trippwj

Every best wish for a successful March 4 rally! Unfortunately many of us do not live in the U.K. and won't be able to attend.

Hello London enthusiasts. I reckon we can pursue our enquiries and come to a good conclusion Most importantly, we should always go back to original source material when pursuing a theory, not use what I or Brian may have dreamt up. Firstly to answer a question about Riff's dimensions, The keel length is given in Pepys Register of ships in Magdalen College, Cambridge as 123' 6" Breadth 41' 0" and Depth in hold 16' 6" while another list NMM CLU/9 gives the keel as 123' 0" and the same dimensions for the rest. As for the radii of the floor sweep, take a look at Brian Lavery's Ship of the Line II page 19 where he says in the caption for image 2 Body Plan that the floor sweeps are reduced in diameter(sic). Then take a ruler and measure the clearly marked floor sweeps of said illustration and I make them all to be the same at 13mm. Please check for yourselves as we need to agree our understanding of a floor sweep is the same. Be careful not to measure to a diagonal line on the aft side. Check all the other contemporary plans you can find. Then consider the way moulds were made in the method describes in Shipwright's Repository. Remember Brian wrote his book in the late 1970's when the understanding of such matters was largely forgotten and he blazed the trail for us. Seventeenth century plans do have what look like diagonals but they are in fact the heads and heels of futtocks and toptimbers. The first known evidence of checking lines with water lines appears about 1680 but the method of plotting them must have been well know way before that in order to plot the contours of the transoms. Waldemar may well be right in finding the floor sweep varies, in which case Frank Fox was correct in believing the plan is not authentic. Alternatively perhaps Waldemar could use the best fit floor sweep. I suggest the plan has so many anonmoles that to create the rising and narrowing lines is almost impossible. And why would you? the rising and narrowing lines were drawn first to create the sweeps and the sweeps are there already.

Oh yes, a bit got cut off. I tried to say that there is a London day at Southend on 4 March organised by Save the London. There will be a day of talks by archaeologists and historians and many of the recovered artefacts will be on display. The event is easily found on the net and I think it only costs £3.50 entry. I have given talks there in the past and will do so again next year, if anyone from this forum attends it will be a pleasure to meet you there.

THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO REPLIED. I WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW THAT THE WORKSHOP HAS BEEN SOLD AND IS GOING TO A VERY GOOD HOME!  BEST OF LUCK TO YOU ALL. 

I know clue and clew have been used interchangeably but from what I can find clew came first.   
When did clew become clue?
The spelling clue is first attested mid-15c. The sense shift is originally in reference to the clew of thread given by Ariadne to Theseus to use as a guide out of the Labyrinth in Greek mythology. 
What this has to do with the corner of a sail, I have no idea.
 
Allan

Like Baker, I too have an extensive library of maritime history books.  I began buying books by Howard Chapelle in my 20’s and have continued ever since.  In 2018, I joined the ranks of authors the first (and last)book that I wrote was published by an academic press.  In several ways, books are like ship model kits.  Many model builders never have enough of them and their value is not in paper and cardboard (or plywood and sticks) but in the work that the author spent  accumulating and sharing the knowledge that they contain.  These books are specialized and in most cases neither the authors or publishers are getting rich from them.  In my case I enjoyed my 15 minutes of fame twice when my book was selected for two awards.  Financially 4-1/2 years after publication the payment to the person hired to index the book has exceeded the royalties paid or owed to me.  This is not a complaint,  I don’t need the money and take great pleasure knowing that my research on a unique Great Lakes ship type will be available to scholars, model builders, etc long after I am gone.
 
Over the years, I have bought my share of “how to” ship modeling books but have disposed of most of them as I find their lasting value and to be limited.  I did buy the recent book by Rob Napier published by Seawatch and am eagerly looking forward to reading it.  At the other end of the book spectrum I really like published reports of maritime Archeology research of which the Mary Rose Book reviewed by Baker and included in my library, is an outstanding example.  As these are even more specialized than run of the mill maritime history books, by necessity, they are more expensive.
 
if Ferrus Marcus is interested in building a model of a Spanish Galleon I would recommend the “Underwater Archeology of Red Bay” published by Parks Canada and distributed in the USA by Casemate Books.  This book describes excavation of an actual Spanish vessel of the mid-late 1500’s.  There is enough information within, including separate drawings to build a model incorporating all known historically accurate information.
 
Roger
 
 
 

According to the Byrnes website:
The Byrnes Disc Sander has an integrated 1.5" dust port, and is powered by a 90V DC motor. All our machines are backed by our 1-year warranty.

This is truly spectacular!  Thanks for posting it here - there are some amazing things to learn from this one!

According to the Byrnes website:
The Byrnes Disc Sander has an integrated 1.5" dust port, and is powered by a 90V DC motor. All our machines are backed by our 1-year warranty.

According to the Byrnes website:
The Byrnes Disc Sander has an integrated 1.5" dust port, and is powered by a 90V DC motor. All our machines are backed by our 1-year warranty.

If we did books that include plans, we'd make the plans available as physical components. Any content on CDs would actually be included with the book - one of the advantages of the digital reader is that it can include videos, PDF files, and other media.

I'm excited to announce that SeaWatch is dipping our toe into e-books! While we pride ourselves on beautiful, high quality, printed books, we must acknowledge that the digital format for books is here to stay. There are several benefits to e-books:
 
You can zoom into pictures to get more detail You can easily travel with them There is no shipping costs to receive them (this should be of particular interest to our international readers!) They don't go out of print  
Our first e-book is Rob Napier's new book Caring for Ship Models: A Narrative of Thought and Application. (Thank you Rob for being open to this!) It is our intent to expand this based on author interest and I hope to next add some of our currently out-of-print books until we can get those reprinted.
One thing I'm considering is that if you order an out-of-print book as an e-book, when the book is printed we can ship that to you and turn off the digital version (feel free to let us know what you think of this).
 
A word on pricing: we do not plan on discounting e-books relative to their physical counterparts. The reason is that we believe the books - regardless of their media - have inherent value. It's their content not their physical properties. And, while there are no printing costs with digital books, there are costs in creating them, hosting them, and updating them. That said, for those that want to own both, we plan to offer a bundle at a 10% discount.
 
Note that since our books are very visual, we are not making them available for Kindles or similar e-readers. We have have partnered with a firm called Kotobee to create our own online library and digital e-readers (currently available for Windows and Mac with iOS to follow soon). When you order an e-book, you will be sent a link to register for the reading platform. On subsequent purchases, you will see the book appear in your library automatically.
 
As we go down this road, we are of course open to any feedback so please let us know your thoughts. Are you interested in e-books? Are there any titles you'd like to see first? 

While this specific set of questions is worthy of discussion, your diatribe attacking Ab Hoving is lacking substance. His credentials are strong, with many published academic works in addition to his books. 29 years restoring museum models would involve broad familiarity with archival material. While you may disagree with his conclusions, that does not make them wrong.
 
Could you build a boat based on Witsen? Yes, with some assumptions regarding missing or strange information.  Does his treatise meet modern standards? Heck no - he could use a good editor!

One must understand the era during which these treatises were prepared before passing judgement on the source. Witsen was documenting in a written form what was primarily institutional knowledge among the shipwrights of the time. Not so different from the Newton manuscript or, for that matter, the many 18th century works such as Steel or the various encyclopedia entries. Citing of references is a much more modern concept. Is Michael of Rhodes any less credible for not citing the more ancient sources?
 
 

Thank you for the update. I fully understand the value of the drawings, however my curiosity concerns how well the radii you calculated correlate to any of the existing treatises from the period. Would be beneficial in determining whether the treatises actually represented common practice or were more specific to the author.
 
Hopefully at some point in time the full wreck site will be excavated and documented. Currently only a few floors seem to be exposed.
 
Many thanks.

Your approach would be what I called trual & error (Adams refered to it as "by construction").
 
I doubt the shipbuilder of the 17th C chose the radii "arbitrarily". Yes, it was based on the institutional knowledge of the builder (this era was the beginning of the split between design and construction) - the conceptualization of form was seperately applied to the construction via preplanned hull shapes rather than application of a master frame.
 
For our subject, the test of methodology is how well the master mould fits frames fore & aft. This specific set of drawings is awkward as they are not plans but, rather, appear to be generated from off sets at less than standard intervals. If geometric radii were used they should fit over other stations accomodating narrowing (can be found from these drawings by measurement) and rising (not quite so easily found but diable). To draw those on a profile equal intervals longitudinally are nice to have but not essential - use of a spline or similar flexible batten would allow fitting a smoothed line to the points available.
 

Are those radii set by trial & error or based on one of the extant sources?

Good Evening Martes;
 
You are quite correct in your recall; the wreck is located close to a busy shipping lane, and the prop-wash from passing ships, and tidal scour of the exposed remains, are causing rapid deterioration. A further unhelpful factor is the refusal of Historic England to allow any items to be removed from the wreck site. This means that artefacts and ship's timbers can be observed when they are exposed, but cannot be removed to preserve them. Important pieces of the ship's structure and artefacts have been noted, which have now disappeared without any chance to make an official record or attempt to preserve them. Which is very frustrating for all those who want to know more about this time capsule's contents. 
 
It is possible that the circumstances have now changed, and recovery of at-risk artefacts etc is now allowed; my information is not up-to-date; but I am not overly hopeful of anything involving a complicated bureaucracy's minions. Especially as many of them are now, post Covid, probably 'working' from home. 
 
There is a charity devoted to preserving/raising the remains, 'Save the London', managed by the Nautical Archaeology Society. 
 
All the best,
 
Mark P

The Livro Primeiro de Arquitectura Naval (First Book of Naval Architecture) has been dated between 1608 and 1615, and is generally considered to have been written around 1600 by João Baptista Lavanha, the Chief Engineer and Chief Cosmographer of the kingdom of Portugal at that time. It is the theoretical work of a scholar, and not a practical text of a shipwright. It deals only with one type of vessel: the four decked nau for the India Route. It is clearly more modern than Oliveira’s Liuro da Fabrica das Naus, basing the construction of hulls on paper drawings. Nevertheless, Lavanha calls for the need to pre-design a central portion of the hull, although only for five frames forward and abaft the midship section. The importance of this treatise lies in its accurate description of construction techniques, and in its detailed illustrations. It is incomplete, ending abruptly in the beginning of a description of the drawing of plans.
 
Both Lavanha's and Oliveira's works are availble from the Academia de Marinha, the cultural agency of the Portuguese Navy under the Chief of Naval Staff. Its purpose is to promote and to publish artistic, literary, historical, and scientific studies relating to the sea and maritime activities. For those that are able to read Portuguese, there are a number of other items also posted. I thought these two early manuscripts may be of interest. While Lavanha has been translated, Oliveira has not. Some sections of Oliveira have been transcribed while others are facsimile of the original handwritten treatise.
 
Lavanha, J.B. (1610) ‘Livro Primeiro da Architectura Naval (First Book of Naval Architecture)’. Translated by R. A. Barker. Available at: https://academia.marinha.pt/pt/edicoes/Paginas/Reedições.aspx (Published by the Academia de Marinha, Lisbon, 1996, as a facsimile, transcript and translation; and including the 1965 commentary by Dr João da Gama Pimentel Barata, revised and updated from his notes on a draft translation in 1986; together with further annotation by the translator). (Accessed: 2 November 2022).  
Oliveira, F. (1580) ‘Livro da Fabrica das Naus’. Available at: https://academia.marinha.pt/pt/edicoes/Paginas/Reedições.aspx  (Published by the Academia de Marinha, Lisbon, 1991, as a facsimile, partial transcript). (Accessed: 2 November 2022). Original images available at https://purl.pt/6744  where a 719MB PDF may also be downloaded.
 
Barkers on-line translation of Lavanha (same as in the book) can be found on his website here (he has several very nice items there, including what appears to be a partial translation of Oliveira here....)
 
   
 
 

So the big questions - will you will you build it bottom first with sewn planks (as built approach)?

Just to close out this discussion, I've agreed (and sent the check) to acquire this set. After a little searching, I'm donating them to the library at the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy in New York. Now the logistics are such that I'll wait out winter before going to pick them up.
Tom

Ha ha ha ... well, this is actual Naval History ... and nicely done too.
 
"Alarm!"
 
 

https://www.wessexarch.co.uk/news/rare-elizabethan-ship-discovered-quarry-300-metres-coast
 
Sorry about the late notice - looks like the TV programme has already been shown.
 
Steven

There are more than 20 low resolution contemporary plans of Diana 1794 at RMG Collections as well as a contemporary model.  You may want to download these and compare to the AOTS book to look for any differences that might be there.
 
https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/search/Diana plans 1794
 
Seven of these plans can be found in high resolution on the Wiki Commons site and are downloadable for free.  I think they are on pages 4 and 5 and labeled as Artois.  These are more than likely applicable to any of the  Artois class 38 gun ship, including Diana 1794 as pointed out on the RMG site which lists eight of the nine the ships of the class on each plan description.    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ship_plans_of_the_Royal_Museums_Greenwich
 
You might also find it a good idea to use these contemporary plans as you can have them printed at any scale you want on single large sheets.
 
Allan