MESSIS
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@mtaylor thank you. It was the only way to present an archetype of all seafarers that before him explored and discovered new places and new sea routes. -
Thank you Steven. Great pictures thanks... I might use in my book one of those. Can you please tell a little more over the themrtra Tunisia in order to find the sources?
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This is ιστοδόκη (istodoki) the arrangement to store the mast as it was lowered when the ship was parked ashore. Ιστό-ς =mast, δόκη from verb δέχομαι=accept Modern greek = ιστοθήκη, english = mast-holder
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@Louie da fly thank you Steven, it seemsyou are right, the thing is "dont concetrade on those small faults, look the whole". Ofcourse youknow that we, the modellers, is part of our masochism to concentrate exactly on our faults even if they are tinny and of no importance.
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@Danstream Dan, believe it or not, you just made my day! I was dissapointed with my oar's work. I though they were not good enough reproduced... I thought that was the black ship of this project. But you just made me think better. Thank you for your nice words, I did looked the model again and .... at least you are most persuasive! Vielen dank Christos Ps. For the arrangement of the oars though I had found evidence on vessels showing this , I mostly did so, because as an engineer this is the correct thinking (as you just mentioned above)
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Thank you Steven. It seems am at the end, the mast its on its way... And I have pictures which I took myself of the rigging of the Kyrenia replica, so it would not be very hard.
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Oars and oars, oars and oars nightmares... oars. 50 of those! Argo was a pentconter as well, thats the re[lica of Argo. Oars called Ερετμά (eretma) in homeric world, κουπιά in greek today.
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@Danstream what you just posted sounds very rellistic and I believe that could also be a translation very possibly correct. Actualy the object on the pic you posted is called δικρανο in greek and this is how Kazantzakis has also translated. And the same surely was done by@Louie da flywho is very familiar with the ancient naval history and has very good knowledge of the corresponding greek language. Sorry about saying it was your traslation, I meant the translation you posted. The issue is that any translation has a risk because its not known what exactly is the translation of the homeric word αθηρολοιγόν. This is what is oft happenning with the homeric texts. Thats why I mentioned previously the "homeric fog" and the linguistic codes of Homer.... unlocking them isnt easy. You are right the discuttion is very interesting.Thank you for contributting to that. I really enjoy it.
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Λίκνον is ancient greek but strictly speaking not a homeric word. It is not contained either in Iliad nor Odyssey. It is mentioned though in the Homeric hymns* (I am sure its mentioned in the hymn to Hermes). It means the "baby cot" and wider means there where something was created. Is very oft used in the phrase "Ελλάδα το λίκνον του πολιτισμού"... *the Homeric hymns are anonymus. They are called homeric because the same epic meter is used as Iliad and Odyssey. They also use the same dialect. Translation of Homer can be very tricky as @Danstream above translates "winnowing fan", it can not be certain if that is a correct translation. Some translations even use the sound similar word to liknon, the word liknistiri. It means pitchfork... which again makes sense, but can not taken as certain. The word used actualy by Homer is αθηρολοιγόν! Atheroma is or can be a plate or a slab. Why can not an oar blade be that? I dont know. Kazantzakis (I believe the authority in Homeric translation) translates to greek using the word δίκρανο. Meaning again something like pitchfork or rake (I dont know if my weak knowledge in english translates ok).
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So here we go again. New oars... thinner blade. And the weigh is about 18-22 kg. The wood is fir and the length 3.9 meters.... 😅
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@Danstream Great! Thats the way it goes actually, the linguistic code of Homer some timew its easy some times its complicated. But thats the only way to see through the Homeric fog. Thank you sir for your astonishing intervention.
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@Louie da fly Yes I agree Steven, you are right with all your arguments. The only thing I would add is the manufacturing problems and am talking about the blades. They couldnt be an added part if the oar. Oars most propably were made out a single piece of wood, so the ratio of the handle to the blade was hard to go beyond a limit. Actualy this is the rule you followed in your ship's case although the above considarations were of less importance at the time of Dromon, that is almost 1000 years after the time that penteconter appeared. Olympias looks like the blades are added and made out of some kind of a non wood material. So I prefer your blades I believe they look and are authentic.
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Thank you Steven. Still allow me to have my considarations over the pictorial information of the vases. As Samuel Mark in his book Homeric Seafaring argues, actually the painters were just decorating vases, they were not drawing ship building drawings. Also more often they lacked of skills in order to represent correct what they have seen and even more some times they were painting ships without having ever seen them. The following potter picture is an example of the case referring to the skills of the painter: Is it a bireme, with two rows of oars on each side, or is it just the artist (who lacks of skills) aiming to picture together both sides of a ship with a single oar row on each side? And ofcourse the question of the length remains. The second picture after Casson (taken from a geometric era vase again) shows oars of a size similar to the oarers height (Penteconter were shallow). Even if we consider the parameter of the prespective of the picture a 3 meters length could have been possible. Still I believe they were longer thats why I went on a 4 meters length. Τhis is what Lionel Casson says in his bookShips and Seamanship. The athenian naval records (4th cent.bc) indicate the oar length at 9 cubit (thats 4.18 meters) or maybe half a cubit longer for the oars amid-ships. Still I have a feeling that am wrong with the length of the blade. Although the length I choosed seems proper I think it had to be shorter... (and thinner) because as short as it gets the easier is to row it... and when you have 50 oars you dont need verylong oar blades.... still the issue how long were the blades... remains ananswerd. Anyway oars have to be redone... thinner and a slightly narrower blade.
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Dear Steven, yes you are right there. The marble eyes were found at Zea in Pireus and is after that when Lolling published his work (14] E. Lolling, “Schiffsaugen”, AM 5,). But still after him a few schollars came with objections saying they were heavy, breakable and the hole of the pin too small. Emily Ioannidou of the GN Institute argues that propably they were used as votives to the gods.... About the oars Steven feel free to elaborate your thoughts. Its still not too late for changes. The length is 4 meters and the thickness 14 cm. I have brighten the blade and is 36 cm.... I have modified the kit's original drawing according to the ideas exposed by K.Antipas in its book about the homeric oars, of which (I believe) nobody knows anything. After my calculations with the pine wood density 400-500kg/m3 makes my oars about 20 to 25 kgs heavy. I know its may be a little to heavy but still they could be carried by one man. Always.... If my calculations are correct
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Oars and the klides on which the oars were binded (Ion. κληΐς [ῑ], κληῗδος, κληῗδα, etc. (Hom. uses only the Ion. form):—Dor. κλᾱΐς, κλαΐδος [ῐ] Simon.23)
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Thank you Steven for the nice words and the link. There was/is a discussion still over the materials of the eyes. The eyes found made from marble is believed that they were not used on the ships because they were heavy. Most scholars believe that the eyes were made by applying hot coloured wax, some believe that eye inlays were used such as some kind of colloured metal, as copper or bronze and some even believed that glass was used or even Lapis lazuli which maybe also explains why Homer refers to blue (κυανοπρωος). My build represents inlay eyes... I think it is made out of blue glass.😁
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Red chicks and black hull. Αφλαστο at the stern and ακροστόλιο and oφθαλμοί at the stem. Οφθαλμοί oculis, so that the ship can look up the safest way and aflasto and akrostolio were symbols, mainly of religious meaning. Mike - Michael Shanks , has fabricate by Cnc the two oculis of the ship... I did just the painting. Shipbuilding is approaching its end. Next are the oars and the rigging. Many thanks for such a precious present that added a lot to the model.
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Question to Steven. Your dromon has two rows of oars on each side. Is actualy the corresponding ship to the older athenian bireme. Do you know how these ships were exactly named in order to distinguish the number of rows and oars?
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