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CaptArmstrong

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  1. Just when I was re-reading this: https://www.google.com/amp/s/periklisdeligiannis.wordpress.com/2013/05/03/quadrireme-quinquereme-decemereme-and-other-multumeremes-part-i-the-colossal-warships-of-the-hellenistic-era/amp/ what an amazing find! I'm sure that as these wrecks are studied further they can yield answers to some long-running debates about rowing arrangements etc of ancient vessels. Though it's unclear if any warships are among the wrecks, they should also be quite useful for better understanding ancient construction techniques. Marvelous stuff!
  2. Gunports on schooners

    There were certainly a number of Baltimore clippers that carried fewer guns than they had gunports, often leaving the ports on the ends empty due to fine lines. For example, the Lynx was pierced for 12 guns but carried between 6-12, and the USS Spark was pierced for 16 and carried 12(both not counting bridle ports). They often acted as both blockade runners and privateers, so on voyages for the former purpose they might carry significantly fewer guns than as a cruiser.
  3. American sailing warships with no plans or records

    Truly amazing find of the Hornet's transom! It certainly looks a lot like the Chesapeake, which I'm beginning to think was a fairly common style of American transom. Bumps her well up the list of my potential 3D builds. Any idea where the figurehead and trailboards drawing might be found? I'd agree that the model doesn't look a lot like the New York, the bow isn't raked enough, among other things. I think it matches up quite well to the Essex though, especially after her refit that made her more wall-sided with fully built up bulwarks. Interesting how low the copper stops on the hull, everything seems in proportion otherwise. Judging by the early images of the united states, she had something like a French dunette: http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/82972.html without upper quarter galleries, but with a two-tier transom and balcony on the upper level. Glad you made it through, Frolick!
  4. American sailing warships with no plans or records

    Be safe Frolick! Note that Chapelle inexplicably squished the quarter galleries on his plan of the class. The windows should reach as far down as the bottom edge of the rearmost gunport, as it does in both the doughty and fox plans (though doughty's was almost certainly the one used, fox's hull lines differed subtly). Though I reckon his outline of the United States' upper tier of galleries is pretty sensible. I've managed to make adjustments to other plans similar to making the quarter galleries deeper, so that might be something to consider before tackling additions. I assume you'll be reconstructing the transom as well, based on the shape of the 74's?
  5. 1814: British vs French Frigates!

    Oh wow! That is fine performance indeed. Are their dimensions on three decks really accurate? They seem not much bigger than a 38 really, and they aren't super full lined either. https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=16574 I don't have my Gardiner books on me, but Wikipedia says 14.4 large and 11 knots close-hauled, citing him. With 18pdrs, I'm sure, but still. 13.5 or 13.7 sounds right for 24pdrs. I believe the fir ones were considered a bit leewardly, being lighter and thus higher in the water. Though false keel additions helped. Also with 28x 24pdrs they may have pitched a bit more than the original, but nothing too severe. They certainly topped the 13 knot mark for speed, but I don't think they quite matched the original. Leander and Newcastle were fast, but not as fast as Endymion. IIRC They were capable of making 13kts large and 10kts close hauled.
  6. 1814: British vs French Frigates!

    Wasn't the initital draft design smaller? Perhaps he heard of their dimensions and enlarged to the as built dimensions. Otherwise I'd say the constitution has much more in common in terms of hull form with Chapman's Bellona/Venus than with either the Forte or the South Carolina. But in dimensions and armament, the forte class was certainly closest!
  7. 1814: British vs French Frigates!

    Well said! I agree entirely with your assessment of frigate designs. I think a mix of large (constitution class) frigates with more numerous Endymion/Pomone class vessels would be a smart balance. Though at a minimum of strength, stowage, and stability to carry 24pdrs, the Endy still had enough to be effective, and her speed was of course outstanding. What is the record on the bellona's performance? I can't say I know much about that class beyond its existence. And I bow to your knowledge of 17th & early-mid 18th century shipbuilding I'm sure many here already (JohnE & Bava especially) know the late 18th century design differences between British and french frigates as well or better than I, but I'll add my take on why french 18pdr frigate design in particular was still viewed as superior in the late 18th/early 19th century by many British officers: Though the British built the first 18pdr frigates-and the french took several years to catch on-when they did they built them at much more effective dimensions for 28x 18pdrs (~150' x 39', compared to 141' x 38'10" for hms Minerva) allowing them an edge in speed and even secondary armament due to the advantage of a higher lwl and L/B ratio, as JohnE mentioned. Of course This was standard design priorities at play for french warships at this point. But it was only compounded by the developments of the 1790s, which saw unwavering British conservatism in the face of some radical french experimentation. British captains realized that their early 18pdr ships were cramped and a touch slow, but the admiralty was only willing to increase the dimensions of this still new type (notably length) very slowly and incrementally. In the 1790s, a foot was added every year or so to each of the surveyor's (rule and henslow) designs, gradually improving speed in each new design by small amounts. (Roughly, and by speed I'm going by the highest quoted speed in sailing reports, from what I've read of Gardiner. ) Still, the dimensions (and iirc speed) of Sane's initial 18pdr design of 1782 was not entirely matched by British designed 38s until 1799 with the active and amazon. About the same time, the amphion and apollo were launched (the lead ships of the most successful 32 and 36 gun 18pdr classes) along with the copied Leda. However, at this moment of embracing reasonable dimensions at last, st Vincent became first lord of the admiralty(1801). He ordered a revival of a 36 gun frigate design from the 1780s, along with the 12pdr Richmond class of 1757 in fir! Just After his administration finished in 1804, the 154' lively (laid down in 1799) was launched, and along with the ledas, apollos, and amphions became the standard designs of the napoleonic wars- reliably matching french speed and size 20 years after the 18pdr type was introduced In the same timespan, the french had experimented with some radical designs, and had been building the more traditional but very effective sane design in numbers. Other 18pdr designs reached 160' long, and employed radically fine lines for such large hulls. The Seine class by Forfait and the even bigger Resistance are prime examples http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66536.html http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66549.html The latter clearly has a highly experimental hull form, and even had screws to adjust the rake of the masts for different points of sailing! A number of these ships turned out to be fine sailers, but I don't think it could be said with certainty that they were better outright than the Sane design or the livelys, especially considering all the design criteria listed by beef wellington. Some of the more experimental ideas weren't repeated or were immediately reconfigured (Forfait's fregate-bombards come to mind) I doubt they had as lasting of an effect on design nor offered as much real design superiority as the earlier innovations of the two Blaise's. But, considering the comparative size of British 18pdr ships at the time, and the radical forms of some french ships, they left a lasting impression of french design and a willingness to think (and build) Innovatively. When you have one of those (or a Sane 18pdr frigate) coming into harbor as a prize, and you can see an enlarged fir built royal Caroline (essentially a 100 year old hull form) on the stocks as part of your nation's response to that threat, it's easy to see how one could wonder if your shipwrights were less able. The British did match the french for speed in 18pdr frigates in time for the napoleonic wars, while likely retaining their traditional advantage in seakeaping, stowage, cost, and strength. But they took their time doing so due to institutional conservatism. During the French Revolution there was a marked disparity between the two nation's frigate designs in innovation along with size and related performance-which left a lasting impression on the British officer corps, contributing greatly to the impression of french design superiority at that time.
  8. If I remember what boudriot wrote correctly, the decorations for frigates were officially standardized during the ancien regime about 1785. The decoration plan for this order is reprinted in history if the french frigate. It is structurally very chunky, without much thought to how the stern was actually framed. It seems that quite rightly no constructors followed it in this regard, but the influence of its motifs and some of the layout can be seen on a number of frigates of the 1780s and 1790s, and I think this accounts for the standardized, slightly more austere look you describe. But there are enough examples of frigates from this era with proper figureheads (rather than the arms of France, or later a Phrygian cap) that it seems quite plausible that the cornilie was built with the carvings described, and that the plan will show them
  9. Looking just wonderful! Having a plan that is so clearly and accurately the standard lines of the class as they were meant to be is really a treasure! I do like what you've done with the decorations on your plan, but I'm really looking forward to seeing what the design of the stern was as ordered! Though if you've seen any other such carving plans for french vessels, I'm sure you're aware that it may turn out to be more of a guideline to be interpreted by the builders at the yard rather than an exact match to the dimensions of the ship.
  10. constitution mcnarry10

    What a fantastic model! An absolutely stunning attention to detail. Any idea what source he used for the transom? This 1836 drawing of constitution's stern (far right, second row) appears to show the same transom(perhaps simplified over time), but with much more understated quarter gallery arches http://modelshipworld.com/uploads/monthly_06_2015/post-15936-0-73522300-1434438090.jpg
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