Talos

I've always liked the design for Boston. Cute little frigate. The plans were probably still in the possession of the original builders at the time since it was a subscription ship.

I've always liked the design for Boston. Cute little frigate. The plans were probably still in the possession of the original builders at the time since it was a subscription ship.

I've always liked the design for Boston. Cute little frigate. The plans were probably still in the possession of the original builders at the time since it was a subscription ship.

So I finally found the booklet William James commented on in his Naval Occurrences book. Unfortunately, it was up for auction last year.
 
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/lot.76.html/2017/books-manuscripts-americana-n09657
 
(6) Manuscript booklet “Dimensions American Ships,” including the Chesapeake, President, Constitution, New York, Adams, and Enterprise, approx. 55 pages with very detailed description of dimensions of hulls, masts, sails, etc., annotated “found in Chesapeake” in pencil on front cover, paper wrappers (4 x 6 3/8 in.; 102 x 163 mm).
 
One of the preview images in the auction is a page of Constitution's spar dimensions.

Thanks, that's more than enough to work with.

Charlie, do you have a higher-res scan of Salvini A like you did with B? I think I'd like to fiddle with it some.

Interesting timing bringing this topic back up. Thanks to a power outage last night due to Hurricane Michael, I just finished Intrepid Sailors: The Legacy of Preble's Boys and the Tripoli Campaign by Chipp Reid last night. Enterprise features prominently in the book so the little schooner has been on my mind again. Hmmm.

Thanks, Charlie. Some of these get posted on my naval thread on Baen's Bar, others get posted in the naval subforum on Civil War Talk (where frolick also posts) like the Plymouth ironclad. This is the first place I've posted the Burrows pics, however. The major reason Plymouth never ended up converted is they ran out of time and she was too deep to make it up the James River when the North recaptured Gosport.
 
https://civilwartalk.com/threads/uss-plymouth.144001/
 
 

I have not posted in this thread in a while, I started my master's degree program in the spring, and it has been eating up a lot of my free time.
 
I have mentioned the brig Burrows several times before, and it still stands out to me. A beautiful, never-built brig of larger than average size and armed with around 14 guns, either 32-pounder carronades or 27 hundredweight 32-pounder cannons. It was designed by Richard Powell, assistant to John Lenthall. I was struck by the resemblance to Lenthall’s ship-sloop Germantown, so I stuck the two together, and it is very apparent. Above the waterline, the two ships are very similar. Similar bows, stern is the same shape, fore- and mainmasts are in almost the same locations, even the boarding ladder. I know US brigs normally didn’t have quarter galleries, but this one was huge, just slightly smaller than the Boston-class ship-sloops. I copied Germantown’s onto Burrows, and they fit perfectly like they meant to be there. All I had to do to tweak it was shorten the top part of the quarter gallery a bit to fit Burrows’ smaller hammock rails. I also included a drawing with her rig. I have a comparison of lines too, but I need to go back and work on it more so I will post it another time.
 
Burrows
LBP: 126'0"
Beam (Molded): 30'0"
Depth in Hold: 14'0"
 
Germantown
LBP: 150'0"
Beam (Molded): 36'0"
Depth in Hold: 16'8"
 


 
 
This is another drawing I did for a prompt over on Civil War Talk. The sloop Plymouth was captured at Gosport Naval Yard by advancing Confederate forces (along with Germantown). There was a proposal to convert her into an ironclad, which fell through. I combined a proposed Confederate ironclad casemate design with Plymouth’s hull. I also included the armament, two 7-inch Brooke Rifles, two 6.4-inch Brooke Rifles, four IX-inch Dahlgren smoothbores, and a pair of boat howitzers.


 
I did up several gun drawings as well, including the top view of Plymouth’s 7-inch rifles on pivot carriages, a new Marsilly carriage for the old IX-inch Dahlgren I drew. I also drew a British 64-pounder MLR of 64cwt and a British truck carriage for it.
 


I did a drawing of Plymouth’s gundeck based on a combination of a plan In Canney’s Sailing Warships book, and a Library of Congress plan of Plymouth’s great cabin. I plan to use this on another forum to illustrate some armament and layout concepts, but right now it is armed with a mix of 32-pounders and 8” shell guns. I’m also including a larger copy of the two guns and their truck carriages.

Thanks, Charlie. Some of these get posted on my naval thread on Baen's Bar, others get posted in the naval subforum on Civil War Talk (where frolick also posts) like the Plymouth ironclad. This is the first place I've posted the Burrows pics, however. The major reason Plymouth never ended up converted is they ran out of time and she was too deep to make it up the James River when the North recaptured Gosport.
 
https://civilwartalk.com/threads/uss-plymouth.144001/
 
 

I have not posted in this thread in a while, I started my master's degree program in the spring, and it has been eating up a lot of my free time.
 
I have mentioned the brig Burrows several times before, and it still stands out to me. A beautiful, never-built brig of larger than average size and armed with around 14 guns, either 32-pounder carronades or 27 hundredweight 32-pounder cannons. It was designed by Richard Powell, assistant to John Lenthall. I was struck by the resemblance to Lenthall’s ship-sloop Germantown, so I stuck the two together, and it is very apparent. Above the waterline, the two ships are very similar. Similar bows, stern is the same shape, fore- and mainmasts are in almost the same locations, even the boarding ladder. I know US brigs normally didn’t have quarter galleries, but this one was huge, just slightly smaller than the Boston-class ship-sloops. I copied Germantown’s onto Burrows, and they fit perfectly like they meant to be there. All I had to do to tweak it was shorten the top part of the quarter gallery a bit to fit Burrows’ smaller hammock rails. I also included a drawing with her rig. I have a comparison of lines too, but I need to go back and work on it more so I will post it another time.
 
Burrows
LBP: 126'0"
Beam (Molded): 30'0"
Depth in Hold: 14'0"
 
Germantown
LBP: 150'0"
Beam (Molded): 36'0"
Depth in Hold: 16'8"
 


 
 
This is another drawing I did for a prompt over on Civil War Talk. The sloop Plymouth was captured at Gosport Naval Yard by advancing Confederate forces (along with Germantown). There was a proposal to convert her into an ironclad, which fell through. I combined a proposed Confederate ironclad casemate design with Plymouth’s hull. I also included the armament, two 7-inch Brooke Rifles, two 6.4-inch Brooke Rifles, four IX-inch Dahlgren smoothbores, and a pair of boat howitzers.


 
I did up several gun drawings as well, including the top view of Plymouth’s 7-inch rifles on pivot carriages, a new Marsilly carriage for the old IX-inch Dahlgren I drew. I also drew a British 64-pounder MLR of 64cwt and a British truck carriage for it.
 


I did a drawing of Plymouth’s gundeck based on a combination of a plan In Canney’s Sailing Warships book, and a Library of Congress plan of Plymouth’s great cabin. I plan to use this on another forum to illustrate some armament and layout concepts, but right now it is armed with a mix of 32-pounders and 8” shell guns. I’m also including a larger copy of the two guns and their truck carriages.

I have not posted in this thread in a while, I started my master's degree program in the spring, and it has been eating up a lot of my free time.
 
I have mentioned the brig Burrows several times before, and it still stands out to me. A beautiful, never-built brig of larger than average size and armed with around 14 guns, either 32-pounder carronades or 27 hundredweight 32-pounder cannons. It was designed by Richard Powell, assistant to John Lenthall. I was struck by the resemblance to Lenthall’s ship-sloop Germantown, so I stuck the two together, and it is very apparent. Above the waterline, the two ships are very similar. Similar bows, stern is the same shape, fore- and mainmasts are in almost the same locations, even the boarding ladder. I know US brigs normally didn’t have quarter galleries, but this one was huge, just slightly smaller than the Boston-class ship-sloops. I copied Germantown’s onto Burrows, and they fit perfectly like they meant to be there. All I had to do to tweak it was shorten the top part of the quarter gallery a bit to fit Burrows’ smaller hammock rails. I also included a drawing with her rig. I have a comparison of lines too, but I need to go back and work on it more so I will post it another time.
 
Burrows
LBP: 126'0"
Beam (Molded): 30'0"
Depth in Hold: 14'0"
 
Germantown
LBP: 150'0"
Beam (Molded): 36'0"
Depth in Hold: 16'8"
 


 
 
This is another drawing I did for a prompt over on Civil War Talk. The sloop Plymouth was captured at Gosport Naval Yard by advancing Confederate forces (along with Germantown). There was a proposal to convert her into an ironclad, which fell through. I combined a proposed Confederate ironclad casemate design with Plymouth’s hull. I also included the armament, two 7-inch Brooke Rifles, two 6.4-inch Brooke Rifles, four IX-inch Dahlgren smoothbores, and a pair of boat howitzers.


 
I did up several gun drawings as well, including the top view of Plymouth’s 7-inch rifles on pivot carriages, a new Marsilly carriage for the old IX-inch Dahlgren I drew. I also drew a British 64-pounder MLR of 64cwt and a British truck carriage for it.
 


I did a drawing of Plymouth’s gundeck based on a combination of a plan In Canney’s Sailing Warships book, and a Library of Congress plan of Plymouth’s great cabin. I plan to use this on another forum to illustrate some armament and layout concepts, but right now it is armed with a mix of 32-pounders and 8” shell guns. I’m also including a larger copy of the two guns and their truck carriages.

I have not posted in this thread in a while, I started my master's degree program in the spring, and it has been eating up a lot of my free time.
 
I have mentioned the brig Burrows several times before, and it still stands out to me. A beautiful, never-built brig of larger than average size and armed with around 14 guns, either 32-pounder carronades or 27 hundredweight 32-pounder cannons. It was designed by Richard Powell, assistant to John Lenthall. I was struck by the resemblance to Lenthall’s ship-sloop Germantown, so I stuck the two together, and it is very apparent. Above the waterline, the two ships are very similar. Similar bows, stern is the same shape, fore- and mainmasts are in almost the same locations, even the boarding ladder. I know US brigs normally didn’t have quarter galleries, but this one was huge, just slightly smaller than the Boston-class ship-sloops. I copied Germantown’s onto Burrows, and they fit perfectly like they meant to be there. All I had to do to tweak it was shorten the top part of the quarter gallery a bit to fit Burrows’ smaller hammock rails. I also included a drawing with her rig. I have a comparison of lines too, but I need to go back and work on it more so I will post it another time.
 
Burrows
LBP: 126'0"
Beam (Molded): 30'0"
Depth in Hold: 14'0"
 
Germantown
LBP: 150'0"
Beam (Molded): 36'0"
Depth in Hold: 16'8"
 


 
 
This is another drawing I did for a prompt over on Civil War Talk. The sloop Plymouth was captured at Gosport Naval Yard by advancing Confederate forces (along with Germantown). There was a proposal to convert her into an ironclad, which fell through. I combined a proposed Confederate ironclad casemate design with Plymouth’s hull. I also included the armament, two 7-inch Brooke Rifles, two 6.4-inch Brooke Rifles, four IX-inch Dahlgren smoothbores, and a pair of boat howitzers.


 
I did up several gun drawings as well, including the top view of Plymouth’s 7-inch rifles on pivot carriages, a new Marsilly carriage for the old IX-inch Dahlgren I drew. I also drew a British 64-pounder MLR of 64cwt and a British truck carriage for it.
 


I did a drawing of Plymouth’s gundeck based on a combination of a plan In Canney’s Sailing Warships book, and a Library of Congress plan of Plymouth’s great cabin. I plan to use this on another forum to illustrate some armament and layout concepts, but right now it is armed with a mix of 32-pounders and 8” shell guns. I’m also including a larger copy of the two guns and their truck carriages.

Not sure if it will have hull lines, but you'll want to get this book. I have the other books in the series and they're spectacular. https://www.amazon.com/French-Battleships-World-War-One/dp/1591146399

Indeed, the Cruizer-class brig-sloop and even the tiny Archer-class gunbrig both have capstans at least, otherwise even the smallest vessel should have a windlass at least.
 

Indeed, the Cruizer-class brig-sloop and even the tiny Archer-class gunbrig both have capstans at least, otherwise even the smallest vessel should have a windlass at least.
 

Indeed, the Cruizer-class brig-sloop and even the tiny Archer-class gunbrig both have capstans at least, otherwise even the smallest vessel should have a windlass at least.
 

Not sure if it will have hull lines, but you'll want to get this book. I have the other books in the series and they're spectacular. https://www.amazon.com/French-Battleships-World-War-One/dp/1591146399

Not sure if it will have hull lines, but you'll want to get this book. I have the other books in the series and they're spectacular. https://www.amazon.com/French-Battleships-World-War-One/dp/1591146399

Pretty much rigged the same as it had been before. The biggest shift in broadside guns (besides the newer guns themselves) was the shift from the old-style four-wheel truck carriage to the two-wheeled Marsilly carriage before the war. This design meant they could shove a wheeled handspike under the rear of the gun and easily rotate even a big gun like a large Dahlgren from side to side in the port or even move it from one side of the ship like the other. They could also be mounted on pivot carriages as well of course.
 
Here is a great shot of a Dahlgren in a Marsilly carriage, this one mounted on the deck of USS Hunchback, a converted ferry.
The older-style truck carriage was still around too though, as seen here on the USS Thomas Freeborn.

There are plenty of photographs, drawings, gunnery manuals, and ordnance instructions from the period. Certainly enough to know for sure.

Pretty much rigged the same as it had been before. The biggest shift in broadside guns (besides the newer guns themselves) was the shift from the old-style four-wheel truck carriage to the two-wheeled Marsilly carriage before the war. This design meant they could shove a wheeled handspike under the rear of the gun and easily rotate even a big gun like a large Dahlgren from side to side in the port or even move it from one side of the ship like the other. They could also be mounted on pivot carriages as well of course.
 
Here is a great shot of a Dahlgren in a Marsilly carriage, this one mounted on the deck of USS Hunchback, a converted ferry.
The older-style truck carriage was still around too though, as seen here on the USS Thomas Freeborn.

There are plenty of photographs, drawings, gunnery manuals, and ordnance instructions from the period. Certainly enough to know for sure.

Pretty much rigged the same as it had been before. The biggest shift in broadside guns (besides the newer guns themselves) was the shift from the old-style four-wheel truck carriage to the two-wheeled Marsilly carriage before the war. This design meant they could shove a wheeled handspike under the rear of the gun and easily rotate even a big gun like a large Dahlgren from side to side in the port or even move it from one side of the ship like the other. They could also be mounted on pivot carriages as well of course.
 
Here is a great shot of a Dahlgren in a Marsilly carriage, this one mounted on the deck of USS Hunchback, a converted ferry.
The older-style truck carriage was still around too though, as seen here on the USS Thomas Freeborn.

There are plenty of photographs, drawings, gunnery manuals, and ordnance instructions from the period. Certainly enough to know for sure.

Pretty much rigged the same as it had been before. The biggest shift in broadside guns (besides the newer guns themselves) was the shift from the old-style four-wheel truck carriage to the two-wheeled Marsilly carriage before the war. This design meant they could shove a wheeled handspike under the rear of the gun and easily rotate even a big gun like a large Dahlgren from side to side in the port or even move it from one side of the ship like the other. They could also be mounted on pivot carriages as well of course.
 
Here is a great shot of a Dahlgren in a Marsilly carriage, this one mounted on the deck of USS Hunchback, a converted ferry.
The older-style truck carriage was still around too though, as seen here on the USS Thomas Freeborn.

There are plenty of photographs, drawings, gunnery manuals, and ordnance instructions from the period. Certainly enough to know for sure.

Indeed. Independence, the worst of the first generation American '74s, was said to be totally useless at sea because her lower gunports were only 3'10" from the water amidship when fully loaded with cannons, ammunition, and six months of provisions. There's zero way Victory was less than a foot higher than this when launched empty! Independence /did/ have to sail with her lower ports caulked shut during her time overseas too, Victory never had to.
 
 
For something of the size of a frigate or ship of the line, water coming in over the bow wasn't a major issue. It was for the small open-decked sloops and brigs however. Indeed, the Cherokee-class brigs were often likened to a rock at half-tide because the water kept coming onto the deck in any kind of weather. There were attempts to rectify it, including the Cherokees having a slight upwards kink at the bow, and other sloops like the Cruizers adding in a forecastle platform both to cut down on the water coming in over the deck as well as provide a better area for the sail handlers to work from (and I presume better for handling the anchors too). That's why you'll see plenty of sloops with a forecastle but no quarterdeck. One of the modifications to the Cherokee-class HMS Beagle when she was refit into an exploration ship was to install a low forecastle platform specifically to cut down on the water coming in over the bow. It was only a few feet above deck level, so useless for doing much under it.

I'm not sure. It's from the collection of the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich and only described in generic terms, the only other info is that it's from the late 18th century (I'd say into the early 19th century even), which fits the fittings, the mizzen spanker, and lack of forecastle bulwarks.
 
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/112664.html
 
I did notice the sweep ports between the gunports, which are rarely seen in depictions of frigates this large and this late.