Wish list: four-masted barque kit???

[Torrens]

Many, many years ago a German company produced a wooden kit of the four-masted barque Pamir. Since that went out of production the only decent kit of a late development merchant sailing ship is Billings Danmark, and this is not exactly an outstanding kit.

 

How many members, like me, would like to see a quality kit of a four-masted barque, period 1890-1914?

[Stockholm tar]

Scratchy,

 

I think Michael knows the original Pamir was steel, as most were at that period; I believe he means a wooden kit of either her, or another four masted barque.

 

Michael,

 

I agree with you, and it would be nice to see a good quality model of this period. However the kit manufacturers have somehow avoided this type of ship, in favour of popular earlier vessels – with guns! I think the only answer is to scratch build. Since you're in that neck of the woods, how about checking out Harold Underhill's sailing ship plans from Brown Son and Ferguson, in Glasgow. I think he may have produced drawings for the Pamir, I'm not certain, but he produced many other plans of well-known vessels from that era.

[davyboy]

Michael,

 

Can´t see any kit manufacturer producing a kit of a four masted barque these days. I doubt if there would be enough interest to make it financially viable. Do recall that Pamir kit from way back when,think it may have been by Steingräber

 

As Kester has said,have a look at Brown,Son and Fergusons´website. If you would be interested in doing a scratch build they have plans for 6 four masted barques. Archibald Russell. Herzogin Cecilie. Pommern. Mozart. Parma and Queen Margaret. There are also plans for a 5 master   

 

Dave

[RGL]

Model shipways had a 4 masted lumber schooner, bit Bluejacket still have the Notman

[Torrens]

Kester and Dave

 

Thank you. I do know of Underhill's plans - I have many of them! - and the books published by Brown, Son & Ferguson in Glasgow (though the quality of their books has gone down-hill in recent years).

 

I suppose you are all correct in that there wouldn't be enough interest, but I watned to 'test the waters' to see what, if any, the reaction might be to such a wish list!

 

The only solution is to scratch build, but a kit would take some of the effort if only because at present my spare time is very limited!

[Jean-Pierre]

I suppose Pamir and Preussen were the best known winbdjammers, and therefore were the only ones that woul -maybe- be a commercially viable project.

 

Do not forget that to make a good kit of those ships, you need to reproduce many iron bits at a scale that is still manageable (1/100 or 1/96).  And that can only either mean metal mouldings and/or etchings, both meaning (very) expensive kits. I wonder what the new Warrior kit by Billings will be.  Of course, this manufacturer usually uses plastic parts for those difficult wood items.

[Stockholm tar]

 

Thank you. I do know of Underhill's plans - I have many of them! - and the books published by Brown, Son & Ferguson in Glasgow (though the quality of their books has gone down-hill in recent years).

 

 

Michael,

 

I somehow thought you might.

[Mirabell61]

Hello Michael.

 

I found myself in the same Situation 2 years ago, searching for Input, plans, Pictures, etc. of the Pamir.

It was my aim to do a scratch build Version (not a kit) of this 4 mast barque in exact the Version in wich she foundered with a tragic loss in lives way back in 1957.

I have to date a complete model in scale 1:96, plank on Frames with resembled riveted metal plating, full rigging, full sails "braced to the shrouds". feel free to contact me, if you should be interested in  Pictures of the build

 

Nils

 

 

 

[Torrens]

Nils: Your Pamir looks full of character! A very impressive model! It would look perfect in my living room! I would definitely be interested in seeing photos of your build. Thank you for the offer - how should we proceed? Via a PM? Which plans did you use?

 

Nils and Kester: the Passat was the first sailing ship I ever saw, in Travemunde, many, many years ago when on a family holiday, and from that moment onwards my interest in the sailing ship has grown into a passion, though some might call it an obsession...! However, my favourite four-masted barque is the Herzogin Cecilie, with the Passat a very close second!

 

My maritime history book collection includes many books published on the last years of merchant sail. These include books published in the Aland Islands, Finland, France, Italy, Norway, Sweden, the USA and obviously from the UK, so whilst I'm not short of suitable reference material a kit would be far more convenient than scratch building, at least for the foreseeable future! My other problem is that I'd also like to build a 40-gun frigate and...

 

Interestingly, when the late Donald McNarry built his first miniature of the Herzogin Cecilie he complained of the monotony of having to build three identical masts with three sets of identical rigging!

Edited August 9, 2013 by Torrens

[Mirabell61]

Hello Michael,

suggest that you drop a PM to me containing your home address and I can arrange for a CD to be burnt (appr. 570 MB)and sent to you by regular post.
Just by the way...

I see from your favorite interests that you are member of Society for Nautical Research....etc... with it`s associates.

I have been investigating a few years allready in an issue of the foundering of a 5600 tons steamship of which my grandfather was commander at the time she went down without a trace, way back in early december 1922 when there was a full gale in the northern Atlantic appr. 500 miles off the east US Virginia coast.

The mearchant Steamer was The former "Elbing" at that time renamed to "Heinrich Kayser" .

I have been studying historical US newspaper Artikels. Perhaps your Society may have Information on either "Elbing" she was acc. to the Versailler treaty one of the many ships under command of the British Ship Controller from 1919 to 1921, or the "Heinrich Kayser" At the time of her foundering she was owned by a german (Hamburg based) shipping Company and leased by the Gans shippng Company newyork

In honour to my (unfortunately Alltimes unknown) grandfather a built a to my knowledge probably only existing model of the "Heinrich Kayser"

 

Nils

 

 

 

[Stockholm tar]

Nils,

 

A very sad story, but you have made a beautiful model of his ship, and indeed of the Pamir.

 

Interestingly, when the late Donald McNarry built his first miniature of the Herzogin Cecilie he complained of the monotony of having to build three identical masts with three sets of identical rigging!

 

Michael,

 

There's always a downside, isn't there?

 

I'm sure you know of the Pommern, in Mariehamn in the Åland Islands, now a museum to the last days of sail. She is very impressive, and still largely in her original state. A few years ago they made some new sails for her, and she has been under sail on occasion – but also under tow, I think! Ashore near her, is a very interesting maritime museum, full of items salvaged from the vessels of Erikson's fleet, along with documents, photographs, paintings, etc.

 

I'm sure you'd also be interested in the preserved Viking in Gothenburg.

 

 

[Torrens]

Nils

 

I've sent you a PM!

 

The Society for Nautical Research (SNR) does not have a dedicated archive. All material is written by members and, if accepted, is published in the Society's quarterly journal The Mariner's Mirror. This means the only way you could check previous articles is through the annual index, but I doubt very much you will find much information on the Elbing, later Heinrich Kayser. Unfortunately, this is basically too modern for the SNR!

 

I would suggest you contact the National maritime Museum, in Greenwich, London. If they don't hold the records of the British Shipping Controller, 1919-1921, then they might be able to advise on who does have these records.

 

Another option would be to try the monthly magazine Sea Breezes. It is still published, but I haven't taken it for some years now so I'm not sure from where it is now published. It used to be from Liverpool.

 

Hope this helps.

 

By the way, lovely model of the Heinrich Kayser!

 

All the best.

[Torrens]

Hello Kester

 

I know the Pommern well! When I was at the Arts University, Bournemouth, I was also a visiting lecturer at the Malardalens Hogskolan in Eskilstuna. With my colleague in Eskilstuna we designed a project for and about the Pommern. This project, completed by a number of British and Swedish students, comprised a number of large scale full colour illustrations of the ship. The originals of the British illustrations were presented to the ship in the early 1990s. I don't know whether they are still on display. Some were also printed, for sale to visitors to the ship.

 

Because of this project I spent many very happy days in the very beautiful Aland Islands, and in the maritime museum in Mariehamn - still my favourite maritime museum because of its close association with Erikson's vessels! Obviously the reason for these visits was to conduct research. We - myself and the British and Swedish students - were always made very welcome.

 

Once the project was completed the ship and the museum organised a reception and presentation on the main deck of the Pommern. There were about 50 people attending, from Britain, Sweden and the Alands, and we all enjoyed a very traditional Swedish mid summer's meal! It was a memorable occasion!

 

I was allowed to climb the foremast, but unfortunately I could not get higher than the fore main top (my knees wouldn't stop shaking!). I climbed with two of my students, under the guidance of the ship's keeper. One of my students got as high as the fore upper topgallant yard and was quite happy sitting astride the yard with his video camera!

 

I also know the Viking in Gothenburg! I've had a couple of tasty - but very expensive - dinners on board! I understand that preserving these ships is extremely expensive, but it is disappointing that the Viking has not been completely re-rigged.

 

My work at the Arts University, Bournemouth, also included an extensive and in-depth project on the Vasa. My very first visit to Stockholm was on a Sunday and I was determined to visit the outstanding Vasa museum, but didn't know what time it opened or exactly where it was (I only had a vague idea). I eventually came across two policemen in their patrol car. I asked them for directions and which bus to get. They told me and then drove off. About 15 minutes later they came back and told me the museum wasn't open until about 11 so would I like to get into the patrol car and they'd give me a tour of Stockholm! After the tour, and in time for the opening of the museum, they dropped me off at the front door!

 

The Vasa project also involved the design, preparation and completion of a number of large scale, full-colour illustrations, which I understand are still on display alongside the ship (I haven't been back to Stockholm since 1998). Completing the research for this project gave me and my students unique access to every part of the Vasa. It was a fascinating experience - carried out over a number of years.

 

Sorry this is so long!

 

Best wishes.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Torrens

[Stockholm tar]

Michael,

 

I say again – I thought you might!

 

Well, well, small world. I also know Bournemouth well (although I'm not sure I'd recognise parts of it now), as I went to college there when I was younger, although I was mainly at the Boscombe part of the college. However we sometimes visited the Lansdowne buildings, mainly for sitting exams! After leaving college, I worked at Poole Maritime Museum for eighteen years, and lived in Parkstone. I didn't know of the drawings that Bournemouth University drew up for the Pommern, but I remember the beautiful ones they did of the Warrior.

 

Yes, the Åland Islands are delightful aren't they? I agree too, the museum is one of the best of its kind. I must go back there.

 

I also agree the Viking serves some good food, but most Swedes probably wouldn't baulk at the cost! They keep her up very well, and when I was last in Gothenburg in 2010, she looked spick and span. It probably helps too that they have an active organisation to run her, and I have the feeling that many of them are old seamen. Yes, I agree, it's a bit sad that she has little running rigging, but I think this is because of maintainance and the cost of her upkeep.

 

Gothenburg is probably more of a seaport town than Stockholm, which has of course the af Chapman moored opposite the Royal Palace, and is used as a youth hostel. The ship was given a refit one winter a few years ago, at a yard south of Stockholm. The yard they used is completely undercover, being hollowed out from solid rock, and was used by the navy during the cold war period. Naturally the ship had to have her masts and yards removed, but she was given a thorough overhaul, and is now back at her old berth looking resplendent, and good they say for around fifty years.

 

Good story about the Stockholm police, although these days many local Swedes don't quite see them in the same light!

 

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2013 by Stockholm tar

[Mirabell61]

Hello Michael,

thanks for your reply on the NSR.

Relating to the Pamir scratch build you`ll find more in your priv. email

 

So Long

Nils

 

 

Hello Scratchy,

 

thanks for sending a Picture of an other Elbing. I knew that one from my researches allready, but it`s far smaller.

The former Elbing resp. Heinrich Kayser was built in 1898 allready had two funnels and two times twin Boilers in Tandem Arrangement. At that time they made 12 knots cuising Speed !! Was serving the german Australien route for many years, round the cape of good hope or through zues chanal.

[Torrens]

Hello Crackers!

 

I understand what you mean, so I don't think you're throwing cold water on my dreams! I've been dreaming about various ship model projects for as long as I can remember! Indeed, I consider myself an expert in the planning of such projects! It's turning them into reality that's a problem!!!

 

However, in my defence (!!!) I have actually planned and seen some projects through to completion! Besides numerous plastic kits, I've made miniatures (not very well), and a few wooden models: a Danish trawler, a Thames sailing barge, a clinker-bult skiff, etc, etc.

 

There are also about three or four models in my workshop waiting for my attention, but we don't talk about these...

 

Best wishes.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Torrens

[Torrens]

Good morning Kester

 

Very small world indeed! Who did you work with at the Poole Maritime Museum? Was it Frank Thurland - a graphic designer, and my then boss, who was also an accomplished ship model maker (he learnt his skills with Basset-Lowke during the Second World War). And presumably if you were at Boscombe (Shelly Park?) you were on the Foundation Diploma course, when the college was called Bournemouth and Poole College of Art and Design? You may remember Jim Hunter? He became deputy head of what has since been called the Arts University, Bournemouth (they achieved full university status some years ago). He retired last month.

 

The Warrior project you mention was designed by me too! It was my second such project whilst I was at Bournemouth; the first was the SS Great Britain, 1845. I cannot confirm, but I understand that the large Warrior illustration was stored in a damp warehouse in Portsmouth and suffered some serious damage. Where it is now I don't know, but it's very sad if it is indeed damaged. That illustration took four years to complete, by a young Spanish student who knew nothing about ships...

 

Best wishes from a bright but wind-swept Moray Firth!

Edited August 12, 2013 by Torrens

[Stockholm tar]

Michael,

 

I'll send you a PM.

[IAN.P]

Torrens and Stockholm tar .hello while trying to find more about a model construction kit of the "Pamir" I came across this site and having read all the forum  and the fact I live in Poole for the last 70 yrs. it became a small world with your comments about

Bournemouth and Poole. any way I have a  wood " CONSTRUCTO" KIT OF THE "PAMIR"  1~200 witch I got about 25 yrs. ago

all the parts are sewn on to cardboard backing and are numbered as is the detail plans, I am  thinking about putting it on eBay .I read that you wanted a kit so if you send me an email I will send you some pictures of the kit and plans 

regards IAN.