LJP

I had not planked a hull in a long time and it showed. Unlike Chaperon, Bertrand and others that had bottom planks that were flat, Thistle had planks that bent at the stem and stern, not unlike a clipper ship. Thistle did have bottom planks that were considerably wider than the side planks as noted in the Paul L photos. Thistle’s actual bottom planks were made of oak, and the side planks of Eastern white pine. Paul Ls. bottom planks were made of Cyprus and the side planks Douglas fir. Keels of both were local oak. The 1894 Thistle was able to use local wood but the supply was depleted by the time of the 1907 Paul L. Initially, I tried just tapering the planks. Huge mistake. I removed the mistake and decided to do it the correct way with spiling the planks. I referred to Model Ship World articles on the process and consulted a 1980s vintage book that I owned on planking. I used poster board to create the templates for each row of planks. That was much easier to bend and trim than the actual basswood planks. One template could be used for both the port and starboard side. It was heartening to discover that my hull was symmetrical. The wood planks still required beveling the edges and bending. My keel frame did not have the stem post attached. Instead of cutting in the rabbits, I ran a 1/16 square stock from stem to stern on the keel frame. The planks then abutted this. The frame at the stem was tapered to meet the 1/16 square stock and the ends of the planks tapered to meet the square stock. After the hull was planked, I ran wider stock over the smaller square stock on the bottom to portray the keel that Thistle had. A stem post was added. The stern had a curved stock to follow the spoon shaped stern. In this photo, I had just started the correct planking process. Note the line demarcations on the frames where the individual planks were to be affixed. I started with few planks by the sheer strakes to add stability. I then went down to the keel and garboard strake and planked from there up. The second product looked much better than the first try. Off to building the guards and rudders.

Hi Bob & Roger! I am back. I really struggled with the hull. I also have an admission: the planked hull is complete and I am currently working on the guards and rudders. I will go through my process, my mistakes and reworks. I wanted a complete hull before I started my post because I had no idea how long it was going to take or how many blind alleys I would follow. Both were time and mistakes were considerable. Creating the hull for the Thistle included two main sources. The hull sheer came from Thistle photos. But I had no idea what the hull was like below the waterline. Instead, I used Paul L. photos as capsized to create the water and rib lines. Thistle and Paul L. had virtually identical hull dimensions, had the same builder (Ryan) and the same owner when the Paul L. was built (LeFevre). There are several photos that I found the helpful in creating the hull. This is the bow of the Paul L. while under construction. George Ryan is the man in the center. Note the massive stempost (Thistle’s was even larger), the bow frames were not canted, and beginning with the 7th frame, the frames are doubled up to the water line. This construction was typical for Ryan based upon accounts of other Ryan built boats. Reprinted with permission Neenah (Wisconsin) Historical Society. A bow photo that shows the flat bottom, a true keel, rounded futtocks, and a sharp model bow. Reprinted with permission Neenah (Wisconsin) Historical Society. There are several other bow shots that I consulted during the build. I also own several postcards of the capsized Paul L. There are two Paul L. stern photos from The Oshkosh (Wisconsin) Public Museum – the links are provided below. I was not timely in requesting permission to reprint here but the links will bring you to the low-resolution photos. Note the balanced rudder, the Ryan “spoon shaped stern” described in period articles, paddlewheel detail and other items. The museum has high quality digital jpg’s for purchase, which I did purchase. The enhanced digital photos are clear enough to permit the number of planks to be counted. This was incorporated into the model. You could also see many of the bolts which held the planks to the frames. Steamboat "Paul L " Capsized - FP2003.20.734 (pastperfectonline.com) Steamboat "Paul L " Capsized - P6767.2 (pastperfectonline.com) Interestingly, the barged-out hull of the Paul L. lies under water in the Fox River between locks 2 & 3 in Appleton. It was dived on by scuba divers and a video created in about 1995. The green mossy hulk was interesting but not helpful in the build. A quarter century later I was not willing to have more scuba divers hopefully locate and once again dive on the wreck. The video, should you like review it, is located at: https://archive.org/details/WiscRiverboats I consulted Bertrand’s lines to help me. John M. Sweeney’s contemporary River Practice of the West from the Transactions of American Society of Mechanical Engineers (Volume IX) provided lines and hull cross sections. Circa 1890’s, I am lucky enough to have an original copy of this. The Institute of Nautical Archeology has a whole series of Yukon sternwheeler articles. In many respects, Fox and Yukon boats were very similar. My first step was to build a full-scale rough bulk head hull model using architectural foam and balsa. Many, many iterations and adjustments later, I sliced it into sections to create the frames. I decided to build a plank on bulkhead hull for the model instead of using actual individual frames like the real hull would have used. My generated frames did not line up with where the expected actual frames would have been. But I will be able to take the lines off of the plank on bulkhead hull should I decide to build another Ryan sternwheeler. But not now. This is what the completed framing looks like. The open, boxed in area is for the boiler. Ryan used Scotch Marine boilers located within the hull instead of Western River boilers which were typically placed on the main deck. I tried using bulkheads with a cutout for the boiler but those were incredibly weak and I broke numerous ones before I used this box layout. Photos of the hull of the Yukon sternwheeler Gleaner show how the supports for a boiler installed in a hull looked. You can find the Murray Lundberg photos posted at http://explorenorth.com/library/ships/bl-gleaner.htm A bit of a diversion here. Gleaner’s machinery came from the Marine Iron Works of Chicago USA (MIWC). MIWC provided actual blueprints for building the sternwheeler when all the machinery was provided by them. So, the remains may be from a set of those blueprints – which I have been unable to locate. Alternatively, MIWC also provided a compete hull in knockdown form which was then sent to the owner along with the machinery and blueprints. The owner then reassembled the hull. The next section will cover how I planked the hull.

Hi Tony, I am really looking forward to the wheelhouse also. From the pilothouse's size perspective, Thistle's wheel was described as "about six feet across". Emil Steiger, one of the owners, loaned the wheel to the Oshkosh Yacht Club when Thistle was dismantled. I am unaware if it is still there. I really like the roof but expect it will be a problem to model. Many of the actual roofs were tin over wood framing. Steamboats.com Online Museum - Dave Thomson Wing has photos of the pilothouse of the Golden Eagle that shows how the inside structure was built. I will be posting the hull construction in about a week. In the meantime, I will be unavailable. Thanks, LJP

There were no plans of Thistle that I could find so I needed to create my own. I have really tried to make them as accurate as possible. There was a model of Thistle made years ago. It may have been lost when the Oshkosh Public Museum had a fire that destroyed their steamboat section in the 1990’s. I decided on a 1:64 scale. Thistle’s overall nominal length was 144 feet, so the scale length was just under 24 inches. Just the right length to fit on my shelving while still allowing for enough detail. I was able to obtain only a few actual Thistle measurements beyond the legal dimensions. One of the most important was that the height of the bulwarks plus railing was 3 ½ feet. With my trusty digital calipers, I began measuring numerous components on the even more numerous photos. I filled up many Excel spreadsheets with computations. I tried to recreate the same measurements using several different photos in order to ensure accuracy. Then I starting drawing plans – again and again and again. It truly took a long time and many iterations before a final set of plans was complete. While the side profile took some time, to get the top-down drawings and profiles to accurately tie out required many revisions. Simply put, if the measurements were not correct the two would not fit together. This is what my Thistle will look like. The time period is about 1910 to 1912. I did top-down plans for each deck and another for each underside showing the beams and carlings. This latter was really important in improving placement for the various components. I included the hull even though I will do a plank on frame hull. I really needed to understand where things were placed within the hull so I can accurately place the items above the hull. Hope this all makes sense. These are the eleven sheets that created. Some have already been tweaked as I started the build. I also created but have not included a stern and bow profile. I started this project with very little knowledge of sternwheelers. I took numerous detours here as I headed off to learn more about steamboats in general and the Fox-Wisconsin Waterway and its steamboats. I reviewed other Fox-Wisconsin Waterway boats and other Ryan built boats. The most helpful by far was the sistership 1907 Paul L. (as in LeFevre). In May 1910, the Paul L. was unloading coal at an Oshkosh dock. Amazingly, the coal was off loaded from only the starboard side and not the port side. Results were predictable. The Paul L. capsized. This was bad for the Paul L. but great for me as a modeler. Numerous photos of the catastrophe were taken. These provided a level of detail normally not available. Especially helpful were the details of the hull including two stern views that is online at the Oshkosh Public Museum. Primary general information came from the “usual suspects”: Bates, Kane, Hunter, Petsche and Sweeney. I followed what others had done on Model Ship World (Thanks Cathead!), obtained William F. Wiseman’s Nautical Research Guild articles on the Myrtle Corey and Far West and Kurt Van Dahm’s Chaperon from Ships In Scale. Websites of existing period sternwheelers included the S. S. Sicamus and S. S Moyie. There are many, many other sources too numerous to mention here, but the Institute of Nautical Archeology’s Yukon studies were very helpful. There are many other steamboat related websites that were used. Periodicals as Beeson, the American Bluebook of Shipping, and brochures from the Marine Iron Works of Chicago USA provided valuable information and details on period equipment. And there are tons of books which provided general or information specific to one steamboat. I became a voracious reader during the cold Wisconsin winters. With the “final” plans in place, I started the hull.

Hi All, Roger, Thanks for making me an honorary Great Laker! My early life was on the shores of the Lake Michigan, with carferries and fish tugs out my back door. chborgm, glad to see you did both the Chaperon and Portland. Two very different but wonderful steamboats. Kurt, after the lapse in time, you probably thought that I had abandoned the project. Actually I was doing research as I started with very little knowledge of sternwheelers. I now have learned a lot but am amazed at how little I still know. I cut the six parts of your Ships In Scale Chaperon article out and have referred to them as I have progressed. It has been very helpful. Bridgman, no one was more surprised to learn about steamboats on the Fox than me. I hope to post the plans section later today.

Hi Cathead, Jim & Tony Thanks for your interest! Cathead, I loved your builds and followed them closely. I should be able to post the plans section in the next day or so. LJP

It has been a while since I began this process. And … it will be a while before it is completed. I first became aware that there even were steamboats in the Fox River Valley when I got a copy of D. C. Mitchell’s Steamboats on the Fox River. I loved the book and all of its photos but Thistle’s octagonal pilot house caught my attention. Thus began a long research and drafting process. The Thistle was built as the J. H. Crawford in 1894 by Ryan Brothers of Oshkosh, Wisconsin for the Wolf River Transportation and Merchandising Company. George Ryan and his brother were Canadians who learned shipbuilding at Short Brothers in Maine. They also built Great Lake boats in Sheboygan and Manitowoc before they finally began ship building in Oshkosh. This background had a profound effect upon the vessels they built. They modeled and lofted their boats. And George never referred to their creations as boats, they were always “ships”. Their boats were what Hunter called the Mosquito Fleet as their size was limited by the 145 by 36-foot Fox River locks. Their long-lived boats were strongly constructed to weather the shallow but tempestuous Lake Winnebago. The J H Crawford was nominally 130 feet long overall with a 25-foot beam. The new owners immediately had a falling out over the proposed Wolf River route for the Crawford. Eight months later the Crawford was sold to the company of McKenzie & [ John H.] Crawford. In 1899 they in turn sold the Crawford to Clark and LeFevre. Clark & LeFevre lengthened the boat by 14 feet and renamed it Thistle. Clark & LeFevre combined interests with the Oshkosh Steamboat Company in 1906. Thistle was finally dismantled at Green Bay in 1915 after a long 21-year life. Thistle had two distinct looks during its life: . Thistle at Berlin, Wisconsin in 1901. Note the double stairs to the saloon deck, main deck with bull rails but without windows or mid-deck bulwarks. The bow bulwarks were added in 1901. This is what the J. H. Crawford probably looked like, albeit 14 feet shorter. Reprinted with permission from the Berlin (Wisconsin) Area Historical Society Thistle at Omro during the period 1904 to 1909. Now there was a grand staircase to the saloon deck, the main deck had windows and there was a mid-deck enclosure. The bull rails were replaced with bulwarks – a very unusual feature. Note the fore bulwarks had a canvas shade drawn down over it. This was used periodically to protect passengers from the elements. This is one of my numerous postcards. The usual routes used by Thistle were on the Lower Fox River from Appleton to Green Bay, the Upper Fox as far as Berlin, the Wolf River as far north as New London, and the east coast of Lake Winnebago. The boat was initially a packet on a regular schedule with freight and passengers. Later years it was primarily used for excursions and for hauling bulk freight, as coal, lumber and wire grass. It was a day boat with no overnight accommodations for passengers although the captain and crew were housed on the boat. Thistle had a normal but long life. This included strandings, sinkings, fires, and unfortunately deaths. The ice-free season was short – typically from mid-April until November – and was dictated by the federal government as to when the bridges and locks would be staffed. In one instance, Thistle used its anchors to break the ice but the ice still cut an inch into the gangplanks which had been hung over its sides. Thistle also ran backwards to use its paddlewheel to break either the ice or the floating bogs that formed in the shallow lakes. But it was ice that eventually caused its demise. In November 1913, Thistle was driven ashore in ice on the east side of Lake Winnebago. Although rescued and run during 1914 season, that damage, a decreasing business, two newer underutilized sternwheelers and a budding World War I could not justify the cost of repairs. It was sent to the breakers in August 1915. Thistle was an excursion craft during a period when many photos were taken and many were used in creating postcards. I ended up with more than 40 photos of Thistle. I bought some on eBay, some came from the D. C Mitchell book, while others came from museums, historical societies and libraries. NewspaperARCHIVE and Newspapers.com provided local period newspaper articles. Local magazines, articles and books contained helpful information. A trip was made to the Steamboat House at the Winneconne Historical Society Museum in Marble Park. Its sole surviving Fox River Valley steamboat superstructure includes some incredible original staterooms. I was very busy taking measurements and photos. In my next post, I will describe how I made Thistle’s plans and include some of those plans.

Incredible photos!

Eric, will this be recorded on YouTube or Zoom so it can be viewed later? I have a conflict at that time that I cannot break. Thanks, LJP

Excellent! Your model is exquisite! And I have ordered an NRG 2021 calendar. LJP

Just got through binge reading your post on Arabia. Wonderful work! Along with your Bertrand, your skills are truly exceptional. I especially like your hull construction on both models. Few people are willing to take a crack at models such as these. I can hardly wait to see the finished product. LJP

Hi Mark, Really neat local sternwheelers! Hard to choose which is the "best". The 50 foot waterline model looks exactly like a Marine Iron Works of Chicago sternwheeler. If you have not acquired a copy of a 1986 reprint of their catalog you may wish to do so. I am certain you will find it both interesting and helpful. I wish you the best of luck making plans and then scratch building. It may not be a fast process but it will be incredibly gratifying. Larry

Hi Bill! Thanks for the info, sounds like someone who has insights from prior trips there. And looking forward to the wine. Thanks, LJP

Thanks Fright! Getting closer to drawing plans. Amazing how sources you would never think to use are incredibly helpful and ones that you expect to use wash out. LJP

Hi Eric, older people can also be dumb. I speak from experience. I should have also spent more time there and taken more pictures. And I never knew about the Evelyn on Shipyard Island until years after. But I appreciate what I have done and learn from it. So next time... Hi Bill, Thanks about the Sicamous info. Very impressive. There are YouTube videos about Sicamous that are great. And I would like to visit Moyie in Kaslo at the same time. In the next few years I want to head back to Vancouver and these two stops are definitely an add-on. Thanks LJP

Hi Michael, I loved the Yukon and want to make it up there again. Wonderful country & people. Murray Lundberg & ExploreNorth have recent photos of the graveyard. As expected, nature has truly taken its toll and now it appears graffiti has found its way onto the wrecks. How sad. Hi Kurt, I have FINALLY found the Thistle build articles in newspaper accounts. Those provided lots of info and confirmed some of the measurements that I had made. But some of that information directly contradicts engine and boiler information that I had obtained from another source. I still want to do the archive research during the long cold Wisconsin winters and go from there regardless of what I do or do not find. The boiler photo has nothing I can compare to measure against. Again, the photo is really poor quality so unless I can find a better quality photo, its use is more of info and less of building assistance. Thanks, LJP

Hi Patrick, and a warm welcome to all of Belgium. The steamboat that I will build, Thistle, appears to have been owned for many years by a family with Belgian ancestry. The Lefevre family name is prevalent in the Belgian settlement community northeast of Green Bay in Door County, although the Thistle family was located in Tustin. Hi Kurt, I could not agree with you more on research rut. But I would really like to have the type and dimensions of the final Thistle boiler so I can determine if I can set the boiler on the main deck (8’ height) or if it needs to be set within the hull like its sister ship Paul L. (a 9’ Scotch Marine boiler). The initial 6 x 12 firebox boiler lasted until 1899 when the then J. H. Crawford was lengthened 14’, renamed Thistle and “two new boilers were put in her lower deck”. New boilers were again added quickly in 1901 and boilers were overhauled in 1914. Ironically, at least one of the 1914 boilers ended up heating an Oshkosh school until the mid-1960’s. I have a very poor-quality newspaper photo of that boiler. I would hope that archival boiler inspection records from the Eighth District will provide an answer. If not, then it is “reconstruction” time. Sadly, possible research literally “went up in smoke” when a fire at the Oshkosh Public Museum in 1994 destroyed their model steamboats and materials. Thanks! LJP

EJ_L, Jim and Geoff thanks for the warm "On Board"! EJ_L, I expect it will take me another year before I complete the research and actually begin building. I keep finding new info which makes me modify the draft plans which I have created. This has really been an interesting process doing the research and I love it. Stay tuned but research and then build is a new process for me and it is taking a long time.

reklein, thanks for the info. I found the historical society but you are correct that it will take some googling to find the catalog. I will find it... Eric, I am jealous that you were there for the '98 Centennial. When I was there in '95 the steamboat Keno in Dawson was closed for renovations for the Centennial. And the Klondike and Nenana were closed for the day by the time the tour got there and we had to leave before they opened the next morning. Walking around them is not like wandering around in them.

Earlier in the forum, I noted comments on the steamboat graveyard across from Dawson City. I have attached several photos that I took in 1995. The steamboats had long since collapsed, were unsafe to walk upon and completely enclosed by the underbrush. Hope you like 'em. LJP

Thanks for the warm welcome! And Kurt, thanks for the Bates info. I have no idea why it took me so long to get onto MSW...

Not quite a year ago I returned to modeling after a long hiatus. Work, life and an incredibly long post-retirement “honey -do” list had kept me from this hobby. In the past, everything was about clipper ships. I had kit bashed models of Cutty Sark (one still uncompleted and may never get done), Thermopylae, Flying Cloud and hull sections. The prospect of returning to spars, masts and rigging no longer intrigues me as it once did. Over that sabbatical I was able to visit museums and museum ships as part of business trips or vacations. On a trip in 1995 what really caught my eye was the Klondike Gold Rush steamboats. I was able to visit the Klondike, Keno and Nenana, along with the remains of the Tutshi and the Dawson City steamboat graveyard. The Institute of Nautical Archeology, John Pollard et al., has had a wonderful series of surveys done on these and other Klondike steamboats. I loved the steamboats but really wanted to research and scratch build a sternwheeler with local interest. I chose the Thistle (1894) of Oshkosh, Wisconsin partially because of its unusual octagonal pilothouse. As a sternwheeler with a 21-year life, although no hull plans exist (no surprise there) there are numerous photos, similar sternwheelers and newspaper articles to draw from. And lots of general publications as Bates, Hunter, Kane and others. And of course, the MSW feeds on Bertrand, Arabia, Herione and Eric’s excellent forum on steamboats. What amazes me is the quality of the models, but also the willingness of all to answer questions non-judgmentally. While I may never rise to that level of mastership and it will take much longer than most, I really appreciate the wonderful interaction with like minded people, regardless of their skill levels or where they live. Thanks, LJP