English Flags on a Launching

[catopower]

I've been recently thinking about presenting a British Royal Navy vessel at launch and there are some beautiful contemporary models and paintings that depict English Royal Navy ships before they have any masting or rigging, set up with poles and an assortment of large flags. As far as my understanding goes, these are flown at time of launching. I see Union Jacks, White Ensign and other flags – royal standard maybe?

 

Does anyone know what rules govern what flags are flown?

 

Also, where are poles located? I would expect something fit into place where the masts would later go, but there appear to be flags at a jackstaff at the stern and at the headrails.

 

What about smaller ships? Do these fly fewer flags? Which? And where?

 

 

Clare

 

[Richard Griffith]

Good morning Clare, your questions are important and relavant yet the answers are very complicated.  Flags changed due to changes in sovereigns and who was present at the launch, for example the Lord High Admiral, or various other high officials.  You would need to decide on the period for your project, and specifically the ship you build, then do some research.  I cannot be more helpful with such a large, compicated subject.

 

One book I have that provides much information is "Flags at Sea" by Timoty Wilson, ISBN0112903894.  Another less useful book is "Flags for Ship Modellers and Marine Artists" by Alec A. Purves, ISBN0851772811.  There are others, perhaps even more useful, but I have not needed more info, yet.

 

So, decide on your ship, then find the info on flags.  Good luck and have fun.

 

Duff

[druxey]

This question puzzled me for a while. However, photos of models and paintings of 18th century launches in the NMM clarified this. There is a special ensign staff mounted at the bow just aft of the figure. It seems to be mounted through an eyebolt on the aft side of the lacing piece (between the hair brackets). The flags flown are:

 

Union Jack (bow)

Admiralty flag (fore)

Royal Standard (main)

Union Jack (mizen)

Red Ensign (ensign staff)

 

The ensign staff at the stern appears to be the regular one, and the other staffs are mounted in the mast positions.

Edited January 19, 2015 by druxey

[catopower]

Thank you Duff and Druxey! I still have a number of questions, but I feel better with your replies. I was curious what happens with small ships like a cutter, say. But, it's more curiosity than a practical question that I need to have answered. Would like to understand this at some point.

 

So, Druxey, with your list of flags, I had to find out what the Admiralty flag was, but I found that easily enough. Then, as Duff pointed out, I need to decide on the ship because that might affect which Royal Standard to use. I've been digging around on the Internet and think I finally understand the relevant ones.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Royal Standard changed from Monarch to Monarch from 1707 to 1837. But, from Victoria's time onward, 1837 to present, it has remained consistent?

 

Not to be disrespectful, but the flag makers of old must have gotten quite anxious every time a monarch took ill...

 

Clare

[druxey]

Yes, each monarch had/has their own Standard. You can find the variations for each on the 'net.

 

I doubt if a small vessel would have had much if any ceremony upon launching. I've wondered the same myself: how did they cope with a two or one masted vessel?

[Beef Wellington]

Yes, each monarch had/has their own Standard. You can find the variations for each on the 'net.

 

I doubt if a small vessel would have had much if any ceremony upon launching. I've wondered the same myself: how did they cope with a two or one masted vessel?

 

Look at this link - http://tmg110.tripod.com/royal_std.htm.  Despite the number of different versions, they didn't change every monarch and changes tend to represent major event in the crowns history.  The Georgian period did see an above average rate of change which probably represents the period most of interest to ship modelers, however that is unusual.  Should also be noted that the monarch would fly a different standard in different parts of the realm (e.g. the monarch's standard in Scotland is different to that flown in England)

 

Hopefully this allows you to pick the specific flag in effect at that time.  What is much more complex is the inclusion of the royal standard iconography in various monarchs (and family's) coats of arms.  Heraldry in the UK is incredibly complex, and that is a wholly separate topic!

Edited January 19, 2015 by Beef Wellington

[catopower]

Hi Jason,

 

Thanks for the link and your input. Still looks to me like it changed with practically every monarch until at least the House of Hannover. But, perhaps as you say, those changes were more due to major events since some monarchs of the same family use the same or very similar flags. 

 

I'd found a link that showed the chronological list of monarchs and that's where I got the idea that the Royal Standards changed with each monarch. But, I was mistaken, it was showing their coat of arms, which is different and, as you point out, quite complex.

 

 

Druxey, 

 

As you point out – I can't imagine they flew all five flags on say, a naval cutter, like the Alert I'm building – I don't know where they could put them all. I have noted that two contemporary paintings of the 120-gun HMS Nelson, 1814, show only 4 flags with no Union Jack at the bow. So, we're getting closer and maybe this would be the same configuration on a brig or a ketch? Only conjecture of course...

 

Clare

[druxey]

Your question aroused my curiosity, so I looked through the NMM paintings of ship launches. Apart from the well-known painting of the launch of the Cambridge, 1755 and Buckingham, 1751, with the flags in the sequence already mentioned, I found that this was not invariable (assuming artists' accuracy!).

 

Royal Sovereign, 1701: (BHC2743)

 

Blue Ensign(?) - fore mast

Admiralty Flag - main mast

Red Ensign - mizzen mast

 

Sixth rate 1768: (BHC1045)

 

Union Jack - bow

No flag - fore mast

White Pennant - main mast

No flag - mizzen mast

Red Ensign - ensign staff

 

 

A brig of 1839: (BHC3447)

 

Union Jack - foremast

Red Ensign - main mast

Red Ensign - ensign staff

 

Venerable, 1784: (BHC1869)

 

Union Jack - bow

Admiralty Flag - fore mast

Royal Standard - main mast

Union Jack - mizzen mast

White Ensign - ensign staff

 

Nelson, 1814: (PAH9222)

 

No flag at bow

Admiralty Flag - fore mast

Royal Standard - main mast

Union Jack - mizzen mast

White Ensign - ensign staff

 

Three decker, c.1830: (BHC1915)

 

Union Jack - bow

White Ensign - fore mast

Royal Standard - main mast

Red Ensign - mizzen mast

Blue Ensign - ensign staff

 

I assume that the brig of 1839 was a merchant vessel, not naval. Any other evidence that anyone has come across?

 

[Jason]

_{Perhaps not adding to the conversation in direct response to how flags were flown on a one or two masted vessel, but here is a period example of a ship model bearing flags for launching day:}

 

_{Mermaid, (32) of 1784}

_{NMM reference SLR0318}

 

_{Link: http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66279.html}

 

_{Also on page 63 of Robert Gardiner's The Sailing Frigate:  A History in Ship Models}

Edited January 21, 2015 by Jason

[druxey]

Thanks for giving that url, Jason. I didn't mention the fine model of Mermaid, as the flags she flies correspond with the Cambridge and Buckingham images.

[catopower]

There are some examples in the book on the Kriegstein Collection, and the authors mention that four of the models in their collection were originally fitted with poles for flags.

 

There is a painting of The Edgar, a 60-gun fourth-rate, 1758, that is shown in the book. It actually shows two ships, each with 5 flags. Both ships are flying the same flag arrangement.

 

Union Jack - bow

Admiralty Flag - fore mast

Royal Standard - main mast

Union Jack - mizzen mast

Red Ensign - ensign staff

 

Also two contemporary models of the Greyhound, 6th rate, 1720, and the Diamond, 5th rate, 1723, show the exact same flag arrangement.

 

 

I did note too that the authors wrote a good paragraph about flags at launching. Nothing revealing, but they do mention that launchings were festive events with royalty occasionally present. Do you suppose the Royal Standards are flown because royalty was present?

 

I assume the red, blue, or white ensigns would be flown depending on which squadron they were assigned to. That seems to be consistent across all examples. The Union Jack seems mostly consistent too.

 

Druxey, that foremast flag on the Royal Sovereign doesn't look like a Blue Ensign to me. Yet, it's not quite a Union Jack. Looks like a St. George's Cross on a blue field. Not sure what that would mean.

 

 

Clare

 

 

Edited January 22, 2015 by catopower

[druxey]

Yes, that flag bothered me, Clare. That's why I queried it. I can't find any reference to such a design, though. Artist's license? 

[popeye2sea]

 

There are some examples in the book on the Kriegstein Collection, and the authors mention that four of the models in their collection were originally fitted with poles for flags.

 

There is a painting of The Edgar, a 60-gun fourth-rate, 1758, that is shown in the book. It actually shows two ships, each with 5 flags. Both ships are flying the same flag arrangement.

 

Union Jack - bow

Admiralty Flag - fore mast

Royal Standard - main mast

Union Jack - mizzen mast

Red Ensign - ensign staff

 

Also two contemporary models of the Greyhoune, 6th rate, 1720, and the Diamond, 5th rate, 1723, show the exact same flag arrangement.

 

 

I did note too that the authors wrote good paragraph about flags at launching. Nothing revealing, but the do mention that launchings were festive events with royalty occasionally present. Do you suppose the Royal Standards are flown because royalty was present?

 

I assume the red, blue, or white ensigns would be flown depending on which squadron they were assigned to. That seems to be consistent across all examples. The Union Jack seems mostly consistent too.

 

Druxey, that foremast flag on the Royal Sovereign doesn't look like a Blue Ensign to me. Yet, it's not quite a Union Jack. Looks like a St. George's Cross on a blue field. Not sure what that would mean.

 

 

Clare

 

 

 

Not sure if they would be following the same procedures that we use today but the precedence of the flags in this example does point in that direction.  The Union Jack on the the jackstaff (forward) and the Red Ensign (aft) would have been standard usage for all ships in that squadron.  The highest ranking official present (Royal Standard) would take precedence at the main.  The next in precedence (Admiralty) would be at the fore, and whatever lower official rated the union jack to show his rank would be at the mizzen.

 

Henry

[jbshan]

In 'Restoration Warship' Richard Ensor, author and illustrator, shows Lenox at launch with, in order, Jack, Lord High Admiral, Royal Standard, Union Flag and Red Ensign at ensign staff.  He says it is based on a period source.  Additionally, there is a detail shown from 'A Geometric Plan of Deptford Dockyard', Thomas Milton, 1753 with the flags in the same order.  This may be a standard arrangement.  A vessel with fewer masts might leave off the Union Flag, then perhaps the Lord High Admiral's flag for a single masted vessel.

In the case of Lenox, Charles II was present, but I have read that it was presumed in all cases that the Sovereign was present at the launch of one of his ships so his Standard was flown.  The precedence of the flags would not be altered, in my opinion.

In preperation for the launch of Lenox, arrangement was made for poles to be stepped in the mast locations, presumably from yard stocks, to which they could be returned when the ceremonies were concluded.

As to size, the largest ensign a ship carried would be equal to the ship's beam in the fly, so Lenox's would be in the neighborhood of 40 feet in the fly.  The Jack was equal to the union of the Ensign, so perhaps 20 feet in the fly.  Royal Standards, Lord High Admiral, etc. would be the same as Ensigns.  Flags were sized by 'breadths', the width of the fabric as it came from the loom, which I must do further research on.  There were only standard sizes stocked, so the correspondence between ship's beam and flag size would be approximate.

Ships were issued flags and signals from the dockyard, so, again, as with the poles, they would have come from stock to which they could be returned, and the largest sizes could be used whatever the ship will eventually be issued.

 

Lenox at launch, Ensor's painting:

 

 

Joel Sanborn

Edited January 22, 2015 by jbshan

[druxey]

I would imagine that, whether the sovereign were present at a launch or not, the Royal Standard would be flown as the ship belonged to 'His (or Her) Brittanic Majesty'.

[Beef Wellington]

Excerpt below from those that know (i.e. The Queen's official website)

 

The Royal Standard is flown when The Queen is in residence in one of the Royal Palaces, on The Queen's car on official journeys and on aircraft (when on the ground).  It may also be flown on any building, official or private (but not ecclesiastical buildings), during a visit by The Queen, if the owner or proprietor so requests.  The Royal Standard also used to be flown on board the Royal Yacht, when it was in service and The Queen was on board.

The Royal Standard is only flown when the Sovereign is present.

 

I doubt that the protocol around usage has changed - i.e. the Royal Standard would only be flown if the monarch were present.

[Stockholm tar]

Just one or two other off hand observations to make in the minefield of flags:

1) There have I believe only been about eight changes to the Royal Standard, and I think I'm correct in saying that it has remained unchanged since the reign of Queen Victoria.

2) The Georgian period Standard had a small shield bearing the arms of Hanover superimposed on it (indicating their Germanic origins) and which can be seen today on the figurehead of the Victory; It was removed when Victoria ascended the throne in 1837.

3) Jacks and ensigns previous to 1801 would not have had the diagonal St Patrick's cross. This was only added when Ireland became part of the United Kingdom.

4) The stern ensign at a ship launch was most likely to have been the red, this being the senior ensign (and as is normally shown in various paintings). The particular squadron that a ship was attached to was probably not decided until somewhat later, and of course this frequently changed.

 

I hope this helps.

[jbshan]

Originally, the Standard was flown as the command flag of the Lord High Admiral and could also be used as a signal flag.  Queen Anne reserved its use to herself.  Edward VII restricted its use everywhere to himself, as it is now.

If flown at a launching it could represent either the Sovereign or the Lord High Admiral, ante 1702.  The ship would become the property of the Admiralty upon launch, so the Admiralty or Lord High Admiral could be represented by the Standard as well as the Admiralty flag.

Launches are ceremonial occasions and ships might be decorated with everything in the flag locker.  500 paintings and Van de Veldt drawings can't all be wrong.

Yes, 1/1/01 (1801 that is) marks the change to the current Union Flag including Ireland and the St. Patrick cross.  We must always be careful of the date as many things have changed over the last 500-1000 years, practices, vocabulary and regulations included.  Prior to the 1860s when the White Ensign was reserved to the Navy, the default ensign would have been red, white being only a squadronal color.

Small ships, well, less masts so who knows until we find a picture.

[Beef Wellington]

jbshan - where did your get that information on the Royal Standard?  I think you may be confusing some different things here and I'm not sure how accurate that is.  The Royal Standard has never been used as a command flag in the Navy and certainly never as a signalling device, and has always been used to indicate the personal body of the Sovereign.

[jbshan]

The best documented source I have is an illustration in 'Naval Warfare in the Age of Sail', Brian Tunstall, p. 44.  It is four pages from 'Instructions for the better Ordering his Majesties Fleet, no date (c1688) MOD'

One of the pages shows 'Signalls by which the Generall calls the Capitall Officers &c. on board his Ship.'  The third signal is 'If y^e Standard be put in y^e same place [that is in the mizzen shrouds] then y^e Flags Officers only are to repair on Board.'  It's pretty small and cursive and the spelling is strange to my eye, but that's the gist of it.  The title page is stamped 'Admiralty Office Library'.

Another (p 41) is a page from 'AN INDEX OF THE SIGNALS CONTAINED IN THE INSTRUCTIONS for SAYLING.'   This is variously dated, part printed under James II, part under William and Mary, so 1688-1689.

Just as an example, 'SIGNALS with One Gun.  From the Admiral.  #3 One Gun, and a Union Flag, or Ensign, or Standard, or a Red Flag, or a White Flag, or a Blew Flag, put in the Miffen-Shrouds........ Page 5 Letter 8' NMM, SIG/A/5 and 6

Apparently you would read the signal, go to the correct page, and would learn what one gun and a standard in the Mizzen shrouds meant you to do.

Remember, times change.

 

Joel Sanborn

Edited January 22, 2015 by jbshan

[jbshan]

I just learned that at the same time as the Cross of St. Patrick appeared on the Union Flag, 1/01/01, the fleur de lis vanished from the Royal Standard, so another way to date a painting or other source.

 

Joel Sanborn

[popeye2sea]

Joel, the standard described in your references may not refer to the Royal Standard (of the sovereign).  It could refer to the standard of a particular Flag officer.

[Beef Wellington]

I just learned that at the same time as the Cross of St. Patrick appeared on the Union Flag, 1/01/01, the fleur de lis vanished from the Royal Standard, so another way to date a painting or other source.

 

Joel Sanborn

 

See link here - you can trace the specific picture of the standard to the time period (assuming painting is accurate) http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/9443-english-flags-on-a-launching/#entry279066

[jbshan]

Flag officers would have pendants and ensigns, as rank flags.  'The Standard' refers to the Royal Standard.  The Duke of Clarence, or whoever, might fly his own, on his own ship, but that would probably be called 'His Royal Highness' Flag' and in any event not make it into the general signal book as there probably wouldn't be many ships carrying that flag, maybe only one, whereas the Royal Standard would be part of a full set of flags and signals.  The difference between the two is only a band with labels and not discernible from a distance.  Other lesser personages would have had to satisfy themselves with a normal rank flag.

Remember, too, that we are talking a very large piece of sewing here, perhaps 20 by 30 or more feet.  Most people would not have such a large thing just hanging about to take out to sea with them, and certainly not copies for signaling.

 

Joel Sanborn

[popeye2sea]

Actually, during this period, the concept of the use of repeating ships was rare.  Repeating ships being ships that repeat or answer the signal so that other ships in the line get the signal.  Usually the only ship that made signals, and therefore had a full suite of flags, was the flagship.  Also the signals used and the flags to represent them were promulgated by the Fleet admiral in his standing orders to the fleet prior to sailing.  This was true until very late in the 1700's. And yes, it is correct that the Standard was often used as a signal flag.

[Tadeusz43]

Hi,

Launching of HMS Warrir on diorama in Historic Dockyards in Portsmouth (GB).

 

Tadeusz

[jbshan]

Actually, during this period, the concept of the use of repeating ships was rare.  Repeating ships being ships that repeat or answer the signal so that other ships in the line get the signal.  Usually the only ship that made signals, and therefore had a full suite of flags, was the flagship.  Also the signals used and the flags to represent them were promulgated by the Fleet admiral in his standing orders to the fleet prior to sailing.  This was true until very late in the 1700's. And yes, it is correct that the Standard was often used as a signal flag.

Well, there might be up to nine ships that needed a full suit of flags.  This is in the second half of the1600s.  There was a full admiral commanding each of three squadrons, an admiral of the fleet who flew the red ensign, a vice admiral with white and a rear admiral with blue.  Each of those three had two subordinates commanding portions of each squadron.  The fleet might be up to 80 or more ships, so it was hard to get the signals propagated to all the ships in line.

Yes, each fighting season the Admiral would issue his orders and signals, usually based on those that had been used before, and these morphed into the fighting instructions.

Very nice pic, thank you, Tadeusz.

 

I'll have to look around, I'm sure I have a pic in some book of a smaller, one or two masted vessel being launched.

 

Joel Sanborn

Edited January 24, 2015 by jbshan

[jbshan]

I'll have to look around, I'm sure I have a pic in some book of a smaller, one or two masted vessel being launched.

 

I found one photo, of a model in the NMM.  It is a Royal yacht of about 1674, perhaps a speculative design.

The hull, mast, gaff and lower yard are contemporary, the rest from period pictures.  It has a Jack at the jackstaff, Royal Standard at the truck and ensign (dark colored, B&W pic) on the ensign staff.  Being a Royal yacht, this may be how the flags were flown at the launch of a one-masted vessel, basically leaving off flags for which there is no mast.

 

Joel Sanborn

Edited January 24, 2015 by jbshan

[catopower]

Sadly, I have nothing more to add, but I'm glad I asked the question! I've been just sitting back enjoying this discussion immensely and am finding it very informative.

 

Clare

[jbshan]

I found one more.

A sixth rate, Jack at the jack staff, ensign at the ensign staff, a pole in the main mast partners with a commissioning pendant, nothing at fore or mizzen locations.