hamilton

Thanks Harlequin, but don't worry too much about it. I will cross that bridge when I get to it...I had the same problem envisaging the stern area of my Toulonnaise a while back, but once I started things got clear....this is a pig of a kit, though....I'm reminded of a quote from a movie I once saw about a crazy ring - "how can something so small cause so much fear and doubt?" True perhaps of many a model!

hamilton

These are perfect - thanks Harlequin! Great job, too! Can't wait to see your Bellona as it develops!

Quick question - are the angled planks attached directly to the stern face of bulkhead 13? I'm guessing they must be...I just can't imagine having that much space to work with down there myself, considering how much I've had to shorten the main deck at the stern....I also think I'll have to plank this area before second planking on the hull, again for structural reasons....

As I said, I think I might have to modify my planking at stern/counter, since I had to modify the main deck at the stern to accommodate bulkhead 13...here's a shot or two to illustrate.

You can see how the stern edges of the main deck and quarterdeck are now at quite a remove - the plans show the transom running parallel to bulkhead 13, but this will not be the case on my build....unless I modify the quarterdeck as well, which will shorten the model by about 3-5mm....

You can also see how little room there is for the transom supports underneath the main deck extension...I'll have to modify these, and this will also reduce the space available for the curve of the counter....all in all, I'm not sure I made the right choices in modifying the main deck - though the only other choice I had would have been to build an entirely new centre keel, which is well beyond my skill (apart from having no tools for such work).....

Anyway, thanks so much again for the pics - they clarify a lot!

hamilton

Great description, Janos - thanks a lot!

hamilton

This sounds like a simple yet very effective method - the benefit of the adhesive seems obvious - now that someone has pointed it out to me! I'll give this a try

hamilton

Well, I have taken a bit of time this morning juggling work and modelling and have managed to quickly shape the bulkheads to fit the skinny lower deck piece, and widen out the bulkhead slots on the deck for dry-fitting...

Of course this revealed a number of other issues with the kit design - some minor, like these:

And some seemingly major, like this:

It's clear that the bulkhead slots on the deck will need to be modified to fit bulkhead 13. However, given the amount of widening that needs to be done, I'm worried that this will create a lot of instability in the stern framing (those little slots at the aft end of the deck are for the vertical stern frames)....sheesh, Corel! What were you thinking?!

Anyway, I would rather this log not turn into a running set of complaints about the quality of the kit....at least these kinds of things present a decent challenge - perhaps a little more "stimulating" than the (probably non-existent) "perfect kit"....

Here are a couple of photos of the dry fit to this point....just to add some sense of progress here....

hamilton

I nominate Harlequin to start the whiskey tutorial!

As for cutting new bulkheads....that would be tough....if there were an accurate (or any) drawing of the hull lines included on the plans I could probably sort it out, but the main issue is tools - I'm a dining room table modeller, so for the present anything involving plugs and copious amounts of saw dust is not something I can really do.....soon though....soon....For now it's shimming and filling....but thanks for the encouragement Augie - it's much appreciated!

hamilton

Thanks Augie and Harlequin:

Augie - yes, something is definitely not right! If you look at the picture that shows the tops of the bulkhead frames, you'll see that they are all more or less level (though as I mentioned a lot needs to be done here), but at the bottoms of the bulkhead, these two (9 and 10) are roughly 3/16" higher than they ought to be.....

Harlequin - your solution makes sense. I've done this same thing on a number of builds, though never with such a gross error. It's going to take a lot of .5mm planks to build this area up, but that is probably the best way to keep the general contour of the bulkhead and thus the lines of the hull....like you, I will proceed with making the framework and not deal with these until I have to at the first planking - when I'll probably also discover some other minor errors. Maybe it's time I learned how to drink whiskey.....

hamilton

Hi there:

I've officially begun the Greyhound and can already say that I feel driven to drink, just as Harlequin predicted!! Here's a digest:

1. I used the kit-supplied templates of the CNC parts (sheet 4 of the plans) to ascertain how much trimming and shimming the bulkheads needed (given how profoundly off the plans were with respect to the keel, I didn't even bother with that - I'm just going to take the CNC keel as-cut as my baseline reference point and go from there). They all needed something more or less - not unexpected in any kit, I suppose. Here's a representative sample

2. I then began to dry-fit the bulkheads to the keel - focusing my efforts solely on getting a good fit between these parts & not really paying attention to the outboard parts of the keel, the inner parts of the bulkheads (which define the rather skinny lower deck), or the inboard bulkhead extensions. Not to say there isn't any work to be done there - as you can see from this shot

3. It took a couple of evenings work to dry fit all 13 bulkheads. Everything between bulkhead 1 and 8 seemed alright, but when I fit bulkhead 9, I noticed something - the bottom of the bulkhead was significantly higher than the bottom of bulkhead 8, even though both should have hit a (currently imaginary) bearding line at an equal distance from the bottom of the keel...when I first fit it, I thought that there was no way that the bearding line should be sweeping up at that point on the hull...

4. When I fit bulkheads 10 and 11, I could easily see that something was wrong - the bottom of bulkhead 10 was at the same level as bulkhead 9, but bulkhead 11 struck at that same imaginary bearding line as bulkhead 8 had done....Check it out.

Having built a number of kits before I've had to do my fair share of shimming the outboard edge of bulkheads to get an even flow of planking, but nothing like this!! My main concern now is that, with no line drawings provided with the kit, I actually have no idea how to shim up these bulkheads and maintain a clean flow of the planking....And if I just follow the bulkhead templates they tell me that these bulkheads are correct, when clearly they are not!!!

Another worry is that once these 2 bulkheads are "corrected", I will also need to "correct" the bulkheads aft...not a "worry", I suppose, but just a lot of niggling work with no reference to work from!

If this were my first Corel kit I would probably never buy another....Anyway, advice, encouragement, and mail order alcohol (same day delivery if possible) are all welcome at this point.....

hamilton

Hello everyone:

So I've completed my revision of the detailed parts list, rigging table and belaying plans for the Corel HMS Greyhound. I would like to offer these to anyone entering into this build (free, obviously), if you would like. I can't promise they will be useful, since they come out of my brain in relation to the inadequacies of the Corel kit as I have perceived them...but they may be of help....

Anyway, if anyone wants these, send me a PM and I'll send them on as PDFs. 

hamilton

Great job on the companionway! And on the build on the whole.

hamilton

Excellent work Harlequin! I hope I can get mine looking this good. I admire your tenacity in re-doing things that you're not entirely satisfied with - too often I just decide to live with them! I'll try to take a page from your book. Anyway - really nice to look at!
hamilton

Well, Harlequin, I never properly learned how to drink whiskey - though I know my way around a Tom Collins or a Manhattan....we'll see how bad it gets!

Augie - I have to say that I'm surprised with the low quality of this kit. I've built 3 Corel kits (the Brittany Sloop, the Flattie and the Toulonnaise) and I have the Bellona up on the shelf. The ones I've built were really top notch and the Bellona certainly is of very high quality all around. It seems as if the Greyhound was a bit of a rush-to-market or something - hastily put together and so rather sloppy. The illustrated instructions remind me of the booklet that came with the ME/Amati Bluenose I built last year - also vague and frustrating, though on a much less complicated build. If Corel beefed up the plans (adding at least 3 sheets - one separating out the hull profile/deck plans to give more construction details and showing the bow and stern; one for standing rigging and scale mast details; one for running rigging and spar details) this would be a great kit. The quality of the wood and fittings is up to the usual Corel standard. A bit more effort would make this a truly excellent kit....

Anyway, now that Harlequin has pointed out his attempts at using other ship's boats, I'm worried that the one I ordered won't work out....oh well! It's only $8 right? I can't allow myself to have ME on speed dial or I'd be building my boats out a cardboard box....

hamilton

Hi Harlequin:

Thanks for the encouragement! Most definitely needed with this kit! But you're right - I think it will look great with a few "improvements". I've actually ordered a small plank-on-frame ship's boat kit from model expo which is roughly the same size (about 1/16 off the size of the metal boat included with the kit). It only cost $8.00 so I figured, why not! I was already ordering extra 1/8" eyebolts, black rigging thread, shroud cleats, and a bunch of other stuff, so....

I was actually thinking of dealing with that forward rail by tracing the pattern and cutting it out of a slightly thicker-than-it-has-to-be sheet and then sanding it down to a more appropriate thickness...or perhaps doing it in 2 port and starboard sections and just filling the gap between them. 

One part of the kit that is extremely vague and that I haven't come to terms with yet is the bowsprit seating....It appears that the bowsprit just kind of goes into the deck....but there is very little guidance from Corel on this....I may throw you a question or two when the time comes, hope you won't mind the interruption to your Bellona (which I'm really looking forward to seeing, by the way). 

Thanks again and bye for now - maybe eventually I'll actually start building this kit!!

hamilton

Good evening! 

Well, against all sane advice I've pressed on with my complete revision of Corel's documentation. I have now finished my revised parts list and my preliminary rigging tables (the latter is subject to change based on what I learn from the literature I've ordered....). Here are some highlights:

1. Corel's instruction booklet gives no indication of the size/length or features included on the masts & spars, so I've added all of those to the list

2. I've also added some features omitted altogether (like spritsail yard jeers, some cannon rigging elements, etc.)

3. I've allowed for the scratch building of several parts (the ship's boat, the f'csl rail, e.g.) - breaking these parts into components

4. The rigging plan is sequential and individualises each rigging element (block, ringbolt, timberhead, deadeye & sheave)

I'm not sure that what I've done will be useful to anyone but myself, but if anyone is interested in having it just for reference, I'd be happy to share - send me a PM with your email and I'll get them out (not sure where to "publish" them here and given that it is very "kit specific" I'm not sure how appropriate it is to do so.....)

The major issue with my revisions is that they make Corel's plans and instructions superfluous, so it would be hard to use both this and the Corel stuff at the same time. I had thought for a while of redrawing the plans, but I have only done this in order to develop a belaying plan (in 2 sheets, one for the deck and one for the inboard and outboard bulwarks). I figure that if you ignore the numbers on Corel's documentation and just take measurements where necessary these should work....

Anyway, perhaps it's nuts to spend so much time doing something like this, and I guess it probably wasn't necessary to have such an extreme reaction to a poor set of plans/instructions...but I already feel better about building this kit now that I've done this - and I found a great number of errors and pitfalls that I feel I can work around having done such a detailed review of the kit....

Here are a couple of shots of the deck plan that I made this evening to map out the belaying arrangement based on Corel's drawing and my parts list/rigging table....it's pretty rough....but...

hamilton

Definitely one to follow! I'm tempted to start my Bellona now so I can have someone to build with! But I don't think I have the skills yet to match the beauty of this ship....I'll be following this with great interest!

hamilton

Hi Dave:

Though my name's hamilton, I've never been to Hamilton - I was born in Montreal, grew up in Fredericton, New Brunswick and have lived for the last 17 years (minus 4 between Montreal and Seoul) in Vancouver. 

As for Lees, thanks for the references! I just got an email saying that the expected delivery date is April 27!! How will I wait? Anyway, maybe I'll do some yard work for the next month to pass the time.....

hamilton

Thanks a lot Jay - the funny thing is I was looking for this thread last week when I was finishing off a build and wanting some suggestions for rope coils! It'll definitely come in handy on the next one.

hamilton

Hi John:

Good to know re, shroud cleats. And thanks for the tip on Lees - I just ordered my copy! Almost ready now....

hamilton

Yes John and Dave - very helpful - though with all this extra rigging I'm fast running out of potential places to put all the lines! I haven't been able to find Lees book at a local library and I'm afraid I'm unwilling to pay over $100 for it, which is the minimum I've been able to find.....if anyone has a copy I'll pay to have it shipped here and I'll ship it back to you nice and neat! I'm very good with books!

Another question - would a ship of this size/rate/era have had shroud cleats on either the lower or topmast shrouds? Or both? Or none? I know, I know - I should be waiting for all my literature to arrive, but the answers here have been so good and so fast! I can't help it!!

hamilton

Hi Jackson:

Short answer - yes, you cut it from 2mm x 4mm walnut (though if you have a softer wood of the same dimensions lying around, like lime or basswood, I'd use that - no sense using nice walnut for a structural feature that will go completely unseen.

Now having said that, there are A LOT of problems that I can foresee in installing this seemingly simple piece - this is part of the overall poor instructions/plans that Corel has included with this kit. So even though it seems straightforward I would approach it with some caution. Let me explain.

The beam supports the aft end of the quarterdeck (piece 20) and is shown in the instruction booklet as having a distinct curve (or camber). But since there is no scale drawing of the transom or stern section of the model, there is no telling exactly what this camber is from the plans....it seems that Corel expected us to guess!

The solution is actually in part 19, the metal part included for the cabin bulkhead, which supports the forward end of the quarterdeck and the curve of whose top should match that of the beam (18). The top of this part has a very slight camber, which (if you're going to use this part as opposed to scratch building it) should be traced onto a slightly thicker piece of 4mm wide wood - 3mm or 4mm x 4mm would work for this. Trace the camber of part 19 onto the wood strip, cut it to length (using the bulkhead 13 as your reference) and shape just the one side of it. Then cut the opposite edge of the wood flat so that it measures 2mm x 4mm at both ends. It is not necessary to cut the curve into the bottom, since this part is only included to support the quarterdeck and will not be seen. And in not cutting the curve it will be easier to place on the model.

I would also do a bit of dry fitting of all these pieces (your shaped part 18, part 19 and the quarterdeck, part 20)  first, to determine that the notches in bulkhead 13, where you lay (18), are even in height with one another and with the cabin bulkhead (which fits between the bulkhead extensions of bulkhead 12). If you find that your quarterdeck is sloping either aft or forward, you'll have to modify the notches in bulkhead 13 where you fit the beam - either sanding them down or shimming them up so that the quarterdeck is nice and even fore and aft.

Anyway, sorry for such a long response to a short question! I hope this is helpful. This seems like it's going to be a really nice model when it's done, though given the generally poor quality of the plans it may be more or less frustrating to get there.

Though some here might think me foolish for doing so, I've basically begun (and now almost finished) completely re-jigging Corel's numbering system and elaborating a detailed parts list, rigging table and belaying plan. I would be happy to share these with you at any time you begin to get a sense of the inadequacy of Corel's instructions/plans. Using my modified tables involves going through Corel's plans/instructions and making changes to the numbers they include. I'm no artist so there is no graphical dimension to what I've done (except some very crude plan & profile drawings to show belaying points), and it might not make sense to others! But for me it was a good way to identify a number of omissions, inconsistencies and errors in Corel's documentation.

My current version of these modified tables (though almost done) is probably going to be heavily modified again once I get Goodwin's Anatomy of the Ship HMS Blandford (a ship nearly identical to Greyhound) from Amazon, which should be shortly....anyway if you PM me an email address I can send these to you once they're complete....don't know if you'll find them useful but...I'm happy to share and to answer any questions too.

Do you have a build log going here? You should start one if not!

hamilton

Well I've almost completed making the rigging table for Greyhound but I was getting so frustrated with the often random way that Corel has numbered parts and particularly the fact that the plans do not indicate or distinguish between things like belaying pins, timberheads, cleats and so on, that I've decided to generate what I think is a sensible parts list put together in the progressive order of the build.

The parts list will essentially allow me to develop a much more detailed view of the build but will ultimately require me to modify the plans and instruction booklet so that I don't get too confused during those times when I have to use them as a reference....Of course it will also mean that I have to completely revise my rigging plan, since the numbering system I used to identify lines, blocks and belaying points was derived from the kit....

Anyway, today I put quite a bit of time into the new parts list as well as into the rigging table. Tomorrow I'll complete the parts list, modify the plans, and begin revising the rigging table/belaying plan....

This could be a complete waste of time, as well, since one the literature starts arriving I may have to revise everything again! 

Once everything gets finalised I will post the rigging table, parts list and belaying plans here for anyone thinking of making this kit in the future

hamilton

Excellent - clearly and simply put and well illustrated! I feel better already. Thanks BE! and all on this thread for your help and encouragement

hamilton

Thanks BE - I was suspicious of the presence of so many pins on a ship of this vintage - the having some helps to figure out the rigging/belaying. 

I've made a couple of plan sheets of my own (very crude) to replicate the layout of the belaying points as shown by Corel. I've also begun to make a rigging table based on the Corel plans. Having begun this latter, I now see the need to go through the entire kit and re-number everything after the basic hull construction....a bit of a headache, but Corel were not very dilligent or complete on the masting and rigging and so I'll need to re-number, modify the existing plans and then make new clean plans and a final rigging table of my own based on the sources at my disposal.

I've located a copy of Anderson's book at the University of BC library, to which I'll pay a visit soon....Anyway, lots of work to do. It's actually a heck of a lot more interesting to have to do all this work first before launching into the build itself. I feel like I'm building up a kind of "intimacy" with the ship that I missed on other builds....

I may actually build this one as the Blandford, though the scale is a bit off from Goodwin (1:100 as opposed to 1:96) - could anyone give a complete math idiot (me) a quick tip on scale conversion? Maybe I'll post this topic in another thread.....

hamilton

Yet another question regarding the 20-gun ship of 1720 (though if I had more patience I could just wait for the AOS Blandford to arrive...

Were such ships rigged with stay sails? I'm putting together my rigging/belaying plan and rigging tables and was not sure - there is no indication (surprise!) in the Corel instructions/plans...but if anyone knows....Thanks!

hamilton