USS Constitution by fletch944t - Model Shipways - Scale 1:76 - 1812 Era

[GLakie]

I haven't contacted them either, but at the same time, I haven't cut any of the BHD's loose either, to strike them against the plans. I am curious to see if Model Shipways WOULD be willing to correct the problem and send the corrected sheet 1 and the corresponding BHD's. Really doubt it though. 

 

Cheers 

[fletch944t]

Well GLakie, regardless of whether Model Shipways sends us a new corrected sheet, the problem needs to be identified to them and they need to fix it so that other folks don't experience this as well.

 

I will take this one on. I'll contact them, tell them the problem, and let them know that they need to fix it and offer to send a new corrected sheet 1 to anyone who asks for them. I'm guessing that they may require us to send our old sheet 1 in first as proof that we have a legitimate copy of the plans but, I don't see that as a problem.

 

Fletch

[patrickmil]

Fletch, that sounds like a water tight plan.   I guess I hadn't contacted them because I'm not the most diplomatic person when it comes to oversights like this and then after a while I had just forgot about it altogether.

[fletch944t]

And the plot thickens. I just went downstairs and cut bulkhead M from the laser cut sheets. When I compared it to my photo-copy of the bulkhead pattern, it was definitely different. So, even though I'd already compared my photo-copies to the originals and was convinced they were identical, I laid the bulkhead over the original plans. The bulkhead is different from the plans by the same amount in the same areas as my photo-copy.

 

Next, I carefully traced a pattern of the bulkhead, drew a line down the center, and carefully folded it along the centerline. And, it would appear that the bulkhead is symmetric. The only discrepancy I noted was that the riser on one side is not quite as wide at the top as it is on the other.

 

The other thing of significance to me is that the risers on the laser cut bulkhead are much taller than the risers on the actual plans. That tells me that the plan drawings are NOT the same ones used for the laser cutting machine.

 

I'm not going to contact Model Shipways just yet. Before I do, I'm going to remove all of the bulkheads from the sheets, trace patterns of them, and identify how many are non-symmetrical and by how much. And, I won't do any sanding or make any corrections to the bulkheads until after I'm done. Then, I'll contact Model Shipways to find out what's going on. I can't help but wonder is this is something that MS did intentionally to keep folks from copying their kit. And if so, it's mostly likely an inconsistency that is common to all their kits.

 

Fletch

Edited December 16, 2014 by fletch944t

[russ]

They may have printed the plans to fit on a given size of paper. If the parts are all off by the same amount, it is likely that the parts are all okay and that the plans were printed to fit on a given size sheet and that has altered the scale of the plans.

 

Russ

[fletch944t]

Good point Russ. I'll just have to wait and see what happens when I evaluate the patterns of the actual bulkheads.

 

Normally, I wouldn't have a problem with this assuming the actual bulkheads are correct and the plans are off a bit. However, Model Shipways sells just the plans to folk who want to use them for a scratch build (as they do with all their plans). So basically, the folks who are buying these plans are getting gypped.

 

One might ask, why do you care? Well, I recently sent Model Shipways an email inquiring as to whether it would be possible to purchase a set of the plans enlarged to a bigger scale (for a possible larger scale scratch build down the road). Fortunately, they've yet to respond back.

 

Fletch

[GLakie]

Well-----that's a bit of good news!    That's the reason I was holding off on calling them, because the worst of the problems I found were on the right side of the sheet and could very well have been a printing glitch.   Keep in mind though, since we found these problems in the first sheet, problems with the others might exist as far as scale and tracing parts to be made to fit. 

 

Cheers   

[GLakie]

They may have printed the plans to fit on a given size of paper. If the parts are all off by the same amount, it is likely that the parts are all okay and that the plans were printed to fit on a given size sheet and that has altered the scale of the plans.

 

Russ

The problem isn't with the overall size, rather with symmetry of those bulkheads. When checked with dividers, from the given center-line, they were off from one side to the other. 

 

Cheers 

[russ]

Fletch:

You need to call them rather than email. That will get you someone answering the phone and you will be able to speak directly to them. They may or may not reply to an email. If you want to get an answer, call them.

 

As for the lack of symmetry, if that is the case, then it may because the plans were originally hand drawn and they simply traced only one side of the patterns into CAD for laser cutting purposes. This and the print to fit option have been used by many companies. Yes, they should do better, but any number of variations on these themes is what you may be dealing with.

 

Russ

[fletch944t]

I agree Russ. When I emailed Model Expo once before regarding a technical question, I did not initially get a response. Turns out their tech guy (Frank?) is only at the Model Expo office a few days a week for three hours each day. I got better results calling during the hours he is there and asking for him directly. Otherwise, the lady who normally answers the phone there is no help on technical questions.

 

I had already considered the prospect that they had only copied half of the bulkhead pattern into the CAD program and then simply reversed the image to get the other half for laser cutting. It's actually more precise and saves a ton of time. And, it would go a long way toward explaining how the plans ended up different than the actual parts.

 

Fletch

[robnbill]

However, if they did that the laser cut bulkheads would be symmetrical.

[GLakie]

However, if they did that the laser cut bulkheads would be symmetrical.

The plans themselves are what we've been referring to, and are what's asymmetrical. The bulkheads are ok. What Russ was saying was, the plans, probably were hand drawn, but only one half of each were used in CAD, then flipped over for the other side. It's actually good news because that means the fix will be much easier.

 

Cheers 

[fletch944t]

Hey Rob. I'll attempt to clarify things a bit. I won't know if ALL of the laser cut parts are symmetrical until I remove them from the sheets and trace patterns of them. Right now, the only bulkhead I've removed from the sheets (which I expected to be way off because the plans were way off) actually turned out to be symmetrical. The only thing that we know for sure at this point is that the patterns on the plans for half of the bulkheads are NOT symmetrical.  

 

As I work through this over the next couple of days, I'll have a better picture of what's going on. But, as other MS builders have reported problems with the laser cut parts as well, it's anybody's guess as to what I'll discover.

 

Fletch

[CaptainSteve]

Fletch (and others),

 

Whilst I am yet to even get as far as attaching the false keel pieces together, I HAVE already faired my bulk-head pieces.

(I usually do this before any affixing of parts - coz it's easier when they are laying flat).

 

Now, I may well be very wrong with the following assumption (please tell me if I am), but I was of the belief that the asymmetry on the bulkhead plans was due to the fairing. ie: one half of each bulkhead plan shows the faired side, whilst the other half is the laser-cut shape. (Or, to put it another way, one half shows the extent of maximum fairing, whereas the other side shows the un-faired size of the bulkhead.)

 

This would explain why the bulkhead pieces, themselves, are symmetrical.

 

I will (very anxiously) be pulling my bulkheads out to check them when I get home this evening ...

 

(NOTE: Just in case I am completely wrong, please let MS know that there is at least one very unhappy camper in Australia, as well !!)

Edited December 17, 2014 by CaptainSteve

[CaptainSteve]

Although I am now at home (previous post was logged from work 'puter), I am yet to check my bulk-heads (as they are buried at the very bottom of the kit-box), but I did find the tracings I took at the time. These were taken directly from the plans; tracing one (longitudinal) half onto the actual bulk-head pieces, reversing the paper and then transferring an imprint onto the other side of the bulk-head.

 

If you squint real hard, you can see the difference can then be used as a fairing guide ...

 

 

By the way, don't forget to flip the physical bulk-head pieces for the rear half of your build ...

(Fairing towards aft)

Edited December 17, 2014 by CaptainSteve

[GLakie]

I have yet to cut my bulkheads loose so I can check them myself, but Fletch has checked BHD M, and found it to be fine. From that, I'm hoping the rest are fine as well. What caused the double-take was the lack of symmetry on the plans themselves, but like Russ said, they were probably hand-drawn, and only one-half of each were entered into CAD, then flipped for the other side.

 

Cheers 

[patrickmil]

It's funny how the chain of events turned out with this. I don't usually measure things individually off of the plans to check on things like this. I will usually make copies of the plans for bulkheads and such and then cut the shapes out and apply these to the bulkheads to make sure the parts match up to the plans. I initially assumed that the plans would be right and the bulkheads could be off due to laser cutting errors. I didn't realize until one night I started looking things over and it became apparent that the bulkheads were now off because I had corrected them to the plans. LMAO!!!!! Live and learn...

[fletch944t]

CaptainSteve. Unless I'm completely off base (and I may be) I think one side of the bulkhead plan, as you stated, shows the unfaired bulkhead and the other side shows both. In other words, the outside line would be the bulkhead as cut and the inside line would be the fairing line.

 

Now, let's make a couple of assumptions based on two different cases:

 

For both cases, for the time being, let's assume that all of the laser cut bulkheads are correct. If the side of the bulkhead pattern from the plans is the side that has the fairing line, then all is good. While the pattern as a whole might be off, you shouldn't have any trouble fairing the bulkhead correctly provided you use the centerline on the pattern and the centerline on the bulkhead as your reference points.

 

On the other hand, if the side of the bulkhead pattern that has the fairing line is the side that's off, you could NOT correctly fair the bulkheads because you couldn't get them to line up correctly. At that point, the only way you could correctly fair the bulkhead would be to draw fairing lines on the other side of the pattern by hand approximating as best you could the fairing lines from the "wrong side" of the pattern (assuming those lines are at least close).

 

At the end of the day, even if the fairing lines are on the wrong side of pattern, to me that isn't a show stopper. Assuming you're going to lay out your hull planking strakes using temporary battens, you would at that time most likely identify any discrepancies in bulkhead fairing that needed to be corrected (something you'd be doing anyway).

 

My disclaimer here is that, being a novice to POB construction, I may well be completely out to lunch with these conclusions. So, for those of you who have done this many times before, if I am out to lunch here please, please, please throw the BS flag now before I end up making a huge mistake.

 

Fletch

Edited December 17, 2014 by fletch944t

[russ]

Fletch:

I think what you are talking about is the bevel line for each bulkhead on the plan. Now, I thought you were saying that the outside line of the bulkheads on the plan were asymmetrical. Is that not the case?

 

Russ

[GLakie]

I think you hit the nail right on the head Fletch. Assuming the BHD's are correct, what I was going to do was to just use the fairing edge to mark the lines, then take them down close, and finish fairing on the false-keel the old fashion way, using planking strips.

 

Cheers 

[CaptainSteve]

 

.... At that point, the only way you could correctly fair the bulkhead would be to draw fairing lines on the other side of the pattern by hand approximating as best you could the fairing lines from the "wrong side" of the pattern (assuming those lines are at least close).

 

 

Well ... sort of. Tracings were made from the plans to the fairing line and then transferred to the physical bulkhead. The tracings were then flipped along the the longitudinal axis, and the fairing line on the other side could then be drawn.

 

This pic shows the lines drawn on the stack of bulkheads, before fairing was done ...

 

I will empty out the box this evening when I get home and photograph the bulkhead pieces as they are currently.

Edited December 17, 2014 by CaptainSteve

[fletch944t]

So, CaptainSteve. Let me make sure I understand this correctly. When you did your patterns for the fairing lines, you only traced one half of the bulkhead pattern? (obviously the side with the fairing line).

 

And only traced to the fairing line?

 

The reason I ask these questions is because I got the impression that most folks traced the entire bulkhead pattern to use to check the shape of the entire bulkhead and then cut the pattern back to the fairing line on the one side to use for marking the fairing line after the bulkhead had been checked. It sounds like that's not how you did it.

 

That being said, it's looking like most of bulkhead patterns that have problems are toward the centerline of the boat (fore to aft) and don't get faired anyway. Since it seems like the problems with the bulkhead patterns fore and aft seem to be minor, you would never identify this problem and it's probably not a huge deal anyway.

 

All that being said, the big issue here may be for folks who are building the boat from scratch using the plans. More to follow.

 

Fletch

Edited December 17, 2014 by fletch944t

[CaptainSteve]

So, CaptainSteve. Let me make sure I understand this correctly. When you did your patterns for the fairing lines, you only traced one half of the bulkhead pattern? (obviously the side with the fairing line).

 

And only traced to the fairing line?

 

Yep. That's exactly what I did. Then flipped the paper over and traced the same fairing line, but this time onto the other half of the template. 

I'm fairly (pun intended) sure I still have my card templates in the box. 

Edited December 22, 2014 by CaptainSteve

[fletch944t]

I think what I need to do is, in addition to tracing patterns of all of the bulkheads themselves and checking for symmetry, where there are differences between the bulkheads themselves and the patterns on the plan, I need to identify exactly which side of the pattern is most correct.

 

I say most correct because the risers on the bulkheads patterns don't appear to extend as high as the actual bulkheads (I may be wrong). But, if that is true then technically neither side of the bulkhead pattern is 100% correct.

 

Unfortunately, my wife has committed us to going to a shindig (that would be a party for you folks who aren't from the southern United States) this evening. Consequently, I won't be working on the model this evening. But, I'll be back on it tomorrow.

 

Fletch

[CaptainSteve]

Fletch,

The plot, as you say, thickens. This evening, I poured the contents of my Connie box out, in order to check the bulkheads and, in particular, the fairing which I have already done. 

 

The first thing I did (coz it's what I was most afraid of) was to check each and every bulkhead with my calipers. Measuring from the longitudinal centre line, I checked the width of each. Fortunately, most were precisely spot-on.

 

Unfortunately, "most" ain't quite good enough for me. I found that three of my physical bulkheads are asymmetrical (F, G, R). These are out by 2mm, 2mm and 4mm (respectively) on one side. This is something I will need to bear in mind later on, with a view to padding them out a little where required.  

 

One final point, I did happen to notice that my kit was manufactured in 2010. Is it feasible that yours is from a different production batch to mine ???

 

Incidentally, I did find the templates I made at the time. I neglected to mention that what I had done was to trace HALF of each bulkhead (from the plans) to the fairing (bevel) line. I then flipped the piece of tracing paper along the vertical centre line and re-copied the same bulkhead half to the other side of the tracing paper. This left me with a complete traced bulkhead, but only out to the fairing lines. When all bulkheads had been traced, I glued the pieces of paper to thin cardboard and cut them out.

These card templates were then used to draw the bevel lines onto the physical bulkheads (I've never been any good at free-hand sketching) for fairing.

 

PS: As to risers and heights of them etc etc, I have not even considered these just yet. My only concern re: these, is to protect them (and not move them too much) until I am ready to seriously commence work on my Connie.

("Early 2015, CaptainDen !! Truly, I doth promise !!". And so didst CaptainSteve solemnly swear.)

Edited December 18, 2014 by CaptainSteve

[GLakie]

This is going to be interesting, now that you've mentioned batch dates. Mine was ordered in March and was also back-ordered at the time, so it undoubtedly was a fresh batch. The worst of mine was the 3 on the right side of the plans, B, H, & M, but there were others that were off just a little. So when I get to it, I think I'll make card-templates of the BHD's themselves, fold them in half to find the CL, then trim the differences before fairing. 

 

Cheers 

[fletch944t]

CaptainSteve. I haven't gotten to any of the bulkheads with which you have problems. I was able to work on this a bit yesterday evening and finished the bulkheads on the same sheet as M (M, N, O, P if I recall).

 

Thus far, those bulkheads are symmetrical. However, I've discovered a myriad of problems with the patterns for the bulkheads (assuming the bulkheads themselves are correct). And the problems are on both sides of the pattern. The disturbing part thus far is that the most significant problems appear on the side of the pattern that has the fairing lines.

 

And, as I suspected, on the four patterns I've checked thus far, the risers on the patterns aren't near as tall as the risers on the actual bulkheads. So, technically either none of the patterns are correct or none of the bulkheads are correct.

 

Fletch

[GMO2]

Having a MS Conny in the closet that I figure on getting underway after the Morgan is done, I have been attentive to this discussion quite closely. I decided to dig it out and see if mine exhibited similar problems.Itook the laser cut bulkhead sheets and made a preliminary examination of each with the corresponding pattern drawing.Iestablished a centerline from the kell slot at the level of the gundeck and with my divider checked for symmetry,and then repeated that on the plans pattern,and verified that both were in agreement dimensionally. ,as well as symmetrical.All mine were within a pencil line s width of agreement with each other in both respects at the gundeck level.I figure from there up would be the most aggravating to fix.Ididnt put each bulk head on the plan to verify total agreement all around.Ifigure when the time comes,any problems in the lower body plan will be simpler to either shave off or flesh out as needed.Maybe I lucked out and got one out of a really good run.

[fletch944t]

This evening I finished my evaluation of all of the bulkheads for the MS Constitution kit. Based on my evaluation of the actual bulkheads and the plans, these are my conclusions:

 

1) The actual bulkheads are, for the most part, symmetrical. I had a minor problem with bulkhead "D". However, I feel that was largely due to the extremely poor laser cutting job on that panel. It contained bulkheads "C" and "D" and I had to do an unacceptable amount of work to remove them from the sheet. They were so poorly cut that I ended up having to fabricate one new riser for each of the two bulkheads. Where I ran into problems on the "D" bulkhead was on the right hand side ("D" facing up) right about where the middle of the gun deck will be. When I drew the pattern of the bulkhead after first cutting it, that area did not come out far enough to meet the same part of the line from the other side of the bulkhead. However, after applying a small amount of wood filler, it fixed the problem.

 

2) Even though many of the bulkheads on the drawings are symmetrical, not one is identical to the actual bulkhead associated with that pattern. I say this because all of the risers at the top of each bulkhead are shorter on the plans than they are on the actual bulkhead. Do they get cut down and I somehow just missed it when I was studying the plans?

 

3) Of the 18 bulkheads shown on the plans, 9 are not symmetrical. The thing is, they aren't consistent in how they are asymmetric. Some are off on different sides, some are okay low on one side and off higher up, and one is off on both sides (i.e. one side in too far, other side out too far). Consequently, you can't (in all cases) pick one side of the pattern, copy it, and flip it over to produce the other half and be assured that the bulkhead with be shaped correctly (as I was hoping would be the case).

 

4) Personally, I would not even begin to attempt a scratch build using these plans. To me, it would be a huge waste of time. However, there are probably folks out there who are much more talented than I who have already done it successfully.

 

5) At this point, I'm not convinced that the plans are even useful for fairing the bulkheads. Consequently, I'm considering other alternatives for properly fairing the bulkheads.

 

Well, my next step in the build is to taper the stem and stern posts. I'll work on that tomorrow and afterwards get back to figuring out what I'm going to do about fairing the bulkheads.

 

Fletch 

[GLakie]

   GM02:  When did you get your kit? I ask because right now, I'm starting to think this is some kind of flaw with their printer since the worst of the patterns in my kit are all on the right side of the sheet. BHD's B, H, and M are off by almost 1/8", all on the right side of the bulkhead where it appears to be hand-drawn.

   The confusing thing about all that is the plans themselves were drawn by Ben Lankford back in '97, and unless someone corrected just some of them, and left others, they should all be identical. That's assuming that the originals were kept and run through their printer for each kit. I don't believe Mr. Lankford's around anymore to do any corrections, at least there haven't been any new model ships plans done by him.

 

Cheers