Hubac's Historian

Hello Richard! Thank you for the reference. Until your post, I knew nothing about who made this model, but I am familiar with it and find it to be one of the more complete models of SR. I particularly like the head rails on this model. Thank you for your encouragement. I expect this to be a long journey, but I am enjoying myself, immensely, so far.

Okay, Ofencer. I'm going to give the Musee a few weeks to respond. They'd be doing me a huge solid if they were able to give insight into any of my questions. My hope was that Mr. Saunier would be able to help fill in the blanks, or refute/confirm whatever it is that I might learn from the museum. Earlier tonight, I was Google Translating Michel's back and forth on another modeling site, Forumpro.FR. There are five pages of the log, in which he discusses a bit of what is known about SR's early history and the refit, and the relative tangle of information that surrounds her, which is certainly daunting to anyone who attempts a serious effort at modeling her. I haven't finished reading it yet, and of course, the translation is not nearly perfect, but good enough to get a strong sense of his thinking. To be quite honest with you, I would like to address Mr. Saunier in French, but I know that my skills in your native tongue are too rudimentary to sound like anything more than "where is the bathroom?" Do you think he will be open to speaking with me in English?

These are the pictures of the Tusset model I was referring to earlier: The reduced sheer, the relatively broad beam, the placement of the channels, the vertical timbers in the waist, and the arrangement of the quarter galleries are all things that I envision for my build. This is what I was referring to, in an earlier post, when I was describing an open walkable tier in the middle quarter galleries. Although, as I mentioned in that post, I do not believe that the open gallery, on this middle tier, wraps to the stern on SR, as it does for Mr. Tusset's model. I would love to know what is happening with this model and whether Mr. Tusset and Mr. Lemineur are indeed in the process of producing a monograph of it's construction. Has anyone else out there seen this model before? If you drag your cursor, so that Mr. Tusset's waterline sits on the horizon of your monitor, so to speak, this is very nearly the impression that my modified SR waterline model with make. This is the presence I am after.

I would very much like to speak with Mr. Saunier. Before I contact him, though, I would like to hear what the Musee in Paris has to say in response to my inquiry. I'm sure their response will generate additional questions that I could then ask Mr. Saunier about. If I reference you as the link between us, shall I say that "Ofencer" suggested I contact him, or do you have a different screen name on the Modelisme site?

So far, my attempts to inquire through Ancre's website, as to whether this proposed monographie might soon be available for purchase, have gone un-answered. I will try to post these pictures here: At the moment, I am unable to do that. I will see, later, if I can upload them from my Pinterest page, where I have copies of them. The model really is fascinating and confirms a number of things that I am trying to do with this build. It would be incredible to have legitimate scholarship backing a monographie, complete with a sound hull form for this early time in French naval architecture. More later. Thank you, again, for your interest, your likes and thoughts.

Hi Ofencer! Yes, you are absolutely right that there are no absolutes when it comes to modeling the first SR. All we can do is build upon the work that is out there and draw upon the existing 17th C. ship portraits of SR's contemporaries that we know to be reliable. Only then, can we hope to arrive at some semblance of truth, but we'll never know her true appearance completely. That is, not until the Van de Velde grissaille of her emerges from behind someone's aweful paint-by-the numbers picture of whatever - where it has been hiding and long forgotten since the days of Hitler's art pillaging of Europe. I like to imagine that if that drawing exists, it is in a scenario like this where, one day, someone's wife asks their husband "can we please throw away that terrible picture!?" And only then, when the poor belleagured husband takes it from the wall where it has sat, undisturbed for the past 80 some years does he realise that there is something far more interesting on the other side. It's a nice fantasy. I will say, however that I got really excited, earlier this year when I stumbled upon an inage search that included pictures from NAVEXPO 2012. I will try to post these pictures from my phone, but I probably won't succeed. What I found was a large model of a 90-gun ship from the second marine of Louis XIV. The model was complete to the upper bulwarks, with the lower masts stepped. It is the work of a man named Jose Tusset, who it appears, is making this model in collaboration with Mr. Lemineur, who is assembling a monographie of the vessel. Let me post this much.

I did a little bit of drawing for my "frieze legend" tonight, but I spent most of the evening cozying up with a tumbler(s) of Powers and reading through Druxey's build log for his Greenwich Hospital Barge. I was relatively sober, at the start, but thoroughly intoxicated with the achievement of his build, by the end. Also, Powers is named that for a reason! What struck me so much, aside from Druxey's master skill and intuitive feel for the correctness of these boat shaped things, was his graciousness towards all who come to visit his build log. I understand that, at first glance, anything with "Heller's SR" in the title might provoke eye-rolls among some modelers, and I can appreciate why. That is why I really appreciate all of you who have come to visit my log, and who are taking an interest in what I am doing. It is often said that no one attains a level of achievement without the help and guidance of others. Thank you all, for your advice and encouragement! Your collective talent and achievement are providing me with ideas and inspiration every day. All the best, Marc

Druxey, I am just so awed by what you have accomplished with this build. There really isn't anything I can say that hasn't already been said more succinctly. But, I'ma go ahead and try... First of all, your presentation of a build-log was really so informative to me, who is new to the site. You are un-failingly gracious and your log structure, for any given entry, is so perfectly focused on illustrating the particular challenges, solutions, mis-steps, and course-corrections that such a challenging build necessitates. Your writing, also, is excellent! The choice of subject was such a pure distillation of what attracts most people to wooden boats, in the first place. Absolutely engrossing. Your execution is really remarkable - even, I'm sure, under the closest scrutiny and the highest resolutions. Thank you for teaching me so much!

I hear what you're saying about the full scratch-build Druxey. I do. From my perspective, though, that seems like infinitely more work just to produce a hull form. Let's assume, for a moment, that it's still a waterline build, but that I'm going to do the least involved hull construction: bread and butter lifts. I first have to come up with a suitable lines plan because, currently, nothing verifiable exists for French naval architecture, circa 1669. Let's say I adapt the lines for L'Ambiteaux. I still have to configure the guns, which likely means lengthening the hull in the waist. I would, then, have to draft a full set of plans. Finally, it's a whole lot of wasting, shaping and fairing before I can even think about mortising for the ports and planking and setting the main wale. Lastly, I would have to re-create all of the ornamentation. What I'm proposing involves a certain amount of hull modification, however - even accounting for the fact that I've never attempted anything like what I've laid forth here - it is still a lot less work because I'm starting with 99% of the hull shell, right away. Ports all located. The largest carvings - good, as is; head rails, figurehead - all perfectly useable. Also, this is a sort of mock-up for my concept, so that I can do a fully designed scratch-build in wood. When your framing, in wood, is wrong - backtracking is significantly more laborious. If I don't like what's happening in styrene, i can just cut it out and try something different. The process is literally more malleable. Your sentiment, though, is one that any reasonable person must consider.

My guess is that it should be workable after the lower hull and stem have been cut away, and the 5/16" addition I need in the bow should be obtainable from the first 1/2 of the hull because it is essentially a flat piece there. I may have to do some fairing in around the stem, or possibly some heating of the casting to re-shape it a little. Any which way, it should be easier than building up and bending in these additions out of sheet styrene, which was my original intent.

I've been reading around and watching YouTube videos on how to cast resin parts. Eureka! This morning it dawned on me that I can make perfectly mating bow extension pieces, with perfectly matching plank lines and grain detail by casting the first half inch of the hull, at the bow. Theoretically, that should work perfectly without any problems or difficulties, at all, because that's just how life works. Easy button! I could apply the same technique to the stern for my 1/4" add-on piece, and then i'll have the added benefit of perfectly matching tumblehome. Awesome! I'll have to do two castings for the upper and lower stern. I'll also have to rig up a means of holding the hull half and upper stern plate vertically, so that I can dip their ends - again, about a 1/2" into a mould box. A long cardboard box with one short end cut out, and a dowel through a gunport opening should do the trick. Geez - I wonder what could possibly go wrong. Thoughts?

Tonight, I drew the Antler escutcheon carving that goes between the main deck guns. This is one aspect of the kit that I will not be altering. It was a witch to draw, and it is still only a reasonable facsimile, but I only need it as a spacer for the full rendering. Having it in place will give me a better sense for the entire composition of added details. What I find interesting about this process of first renderings for repeated details is that now, with an example of the Antler carving and the sheer cap carving in position, relative to each other - it seems as though maybe the scale of the sheer cap is too big. Considered on it's own, though, it seems just right. The truth is, I probably won't really know until all of the detail is filled in around it, with Corel Draw. The program will allow me to make minute changes in scale, after first tracing my renderings in a larger, workable scale. Towards that end, I've begun listing a legend of the small carving details that make up the frieze. The first is this leafy scroll that is placed on all of the transitional corners of the frieze. In actuality, it will be quite small. But after fiddling with it for a while, I like this shape: There are a number of other small details that I will add to this legend: a diamond cartouche thing, a shell, and a fleur-de-lis that can be re-sized for the three different applications where it is needed. The real value of Corel will be in layout out the arc-ed grid of the frieze because the sections of the grid will vary, in length, according to whatever is going on around them, in the way of fixed detail. By hand, this would be a nightmare of messy erasures.

Hey Dan, I will definitely look into Alumilite - thanks for the tip. As for stamping into clay moulds, my thought was to use regular earthenware clay - and not the polymerized stuff - and maybe some kind of light release agent that wouldn't interfere with the curing and detail of a product like Alumilite. I figure that, in the worst case scenario, if the castings don't come cleanly from the clay, you could just scrub them clean and stamp a new mould. Worth an experiment, anyway. Where the Fimo/Sculpy will come in really handy is for the large, one-off carvings like Apollo and his horse-drawn charriot. Failing that, I know the RTV will work, just a little more slowly.

Hi Matt! I'm new to the site, but I've been perusing build logs and your work here on the Latham is truly stunning. The treenailing really came off well without appearing over-wrought. And your deck furniture is wonderfully detailed but just softened enough to look like a real work boat. Very impressed!

A few more renderings, tonight. I was having a hard time getting the scale of the bell flower additions right for the round ports. This revision makes the ports seem a little over-wide, but I can scale this more easily in Corel Draw. I just wanted to get the shape of the thing right. I like the shape of the sheer rail caps, though. Because of the positioning of the Heller kit's round ports, I don't think I will be able to do the small scalloped cutout into the planking, just inside the sheer cap, nonetheless, these pieces will go a long way toward providing a more elegant transition from one sheer step to the next. As it is, on at least one step of the stern sheer, I'll have to inlet this cap, partially, into the rounded framing of one port. If it's done with care, it should still look good and intentional.

So, tonight, I drew in the sheer line and sheer strakes. I also did a simplified embellishment of the square domed ports of the main deck guns. There isn't enough room to do the double scroll acanthus carvings, below the port, and there's barely enough room to do a simplified fleur-de-lis at the center, top of the port. Although it probably won't show that well in this picture, I think it looks nice. Tomorrow, I'll experiment with a bell-flower accent to both sides of the round ports, but the stern drawing is just about ready to digitize. The more I think about it, the full 1/4" extension to the stern will buy me some much needed space for laying out these quarter galleries: Maybe that main deck port right next to the quarters won't look so cramped now. With your cursor, drag the waterline down to the edge of your screen, so that you can get a sense for the reduced sheer. To my eye, this is more ship-like.

Beautiful Caroline, Ofencer. Fimo for the carvings?

Thanks for the tips, Ofencer! I will check out Fimo.

Yes, I am particularly fascinated by Neko's build. His method of using balsa lifts with ply bulkheads was quite ingenious. I also find his skill in layout, planking and carving to be quite exceptional. Is Fimo a brand name, or a type of mould medium? It allows one to make a series of impressions? It dawned on me that I could probably cast into modeling clay; when it's cold, it should be stiff enough to take and hold an impression long enough for resin to set. Has anyone tried this?

One thing that I am puzzling over is the large number of small ornamental details that I plan to add to the model, after first scraping away most of what Heller moulded into the upper bulwarks. I'll need to make resin castings of three different sizes of fleur-de-lis; one for the first gundeck ports, another for the middle gundeck ports, and a third for the ornamental frieze of the upper bulwarks. I'll also need shells and a leafy sort of scroll accent for the frieze, as well as port accents for the domed, main deck guns and the quarter and f'ocsle ports. My plan was to carve really good masters for each element, to whatever scale is needed. I would then affix the master to the end of a "stamp stick". Then I will build a small casting box, into which I would pour in some form of latex mould medium. Now, because these are all shallow castings, I don't see any need to create a two-piece mould. However, what I would like to know about is whether there is a latex mould medium that would allow me to stamp multiple impressions of my accent part, at a point just before the latex cures completely. That way, I would only need to carve one master of each, yet I could cast 15-20 small fleur-de-lis at one time. Any advice anyone can offer about best materials to use for making such a mould, as well as preferred procedures would be greatly appreciated.

Hello! Yes, the last time I checked on Mr. Saunier's build he was not this far along in developing his stern. He and a gentleman who goes by the name "Neko" are both building their own interpretation of SR, based on the Berain drawings. Mr. Saunier has chosen to model his quarter galleries on a more restrained design, which I tried to post an image of, above, but could not owing to permission restrictions. Neko, it seems, is planning to do the earlier design for his quarter galleries. I am in the process of asking the Musee what time period these two different appearances pertain to. I sometimes use Google translate and my own rudimentary understanding of French to follow these gentlemen's build logs. Much, as you may imagine, is lost in translation!

I did a little drawing last night. I copied the stern extension profile and added a hash-mark tracing at the stern post, in order to see what the upper sternplate rounding will look like. I decided, for now, that I like the depth of the 1/4" extension. I corrected a measurement error for the sweep of the main wale's bottom edge location. I was then able to mark in the location for one of each type of port. I haven't finished drawing the arched dome of the square port. I will likely be making some decorative additions to the profile of this port.

So, the first step in the actual build of this project is that I must create a scale drawing that will enable me to layout the new stern plate, the new quarter galleries, and the new upper bulwark frieze. I will also be lowering the main and fore channels, and possibly the mizzen channels because they are modeled too high on Heller's kit. This drawing will enable me to properly layout the spacing of the shrouds as they relate to the masts and guns. I don't need a lines plan so much as a correctly scaled "field," in the plan view, which will enable me to begin layering and re-arranging details. In the near future, I will be digitizing these drawings, so that I can more easily manipulate and design without the constant need to rub away excess graphite, or face the daunting possibility that I might become really unhappy about some design aspect that I've committed to, and have to re-draw significant portions of the design. To get started, though, I used an old fashioned hard-lead pencil and a square, on vellum, to transfer the outline of the stern plate, lower hull and upper bulwarks. By necessity, I'll have to make two drawings: one aft and one forward. The first drawing was simply an outline of the kit sternplate, which I expanded from a centerline, 1/4" in each direction: This drawing is a bit confusing, because at the top most edge, I have included a tracing of the kit-moulded, goose-neck cornice, but I have established new height locations for the tafferal scroll, as well as the sheer terminus into the stern plate, and I have raised the waterline by 3/16". Dan Pariser pointed out to me that the upper sides of the stern plate could use a bit more tumblehome, in order to create a more consistent impression of Berain's stern. I agree with him, and that lead to draft #2: Upon examination of the fit between the kit upper bulwarks and the sternplate, it became clear to me that Heller straightens the profile of the upper stern plate in order to provide ample cover of the plate over the upper bulwarks. In remedy of this, I used the upper bulwark profile to make a new tumblehome pattern. I think the new hourglass profile of my stern plate more closely approximates Berain's intent. One must bear in mind that Berain's drawing of the stern is a proposal that was not drawn exactly to scale, and not yet applied to an actual ship. The guiding principle in this build will be to strike a balance between the artistry of Berain's drawings and the constraints of the moulded kit. In my opinion, this new profile is ship-worthy, and the increase in breadth, decrease in height, and raising of waterline already improve the model's stance. One can see that I've drawn in the field for the upper gallery of windows. This was my second attempt at re-drawing the expanded goose-neck cornice. I liked it at first, but when I placed it alongside Berain's schematic, I realized that the bottom of the scroll, as it leads inboard from the side lanterns, was a bit flat. I could see this more clearly, after I drew in the field for the tafferal, which suddenly seemed too top heavy with a broad, arched dome. Here I think I have successfully drawn in the cornice. I've added the middle tier of windows, and I have begun experimenting with my stern plate extension. Here, I've drawn in an 1/8" extension of the upper bulwarks that terminates in the lower, rounded gallery, above the hance pieces. My gut tells me that this isn't quite right, though; too shallow. In this revision, I've added spacing for the lowest tier of windows. I've increased the bulwark extension from 1/8" to 1/4," which I think makes for a more graceful transition into the hance pieces. I am also trying to draw in the rounding of the square tuck stern. Here I experiment with a hull outline that will be cut in from the moulded lower hull, on a line that leads forward. Although I have seen this detail a million times, it is still hard to visualize how exactly to reverse-engineer it into the build. I'm not happy with it, but I'm onto something. After spending the better part of a day thinking about it, I realized that the curvature of the rounded, square tuck stern has to come at the rabbet line into the stern post. To facilitate this, I added about a heavy 1/32" to the outside face of the kit's moulded stern post, so that I could create a curved rabbet line that increases in arc, very slightly, from the keel to the stern counter. This rounding of the stern will, eventually transfer into the upper stern plate because the underlying framing for the hance pieces and upper stern will follow the compound curve of the new stern counter; just as in full size practice. For the sake of reference points, I have maintained a hash-mark line along the original location of the kit's moulded stern post. I will also be cutting back the lower hull halves about a 1/16," on a more straight line that fades into the hance pieces, in order to make this detail more readily apparent. There is still some correction in line to be made at the stern post, just above the counter; this drawing does not reflect the continuity of profile of the new hance pieces, as they progress toward the centerline. To give a better sense for the assemblage of detail, I have drawn in, by eye, a rudder that pretty closely approximates what should be there. The fact that the new rounded stern lines don't neatly resolve into each other, below the waterline, is completely immaterial; everything below the waterline will be cut away. This is the perfect example where what I'm doing may not be exactly to scale, but I think the end-result will be the satisfactory addition of a detail that enhances the build, without raising huge red flags as to how I may have achieved it. I'm still not entirely satisfied with the 1/4"addition to the upper bulwarks, though. I will probably experiment with 3/16" because I think that 1/4" will actually be overly rounded and the delicate tassel carvings of this rounded, lower gallery might not look right. As for the hull, one can see the raised waterline, the bottom edge of the lower main wale, and the demarcation line between the top edge of the upper main deck wale and the upper bulwarks. I've also marked in the end-points for the steps in the sheer. Before I digitize, I will draw in one of each type of gunport, along with whatever enhancements to profile I intend for the main deck ports, as well as the quarter, poop and f'ocsle ports. For the time being, this is where I am at. More to come, as time allows.

Plus 1/2", Minus 3/8", Plus 1/4" My modification plans for the Heller kit are primarily concerned with three alterations, in dimension, to the standard kit. The first, and most significant change will be to add 1/2" of breadth to the hull, along the ship's entire centerline. As moulded, this is impossible. However, if the hull is cut away below the waterline - then, this alteration becomes quite feasible. The reason this will work is that the kit's bow is rather bluff enough that if one were to seperate the hull, at the bow, from the stem (after, of course, cutting away the lower hull), then one can insert, vertically and according to the curve of the bow and stem, a 1/4" insert piece that rejoins the hull with the stem. In actuality, it will probably need to be a 5/16" insert, in order to account for kerf loss when separating the stem. Repeat this process on the other side, and you now have the additional 1/2" of width that is necessary to incorporate the sixth (missing from the Tanneron model) stern light, shown in the Berain drawing (within, but not including the quarter gallery lights and openings). Then, all one has to do is fair in the filling piece, scribe in plank and grain lines to match, and fill in the missing wale segments. The drawback of doing this is that one would now have to scratch-build, entirely, the upper and lower stern, as well as the beakhead bulkhead. I prefer to view this as an opportunity to achieve a greater verisimilitude with Berain's conception of the ship. I'm sure many of you are wondering why I would go to all of that trouble to add one stern light. The answer is that I believe Tanneron mis-interpreted Berain's intent. Tanneron shows three open stern galleries above the stern counter. I believe this to be fundamentally incorrect. The clues are in the shading of Berain's drawing. What should appear, in three dimensions, is a fully closed tier just above the stern counter, which is supporting an open gallery across the middle two lights of the middle tier (although support for this middle tier, extends out another two lights overhanging the lowest tier), which is, in turn, supporting an open gallery across the middle two lights of the top tier. It is not possible to achieve this balanced transition from a four light support of a two-light open balcony, above, when you have an odd number of lights (Tanneron's five) to begin with. Additionally, it is my hypothesis that not one of those three balconies wrap, in an open fashion, to the quarter galleries. I realize I keep posting this image, but I would like to draw your attention to the shawows just above the lowest tier of windows. Notice the shadowing is heavier over the central four windows. There is just visible, the presence of a central corbal supporting a shallow gallery above, as well as support provided at the ends by the two caryatid figures. The same shading scenario presents in the gallery above, however, now it is only the central two windows where you can see a central supporting corbel. To the right side of this third gallery railing, one can see some rounding and shading to indicated a projection, or walkable gallery. In both the second and third tiers of windows, the walkable gallery only spans the central two windows, which in fact, would be twin doors, opening inward on each level. The arrangement of what I'm describing can be seen a little more clearly in this starboard, stern view of the Monarque of 1677: The ornament of this vessel was designed by Peter Puget, and while it may seem unwieldy and out of scale to our modern eye, so too did it seem to the captains of these ships. It is said that once out of view of the home port, the captains would order the carpenters to cut away the largest of figures, in order to improve maneuverability. Anyway, while the middle and top galleries of the Monarch may, indeed, wrap to the quarters, the central stern arrangement of closed lower gallery supporting middle four, supporting two, is plainly visible. One thing I am not yet certain of is whether the SR's quarter galleries are completely, or mostly closed. The first and third tier of Berain's draft are definitely glazed and closed, however, there may be an open walkway at the middle tier level, which is partially sheltered by an overhang from the third tier. This drawing of the Dauphin Royal, illustrates that possibility quite nicely: What I'm referring to is the corbel supported overhang of the lower tier on the quarter gallery. Here, the quarter gallery is closed from the stern. I believe it is possible that a similar overhang on SR exists between the second and third levels of the quarter galleries. And although it is difficult to see, this drawing which is thought to be of the Royal Louis of 1668, also attributed to Pierre Puget, seems to corroborate that arrangement: In this picture, above, one can just make out the single window of the third level, and what seems to be a projection of the quarter gallery, overhanging a walkway in the middle tier of the quarter gallery. The lower tier appears completely closed, as is the case on SR, below: If the middle tier of SR's quarter galleries is an open walkway, but closed to the stern, then the aft-most, arched window must be a door that provides access. Perhaps the answer lies in the black and white rendering of SR's quarters: The absence of any visible shadows leads me to believe that the middle tier is closed. I could probably go either way with this, but I'm sure the answer will become more clear to me as I render the quarter galleries, and come to fully understand their shaping and convolutions. Minus 3/8" The next major alteration would be to cut away the fourth sheer step, above the poop royal deck. I'm not sure, by the way, what this deck should actually be called, but I have to call it something. This amounts to a 3/8" reduction in sheer height. The reasons for doing this are several. The first and most obvious reason is that SR simply appears top-heavy with this fourth sheer step. Visually, it only contributes to the sense of her instability. There is, however, a wealth of contemporary (17th C.) evidence to support the assertion that a three-step sheer was the overwhelming norm, in the latter half of the 17th century, as is evident on La Reyne and Le Monarch. Here are a few more examples of second rates which were contemporaneous with SR, and illustrate the three-step sheer: Tanneron's model of L'Agreable, above Tanneron's model of Le Brilliant, above Van de Velde portrait of Le Courtisan, above Van de Velde portrait of an as-yet unidentified two-decker, above Le Joli All of the above, in addition to the previous illustrations of Le Monarque, and La Reyne demonstrate a three-step sheer line. And there are many others. In cutting away this fourth sheer step, I will be cutting across the pre-established deck level for the poop royal deck. I can't do away with it altogether, but I can shorten the deck, as necessary and pitch it, in line with the sheer, although set just beneath it. Referring, once again to the Royal Louis of 1668, this seems like a plausible solution. I may have to exaggerate camber, to allow reasonable headroom. Add 1/4" The third major alteration will be to add on a 1/4" hull extension to which the upper stern plate will be affixed. The reason for doing this is to make it possible to close the lowest balcony tier so that there is a rounded transition, below the first tier of lights and into the hance pieces. What I mean by this will become more evident in the next post, where I show you the progression of my plan drawings.

What a remarkable build, Liberto! Your ingenuity in tackling the gallery balustrades is really inspiring. Well done!