fletch944t

Here are a couple of pictures of the stern post taper and the stem. I'm not so sure I don't need to taper the stem a bit more. But, for now I'm going to leave it as is.

So, here's a question for all of the scratch builders out there. What is the fewest number of power tools you've used for a scratch build?

Master.... we are not worthy.....

I'll try and post a few pictures tomorrow. You can't really tell a lot from them but, I did finish tapering the stem and stern posts. I would have had more time to post some pictures but, my better half keeps hounding me to get the house ready for some holiday that's coming up. Anyway, Happy Festivus. Gotta go finish putting up the Festivus pole. Fletch

I have numerous sets of plans (both AOS and the disc of drawings from the Constitution museum) to use as resources for future builds. But, regardless of what resource I use, I will eventually have to convert it to the correct scale for the build. At the time, the MS plans were convenient to work with because I was making copies of them to use for checking the bulkheads and marking the fairing lines anyway. And, because the MS plans were already in "bulkhead" format, working with them instead of developing a new bulkhead plan from the loft and line drawings in the original plans was even more desirable (i.e. for future builds). So, as I was copying them, I also made a scan of them which I later enlarged. Unfortunately, because the MS plans are not accurate, I'll have to go back and pick a different set of plans to use for future builds and develop bulkheads from scratch (albeit loosely based on the current MS bulkhead plan). The good news is, I don't really have to worry about this at all for several years. And, since I'd like to do one more kit build after this one before I attempt a scratch build, probably several years beyond that. So, I can now proceed with my current Constitution build as is since I'm confident that I have a set of symmetrical bulkheads. So, as I mentioned earlier, my next step is to taper the stem and stern posts. I'll also fit the bulkheads to make sure there are no problems. Then, I'll bash the bulkheads to begin construction on the gun deck. Fletch

I received my kit on November 3rd of this year. And, I have noticed that the boxes that kits are being shipped in now are different that earlier shipped kits. However, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Since the bulkheads themselves are symmetrical, I'm not worried about the plans for THIS build. However, like several others on MSW, I was considering using the plans for a scratch build of one of the other US Frigates down the road. Additionally, I had already contacted Model Expo to see if it would be possible to purchase a set of the Constitution plans enlarged to 1:64 scale for a future larger scale scratch build of the Constitution. Since I never heard back from the Model Expo folks, I had started experimenting with scanning the individual bulkheads and expanding them to a size appropriate for 1:64 scale. And, until I discovered this problem with the plans I was pretty happy with the results I was seeing. I was even to the point of printing out the full sheets on a plotter (except our plotter was out of service). Consequently, my only choice now may be to retain my hand drawn patterns, scan them, and then enlarge those to be appropriate for 1:64 scale. Fletch

This evening I finished my evaluation of all of the bulkheads for the MS Constitution kit. Based on my evaluation of the actual bulkheads and the plans, these are my conclusions: 1) The actual bulkheads are, for the most part, symmetrical. I had a minor problem with bulkhead "D". However, I feel that was largely due to the extremely poor laser cutting job on that panel. It contained bulkheads "C" and "D" and I had to do an unacceptable amount of work to remove them from the sheet. They were so poorly cut that I ended up having to fabricate one new riser for each of the two bulkheads. Where I ran into problems on the "D" bulkhead was on the right hand side ("D" facing up) right about where the middle of the gun deck will be. When I drew the pattern of the bulkhead after first cutting it, that area did not come out far enough to meet the same part of the line from the other side of the bulkhead. However, after applying a small amount of wood filler, it fixed the problem. 2) Even though many of the bulkheads on the drawings are symmetrical, not one is identical to the actual bulkhead associated with that pattern. I say this because all of the risers at the top of each bulkhead are shorter on the plans than they are on the actual bulkhead. Do they get cut down and I somehow just missed it when I was studying the plans? 3) Of the 18 bulkheads shown on the plans, 9 are not symmetrical. The thing is, they aren't consistent in how they are asymmetric. Some are off on different sides, some are okay low on one side and off higher up, and one is off on both sides (i.e. one side in too far, other side out too far). Consequently, you can't (in all cases) pick one side of the pattern, copy it, and flip it over to produce the other half and be assured that the bulkhead with be shaped correctly (as I was hoping would be the case). 4) Personally, I would not even begin to attempt a scratch build using these plans. To me, it would be a huge waste of time. However, there are probably folks out there who are much more talented than I who have already done it successfully. 5) At this point, I'm not convinced that the plans are even useful for fairing the bulkheads. Consequently, I'm considering other alternatives for properly fairing the bulkheads. Well, my next step in the build is to taper the stem and stern posts. I'll work on that tomorrow and afterwards get back to figuring out what I'm going to do about fairing the bulkheads. Fletch

Well. I wouldn't be one of the ones asking why bother? I too am looking at interior lights. From my perspective, if you model the Captain's and Commodore's quarters leaving both sets of doors open, you could see a lot of detail on the gun deck through the stern windows - especially if the gun deck is illuminated. So, proceed on.

That's just beautiful Patrick. I too plan to fully model the entire gun deck. And, of course it's something we have to do very early on in the build. That's one of the reasons I started working on the 24 lb long guns so early. Again, I like the way you're handling the framing for the Captain's Quarters. And, I'll be watching closely as I'm interested to see how you're going to do the overhead framing in that area (i.e. the support for the spar deck). I was thinking of doing something similar to the framing you're doing except including the overhead framing as an integral part of the individual frames. However, I don't know if that's feasible. I'm guessing that on the sides of each of the outside frames you're going to shape a small filler block for the undersides of the quarter galleries? It's looking great so far. Keep up the good work. Fletch

Hi Patrick, I presume you're doing this because you're interested in fully modeling the Captain's quarters? If so, I knew that I was going to be headed in this direction but, I had no idea how I was going to get there. Now I do. Thanks for this. Fletch

CaptainSteve. I haven't gotten to any of the bulkheads with which you have problems. I was able to work on this a bit yesterday evening and finished the bulkheads on the same sheet as M (M, N, O, P if I recall). Thus far, those bulkheads are symmetrical. However, I've discovered a myriad of problems with the patterns for the bulkheads (assuming the bulkheads themselves are correct). And the problems are on both sides of the pattern. The disturbing part thus far is that the most significant problems appear on the side of the pattern that has the fairing lines. And, as I suspected, on the four patterns I've checked thus far, the risers on the patterns aren't near as tall as the risers on the actual bulkheads. So, technically either none of the patterns are correct or none of the bulkheads are correct. Fletch

I think what I need to do is, in addition to tracing patterns of all of the bulkheads themselves and checking for symmetry, where there are differences between the bulkheads themselves and the patterns on the plan, I need to identify exactly which side of the pattern is most correct. I say most correct because the risers on the bulkheads patterns don't appear to extend as high as the actual bulkheads (I may be wrong). But, if that is true then technically neither side of the bulkhead pattern is 100% correct. Unfortunately, my wife has committed us to going to a shindig (that would be a party for you folks who aren't from the southern United States) this evening. Consequently, I won't be working on the model this evening. But, I'll be back on it tomorrow. Fletch

Couldn't help but chime in on the bandsaw thread. Ironically, the day Marcus posted his message about bandsaws I was reading an article in a special edition of Wood Magazine on bandsaws. The article was titled "Make Any Bandsaw a Peak Performer". I won't go into a lot of detail but, the article was written by Michael Fortune who has a total of five bandsaws in his shop. He considers his 14" Ridgid to be equal to his most expensive saws in precision cutting. A picture in the article shows Michael half sawing a 2x6 board on his Ridgid bandsaw. According to Michael, it's really more about buying a really good blade (most saws come with inferior blades) and proper setup than it is about the saw itself. Fletch

So, CaptainSteve. Let me make sure I understand this correctly. When you did your patterns for the fairing lines, you only traced one half of the bulkhead pattern? (obviously the side with the fairing line). And only traced to the fairing line? The reason I ask these questions is because I got the impression that most folks traced the entire bulkhead pattern to use to check the shape of the entire bulkhead and then cut the pattern back to the fairing line on the one side to use for marking the fairing line after the bulkhead had been checked. It sounds like that's not how you did it. That being said, it's looking like most of bulkhead patterns that have problems are toward the centerline of the boat (fore to aft) and don't get faired anyway. Since it seems like the problems with the bulkhead patterns fore and aft seem to be minor, you would never identify this problem and it's probably not a huge deal anyway. All that being said, the big issue here may be for folks who are building the boat from scratch using the plans. More to follow. Fletch

CaptainSteve. Unless I'm completely off base (and I may be) I think one side of the bulkhead plan, as you stated, shows the unfaired bulkhead and the other side shows both. In other words, the outside line would be the bulkhead as cut and the inside line would be the fairing line. Now, let's make a couple of assumptions based on two different cases: For both cases, for the time being, let's assume that all of the laser cut bulkheads are correct. If the side of the bulkhead pattern from the plans is the side that has the fairing line, then all is good. While the pattern as a whole might be off, you shouldn't have any trouble fairing the bulkhead correctly provided you use the centerline on the pattern and the centerline on the bulkhead as your reference points. On the other hand, if the side of the bulkhead pattern that has the fairing line is the side that's off, you could NOT correctly fair the bulkheads because you couldn't get them to line up correctly. At that point, the only way you could correctly fair the bulkhead would be to draw fairing lines on the other side of the pattern by hand approximating as best you could the fairing lines from the "wrong side" of the pattern (assuming those lines are at least close). At the end of the day, even if the fairing lines are on the wrong side of pattern, to me that isn't a show stopper. Assuming you're going to lay out your hull planking strakes using temporary battens, you would at that time most likely identify any discrepancies in bulkhead fairing that needed to be corrected (something you'd be doing anyway). My disclaimer here is that, being a novice to POB construction, I may well be completely out to lunch with these conclusions. So, for those of you who have done this many times before, if I am out to lunch here please, please, please throw the BS flag now before I end up making a huge mistake. Fletch

Hey Rob. I'll attempt to clarify things a bit. I won't know if ALL of the laser cut parts are symmetrical until I remove them from the sheets and trace patterns of them. Right now, the only bulkhead I've removed from the sheets (which I expected to be way off because the plans were way off) actually turned out to be symmetrical. The only thing that we know for sure at this point is that the patterns on the plans for half of the bulkheads are NOT symmetrical. As I work through this over the next couple of days, I'll have a better picture of what's going on. But, as other MS builders have reported problems with the laser cut parts as well, it's anybody's guess as to what I'll discover. Fletch

I agree Russ. When I emailed Model Expo once before regarding a technical question, I did not initially get a response. Turns out their tech guy (Frank?) is only at the Model Expo office a few days a week for three hours each day. I got better results calling during the hours he is there and asking for him directly. Otherwise, the lady who normally answers the phone there is no help on technical questions. I had already considered the prospect that they had only copied half of the bulkhead pattern into the CAD program and then simply reversed the image to get the other half for laser cutting. It's actually more precise and saves a ton of time. And, it would go a long way toward explaining how the plans ended up different than the actual parts. Fletch

Good point Russ. I'll just have to wait and see what happens when I evaluate the patterns of the actual bulkheads. Normally, I wouldn't have a problem with this assuming the actual bulkheads are correct and the plans are off a bit. However, Model Shipways sells just the plans to folk who want to use them for a scratch build (as they do with all their plans). So basically, the folks who are buying these plans are getting gypped. One might ask, why do you care? Well, I recently sent Model Shipways an email inquiring as to whether it would be possible to purchase a set of the plans enlarged to a bigger scale (for a possible larger scale scratch build down the road). Fortunately, they've yet to respond back. Fletch

And the plot thickens. I just went downstairs and cut bulkhead M from the laser cut sheets. When I compared it to my photo-copy of the bulkhead pattern, it was definitely different. So, even though I'd already compared my photo-copies to the originals and was convinced they were identical, I laid the bulkhead over the original plans. The bulkhead is different from the plans by the same amount in the same areas as my photo-copy. Next, I carefully traced a pattern of the bulkhead, drew a line down the center, and carefully folded it along the centerline. And, it would appear that the bulkhead is symmetric. The only discrepancy I noted was that the riser on one side is not quite as wide at the top as it is on the other. The other thing of significance to me is that the risers on the laser cut bulkhead are much taller than the risers on the actual plans. That tells me that the plan drawings are NOT the same ones used for the laser cutting machine. I'm not going to contact Model Shipways just yet. Before I do, I'm going to remove all of the bulkheads from the sheets, trace patterns of them, and identify how many are non-symmetrical and by how much. And, I won't do any sanding or make any corrections to the bulkheads until after I'm done. Then, I'll contact Model Shipways to find out what's going on. I can't help but wonder is this is something that MS did intentionally to keep folks from copying their kit. And if so, it's mostly likely an inconsistency that is common to all their kits. Fletch

Well GLakie, regardless of whether Model Shipways sends us a new corrected sheet, the problem needs to be identified to them and they need to fix it so that other folks don't experience this as well. I will take this one on. I'll contact them, tell them the problem, and let them know that they need to fix it and offer to send a new corrected sheet 1 to anyone who asks for them. I'm guessing that they may require us to send our old sheet 1 in first as proof that we have a legitimate copy of the plans but, I don't see that as a problem. Fletch

Hey George. Although you see the term "table top" or "bench top" applied to many different power tools (most commonly table saws and band saws), it is a bit of a misnomer. Frequently, you'll see anything that's mounted on a stand classified as a "permanent" or "stationary" tool. However, if you look at some of the advertisements on line, you'll see the EXACT same saw marketed as both table top and stationary. The only difference is they slap a stand on it to classify it as stationary. I've always thought of "stationary" equipment as something you couldn't move around easily. But, if you check out Sears, some of their largest band saws and table saws which are on stands also have wheels on them and can be moved around with little effort. So, I guess you have to take the term table top with a grain of salt. Yes, I'd personally consider a 9" or 10" band saw a table top model. And yes, I've seen 9" and 10" band saws marketed as both. But heck, using the logic of some of these marketing folks, I could take my 12" compound miter saw off it's rolling stand, slap it on my work bench, and call it a table top saw. Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now. Just venting a little in preparation for the holiday season. Fletch

Thanks GLakie. Do you know if anyone has brought this to Model Shipway's attention? And, if they have, I wonder why it hasn't been fixed? BTW, in my patterns, bulkheads B, C, G, H, I, L, M, N, and O are off. Interesting that the ones that are off are grouped together. It may be possible to modify all of the bulkheads except M. It's way too far off. As a minimum, I'll end up cutting a new bulkhead for it. Fletch

Well. It seems that I may have run across an interesting problem. I was reading through some build logs yesterday and I started reading though an MS Constitution build log by "patrickmil". It seems that during his bulkhead assembly, Patrick discovered that a number of the bulkheads were not symmetrical. He ended up having to add material to a large number of his bulkheads to get them to be symmetrical on both sides of the false keel. He also discovered that the bulkhead patterns on his prints were off as well. As it turns out, I recently made copies of all the bulkhead patterns from the prints to check my own bulkheads when I cut them out. Not being one to simply let something like this pass, I decided to check my own prints for symmetry. Turns out that of the eighteen bulkhead patterns, nine of them are off to some degree. Most of them aren't bad but, bulkhead "M" isn't even close. In fact, it's so far off, it laughable. I've yet to cut the bulkheads out and check them. However, I'd actually be surprised if they weren't off. As I pointed out to Patrick, I have this really bad feeling that I'm going to end up cutting at least nine new bulkheads. If that's the case, I am not going to be a happy camper. Fletch

Yeah. I got a good amount of holly and boxwood from Jeff. I wasn't sure exactly what I needed and how much so I got everything 1/16". And, with what I bought, I honestly don't think I have enough to do the entire hull. I may end up having to sand part of it down to use on the transom and above the wales and use the basswood I have where the hull will get coppered. But, if Jeff is going to take orders till December 31st, I may sneak another order in. I won't need the hull planking for a while yet anyway.

GLakie, I've been thinking about it a bit more and, as I see it there are three options: Sand down the 1/16" hull planking strips provided in the kit to 1/32" and reduce the dimensions of the bulkheads by 1/32". Then the outer planking could be 1/16". Since I've already purchased 1/16" strips to replace the basswood strips provided in the kit, this is the most likely double plank option I would choose. Sand down the 1/16" strips provided in the kit to 1/32" and likewise sand down the 1/16" I purchased to 1/32". In effect, throw away half of the wood I purchased. Single plank the hull. Single planking is looking better and better. Fletch