CDR_Ret

Also, I have in my files this painting by Charles Vickery, who was well known for his accurate rendering of marine subjects. It shows Galilee in the foreground with green bottom paint. The model of the Galilee that was offered by his gallery also shows a green bottom. So I'm inclined to go with a dark green. (The model was more of an approximation than true to scale. There are many discrepancies in the details compared to the actual vessel.)
 
To be completely objective, he also painted Galilee with a red bottom, so perhaps the color doesn't really matter.

New info provided by a photographer friend might be of technical and historical interest.
 
The best black and white film used around 1900 was called orthochromatic film. It was sensitive to blue and green/yellow light but was blind to red light. So red would show up in images as nearly black. Green would be a shade of gray. Based on this information, I suspect the hull in the dry dock photo probably has red paint.
 
Earlier film before 1884 was sensitive to mainly blue and UV light. Panchromatic films sensitive to red light were available in the 1890s, but only on glass plates manufactured in Germany. Based on my grandfather's diaries, and the arduous nature of the geomagnetic field work, I suspect DTM/CIW required the use of emulsion film, which was available only in ortho- or isochromatic form.
 
Attached is another Vickery painting showing Galilee in a red hull.
  Terry

Also, I have in my files this painting by Charles Vickery, who was well known for his accurate rendering of marine subjects. It shows Galilee in the foreground with green bottom paint. The model of the Galilee that was offered by his gallery also shows a green bottom. So I'm inclined to go with a dark green. (The model was more of an approximation than true to scale. There are many discrepancies in the details compared to the actual vessel.)
 
To be completely objective, he also painted Galilee with a red bottom, so perhaps the color doesn't really matter.

John,
 
I suspect you are correct, but I wanted to get a second opinion on the bottom covering. The only two U.S. West coast ships I know of that are contemporaries of Galilee are the Balclutha and the C. A. Thayer, both located at SFMHP. Photos of their restorations show them with the dull red bottom paint. My concern is that in the 1907 photo, the paint looks darker than might be the case with the red lead.
 
Attached are images of NRG sample paint chips for vessels of this era; one is colored and the other in grayscale. Not sure of the color response of the original film, but the grayscale chips suggest a darker color. This is why I could use some Pacific West Coast expertise before making any decisions, granted that this step is pretty far down the pike at this point.
 
Terry

Pertaining to my research on Matthew Turner's Galilee, I have a drydock photo of her taken on the bow. A very nice reference photo, even if it's in B&W. (See the detail below.)
 
The image is grainy, and the hull below the boot top is mostly in shadow, but there are some curvilinear shadows near the bow that suggest copper sheathing rather than just planking. The right-hand image indicates what I am referring to. But this doesn't make sense, since the bottom clearly has been painted.
 
So, are those lines just unfair hull planking or copper plating that has been painted over? My research turned up a history of antifouling methods, and it claimed that vessels employed in the tropics relied on copper to keep the worms at bay. Since Galilee was used in the San Francisco to Tahiti trade before her employment with DTM/CIW as a research vessel, It's likely that she was coppered.
 
Anyone have thoughts on this?
 
As an aside, what would be the likely color for the bottom paint for a West Coast sailing merchant c. 1890-1910?
 
Terry
 

Larry,
 
I stand corrected on the 'Bama. That would make a more interesting (and challenging) model to work on.
 
If you are going to model directly on a drawing, you still need a spreadsheet or table with offset-like (x, y, z) intersections to enter into the control net point editor. Otherwise, you will end up with a 2D model.
 
My suggested sequence to start this project DELFTShip would be the following, though this isn't the only way to proceed.
Create separate profile, plan, and body view JPG files, all at the same scale. You will need a photo editor to do this. Make them as high resolution as you can (300+ dpi). Create a new project in DELFTShip. I don't have the program in front of me right now, but I think you just click on the white blank page icon in the upper left corner. Follow the instructions and save it. The 7.X version of the program has a Windows-like ribbon. Under the Home tab, click on the Project Settings button. Fill in the General stuff as desired. The really important thing to get right at the beginning is the type of units used. Select either metric or imperial (English), according to your plans. If you forget to do this and leave it in metric (default), when you go back and try to switch to English, it does a dimensional conversion, not numerical. In other words, if you create a model 150 feet long in the meters setting, and then realize you want it to be in feet, and switch the units here in the Settings dialog, the model is now 3.281 ft/m X 150 m, or 492 feet long! All is not lost though. Just use the Scaling feature on the Tools tab and scale length, width, and height by 1/3.281, or 0.3047. Still in the Settings dialog, click on the Main Particulars tab and fill in the Length or LBP (distance between aft face of stern post at LWL to intersection of stem rabbet at LWL), Beam (maximum moulded width), and LWL Draft to baseline. Galilee's baseline was the keel rabbet line. You will need to determine your plan's waterline baseline for this data. The Mid-ship location is set by default at 50% of Length, but if you have a station at that point, I would select a position between stations. This item determines at what point the program splits the stations between the front and stern halves of the body plan view. It should correspond to your body plan image you will be using. You also need to select the Longitudinal reference point. It defaults to the midpoint, but many plans use either the AP or the FP for reference. Galilee's plan used its vertical stern post for the reference. (I recommend the AP because all x values will be positive forward of this point.) The rest of the settings are of little interest to the modeler (IMHO). I can't recall exactly, but I think there is a default model in the new project window. Just select all and delete the model. The next step would be to add the three images in their appropriate views. This is done under the Tools tab. The process is addressed under Section 3.4 of the manual, but it's pretty vague as to the order of operations to make the process reliable and straightforward. I need to be looking at the program to explain this, so it will have to wait. For Bruce, I think it was more the fact that I held an eagle feather in my left hand, and shook the rattles twice before clicking Accept that made the images go where they were supposed to.  Some general hints on hull modeling from scratch: Building a model using a Control Net is not the same thing as drawing an image in 2D. You are creating a subsurface framework that influences the shape of the underlying surface but is NOT part of the surface except at its edges and at "creases". Read Section 3.1 for a (very) brief overview of this modeling method. If you have used Blender or other subsurface modeling programs, then this should be old hat. To create a surface, you need to first have at a minimum of 3 control points in different locations (see below).Then you have to select all the points that will be used to shape that surface. This is done by holding the Ctrl key down and selecting all the points one at a time (more control) or by band-boxing (less control). Then press the Add Face button (the manual's button doesn't agree with the program's here because the GUI was updated since the manual was published). Connect the control points with control lines as desired. This is done by selecting two or more points as above, then clicking on the Insert Line button. For more control, I usually do this with pairs of points, though you can generally do a string of them as long as they don't form an obvious polygon. Otherwise, you may have lines connecting all the points to each other. When you use the Add Point button on the Ribbon, it places the new point at the 0, 0, 0 location and displays the Point editor. To obtain a precise location, as with offset table coordinates, fill in the x, y, and z values in the point editor box. Note that x is positive forward of the longitudinal reference (a good reason to make it the AP), y is positive from centerline outboard, and z is positive from the baseline up. All coordinates are negative on the opposite sides of their respective reference lines. One last thing about selections. In the newest version of the program, clicking on control points with just the mouse deselects the previous point selected (selected points are highlighted yellow). Not so control lines and surface patches. Sequentially selecting lines and patches keeps all selected until you press Escape. I think there is a Deselect All button in the ribbon with the newest version, but I haven't checked that out. This bug can get you if you are trying to select edges to make them creases, such as along the edges of the keel or stern post. You end up toggling one edge to uncrease as you try to crease another if you don't unselect it first. Very annoying. I just noticed that the DELFTShip Free webpage doesn't have their latest manual available for download. You will need to send an email to Maarten Visser (maarten@delftship.net) at their site and request the latest (it should be "manual_714_282.pdf" or later and it's nearly 10 MB). If it's a later version, please let me know.
 
Got to get back to work, but if you desire, I can elaborate on some of the other basic processes and features sometime later.
 
Terry

Larry,
 
I stand corrected on the 'Bama. That would make a more interesting (and challenging) model to work on.
 
If you are going to model directly on a drawing, you still need a spreadsheet or table with offset-like (x, y, z) intersections to enter into the control net point editor. Otherwise, you will end up with a 2D model.
 
My suggested sequence to start this project DELFTShip would be the following, though this isn't the only way to proceed.
Create separate profile, plan, and body view JPG files, all at the same scale. You will need a photo editor to do this. Make them as high resolution as you can (300+ dpi). Create a new project in DELFTShip. I don't have the program in front of me right now, but I think you just click on the white blank page icon in the upper left corner. Follow the instructions and save it. The 7.X version of the program has a Windows-like ribbon. Under the Home tab, click on the Project Settings button. Fill in the General stuff as desired. The really important thing to get right at the beginning is the type of units used. Select either metric or imperial (English), according to your plans. If you forget to do this and leave it in metric (default), when you go back and try to switch to English, it does a dimensional conversion, not numerical. In other words, if you create a model 150 feet long in the meters setting, and then realize you want it to be in feet, and switch the units here in the Settings dialog, the model is now 3.281 ft/m X 150 m, or 492 feet long! All is not lost though. Just use the Scaling feature on the Tools tab and scale length, width, and height by 1/3.281, or 0.3047. Still in the Settings dialog, click on the Main Particulars tab and fill in the Length or LBP (distance between aft face of stern post at LWL to intersection of stem rabbet at LWL), Beam (maximum moulded width), and LWL Draft to baseline. Galilee's baseline was the keel rabbet line. You will need to determine your plan's waterline baseline for this data. The Mid-ship location is set by default at 50% of Length, but if you have a station at that point, I would select a position between stations. This item determines at what point the program splits the stations between the front and stern halves of the body plan view. It should correspond to your body plan image you will be using. You also need to select the Longitudinal reference point. It defaults to the midpoint, but many plans use either the AP or the FP for reference. Galilee's plan used its vertical stern post for the reference. (I recommend the AP because all x values will be positive forward of this point.) The rest of the settings are of little interest to the modeler (IMHO). I can't recall exactly, but I think there is a default model in the new project window. Just select all and delete the model. The next step would be to add the three images in their appropriate views. This is done under the Tools tab. The process is addressed under Section 3.4 of the manual, but it's pretty vague as to the order of operations to make the process reliable and straightforward. I need to be looking at the program to explain this, so it will have to wait. For Bruce, I think it was more the fact that I held an eagle feather in my left hand, and shook the rattles twice before clicking Accept that made the images go where they were supposed to.  Some general hints on hull modeling from scratch: Building a model using a Control Net is not the same thing as drawing an image in 2D. You are creating a subsurface framework that influences the shape of the underlying surface but is NOT part of the surface except at its edges and at "creases". Read Section 3.1 for a (very) brief overview of this modeling method. If you have used Blender or other subsurface modeling programs, then this should be old hat. To create a surface, you need to first have at a minimum of 3 control points in different locations (see below).Then you have to select all the points that will be used to shape that surface. This is done by holding the Ctrl key down and selecting all the points one at a time (more control) or by band-boxing (less control). Then press the Add Face button (the manual's button doesn't agree with the program's here because the GUI was updated since the manual was published). Connect the control points with control lines as desired. This is done by selecting two or more points as above, then clicking on the Insert Line button. For more control, I usually do this with pairs of points, though you can generally do a string of them as long as they don't form an obvious polygon. Otherwise, you may have lines connecting all the points to each other. When you use the Add Point button on the Ribbon, it places the new point at the 0, 0, 0 location and displays the Point editor. To obtain a precise location, as with offset table coordinates, fill in the x, y, and z values in the point editor box. Note that x is positive forward of the longitudinal reference (a good reason to make it the AP), y is positive from centerline outboard, and z is positive from the baseline up. All coordinates are negative on the opposite sides of their respective reference lines. One last thing about selections. In the newest version of the program, clicking on control points with just the mouse deselects the previous point selected (selected points are highlighted yellow). Not so control lines and surface patches. Sequentially selecting lines and patches keeps all selected until you press Escape. I think there is a Deselect All button in the ribbon with the newest version, but I haven't checked that out. This bug can get you if you are trying to select edges to make them creases, such as along the edges of the keel or stern post. You end up toggling one edge to uncrease as you try to crease another if you don't unselect it first. Very annoying. I just noticed that the DELFTShip Free webpage doesn't have their latest manual available for download. You will need to send an email to Maarten Visser (maarten@delftship.net) at their site and request the latest (it should be "manual_714_282.pdf" or later and it's nearly 10 MB). If it's a later version, please let me know.
 
Got to get back to work, but if you desire, I can elaborate on some of the other basic processes and features sometime later.
 
Terry

Larry,
 
I can help get you started. I'm still tweaking the final hull form of Galilee, but it's the getting started that is tough with this program. I would recommend downloading the free version of the DELFTShip program and manual from here. Be sure your system meets the OpenGL requirements. Read through the interface and hull modeling sections, and then I can walk you through setting up a file, inserting the plan images, and then building up the hull. It's not intuitive by any means, but once everything is in place, the actually modeling is pretty straight forward, and produces a cool result.
 
PM me if you want to do this via email.
 
Terry

Chris, yes, the program is actually quite useful in that respect. You just set up the station spacing on the baseline to match the room and space (14 inches and 14 inches) of the original hull, and the forward and after moulded frame edges appear on the plans. The program projects the stations onto the modeled hull surface. They aren't fixed reference points that determine the hull shape or anything like that. I have a fairly accurate idea of the framing from direct measurements on the bow at the Benicia museum and the stern at Fort Mason in SF. Interestingly, Matt Turner didn't use cant frames, so the spacing problem is even easier to deal with.
 
Druxey, by "fidelity" I meant "true to form", not necessarily structural accuracy. I'm not sure how many bulkheads you would need to avoid the inevitable flat spots between them if they are too far apart. I've carved a half-hull of Herreshoff's Gloriana using the lift method from WoodenBoat plans, so I'm comfortable with that. I could carve the moulded shape of the hull then plank on top of that. The result would be a pretty heavy model, though.
 
Terry
Greenville, South Carolina, USA

Chris, yes, the program is actually quite useful in that respect. You just set up the station spacing on the baseline to match the room and space (14 inches and 14 inches) of the original hull, and the forward and after moulded frame edges appear on the plans. The program projects the stations onto the modeled hull surface. They aren't fixed reference points that determine the hull shape or anything like that. I have a fairly accurate idea of the framing from direct measurements on the bow at the Benicia museum and the stern at Fort Mason in SF. Interestingly, Matt Turner didn't use cant frames, so the spacing problem is even easier to deal with.
 
Druxey, by "fidelity" I meant "true to form", not necessarily structural accuracy. I'm not sure how many bulkheads you would need to avoid the inevitable flat spots between them if they are too far apart. I've carved a half-hull of Herreshoff's Gloriana using the lift method from WoodenBoat plans, so I'm comfortable with that. I could carve the moulded shape of the hull then plank on top of that. The result would be a pretty heavy model, though.
 
Terry
Greenville, South Carolina, USA

I think by 'straightforward' Terry means that his subject (Galilee) has a typical hull form and construction for the period.  POF would certainly be the most labor-intensive method and would require either an extant framing plan or a knowledge of general framing practices used by that particular builder (Matthew Turner).  Terry, can the Delftship program create bulkhead or lift templates for you?

Ah: thanks for the clarification, Terry. One composite method of forming the hull would be bulkheads with filler pieces between to form a solid landing for the planks. This would avoid flat spots. (see the Hohenzollern 1660 model thread by Mr. Hollum).

Chris, yes, the program is actually quite useful in that respect. You just set up the station spacing on the baseline to match the room and space (14 inches and 14 inches) of the original hull, and the forward and after moulded frame edges appear on the plans. The program projects the stations onto the modeled hull surface. They aren't fixed reference points that determine the hull shape or anything like that. I have a fairly accurate idea of the framing from direct measurements on the bow at the Benicia museum and the stern at Fort Mason in SF. Interestingly, Matt Turner didn't use cant frames, so the spacing problem is even easier to deal with.
 
Druxey, by "fidelity" I meant "true to form", not necessarily structural accuracy. I'm not sure how many bulkheads you would need to avoid the inevitable flat spots between them if they are too far apart. I've carved a half-hull of Herreshoff's Gloriana using the lift method from WoodenBoat plans, so I'm comfortable with that. I could carve the moulded shape of the hull then plank on top of that. The result would be a pretty heavy model, though.
 
Terry
Greenville, South Carolina, USA

thank you Nils.........now I'll give something to really laugh about {go ahead.......I did }
 
 
another sub assembly I decided to play with,  are the ladders  {we all know how much I love to play with ladders}.   first off though........it's not in it's proper place,  but I though I show you this photo of the assembly I just made.........I just like how it looks 
 

 
with some 1/16 square stock,  I made the ladder that will go up the side to this part.......it leads to an upper platform.  I sanded it and took the squareness away,  but I'm not really happy with the rungs.   their not as clean as I would like them to be.
 

 

 

 
I then thought to make one like I did on the Nordkap,  using staples.   first starting with two equal length pieces of 1/16 square stock.......marking them in 5 mm segments.
 

 
then drilling the holes and cementing in the staples
 

 
when all was said and done.......it looked like this
 

 
I like it.........but wasn't happy with the fact that some of the staples weren't all the same height.......as if the holes in the Formica {all around there} wasn't a dead give - a - way to what was to happen next.
 

 
I had to keep in mind that I was using CA...........usually when I do some bone headed move like this,  I use white glue.......much easier to pry off the table.  the admiral saw me doing this earlier.......thought it was the coolest thing in the world.........she doesn't know about the outcome yet.  she liked the wooden ladder and thought I was nutz for thinking it wasn't good enough.  I think with a little tweaking on my method   I think it would work .  these are staples that fit in the mini staplers.   of all the best laid plans..........this one was too good....NOT....to show you :D

Hi Betty, and welcome to MSW. My condolences on your loss as well.
 
You've taken on a bit of a monster, but nothing that can't be finished with time, patience and help .
 
It will help a lot if we can get this model identified.  Do you have the plans for it or any other information ?
 
  Danny