ClipperFan
-
Posts
2,118 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Gallery
Events
Everything posted by ClipperFan
-
Vladimir, I commend you on your enthusiasm in wanting to create your model of "Glory of the Seas." It also impresses me when I see the precisely clean lines computer aided drafting can accomplish. It's not my intention to dissuade your excitement but I want to point out some easily observable corrections you might want to make. If you look at a detail section of Glory's Bow, even without measuring it's apparent that her section above the waterline is taller above than below. Rob and I calculate that she's 25' above and 22' below at the apex of her Bow and she has a -8 1/2 degree from 90 degree verticle Stem. Since that's been calculated from her 1869 scene on the Ways, it can be considered more reliable than later images which we now conclude are marred by up to 16' keel hogging. Your profile has Glory's Bow being lower above than below. If you add 3' to the 22' waterline, you'll have the accurate Bow height. Rob has also calculated her Naval Hoods to be 15' from her Bow to tip just 18" behind her 7 1/2' Grecian Goddess 'Athene' figurehead. Athene has now been determined to project 7 1/2' from the #1 iron band of the Bowsprit and 9' from where the Bowsprit emanates from the Bow. Then her flower endorned carved arch on the Cutwater actually has a larger width at its base than the section of Naval Hood above. While it seems to stay the same width, it gets just a little wider closer to the Bow. The 1877 image of Glory at a San Francisco dockside show this and also gives a clear indication of her graceful sheer which drops 7' at the center of her Main shrouds before gradually rising at a lower level at her stern. Mike, myself and Rob have had a spirited debate about the 22.30 degree Bowsprit steeve. As I've constantly highlighted using other McKay Clippers, that angle of inclination doesn't fit evenly into an inches to feet measurement, which every other one of McKay's vessels do. For that reason, I still favor a 4 1/2" to 1' steeve or 20.60 degrees. That's about exactly the measurement of the latest crystal clear Bow and figurehead close up. At the base of her Stem there's a small, graceful curve which transitions to her keel. There's some confusion as to actual length of Glory's keel. In her actual registration it's given as 240.2' while the length in her Dry Dock measurement is 235'. Mike told me he believes the discrepancy is due an inability to place a keel block under the curve at the base of her Stem. One last observation is that your stern post appears to incline slightly backwards into her Hull. Maybe it's the angle at which your picture was taken, it's hard to tell. Either way, McKay's ships all had verticle sternposts or slightly inclined out. The last image shows Glory being towed to Alaska as a Salmon processing barge. If you look very closely at her Stern it's not flat across it rises ever so subtly towards her center. You'll see also that her Stern is more lightly formed than current plans, another issue I'm working to get corrected. I realize it's frustrating the pedantic pace we are going at but my sense is if you allow this process to evolve you'll be much happier with the more accurate model you'll get as a result.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
I tried to upload these in progressive order but the site has a mind of it's own. Oh well, they're all here anyway.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 2
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Jan/Feb 1992 "Seaways - Ships in Scale" has a very nice writeup on Medium Clipper 'Glory of the Seas' including a complete 1869 contemporary description of the vessel in specific details by Duncan MacLean, Boston Daily Atlas, article written by Michael J Mjelde. Final image is another rare picture of her Goddess "Athene" figurehead, probably one of the raciest ones so far. It's amazing to admire the carving work on her grecian gown, once you can get beyond admiring her other, uhm assets....
- 3,560 replies
-
- 3
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Rob, no need to apologize. After all, the picture literally identifies the ship in the image as "Glory of the Seas." I actually thought it had to be her, due to that. My wondering if Glory had a third skylight had me question Mike which led him to clear up the mistake.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Rob, I just asked Mike to clarify my observation. With a 238' WL waterline and 235' SK Stern to Knightheads, it would have to mean that Glory's Stem at this point was not only severely verticle but actually tilted backwards 3 feet! If that were the case, it would make sense that her prow would be angled upwards which would also affect her Bowsprit steeve too. What also surprised me was what precipitated this poor condition was an entire loss of her protective yellow metal cladding and poor repairs done after she ran aground on a sandbar. In fact in 1910 Glory actually began to sink after having been anchored from March 1909 until February 1910 when her sinking condition was discovered. That led to a mandated Dry Docking.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Rob, I sent you the entire pdf page and then got creative. Using my wife's phone I took a picture of the diagram on her device, then emailed it to mine and viola! here it is for everyone to observe.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Rob, As it's a pdf file, I will have to forward it to you in an email. Look for it.
-
Guys! I really hate to burst your bubble but Michael Mjelde emphatically confirmed to me that as much as this impressive Ship resembles her, she is NOT the "Glory of the Seas!" Notice the large rectangular skylight in front of this vessel's Mizzen Mast. Such a device was never on "Glory of the Seas."
-
Vladimir, Before a commercially available 'Flying Fish' model became available, this fascinating authentic tracing of Donald McKay's Extreme Clipper 'Flying Fish' was published in a Nautical Research Journal magazine article. Look closely at the lower right corner, besides identifying this craft as 'Flying Fish' it identifies that this tracing originates from a Museum in, of all places Sweden. It's documented that 'Flying Fish' had 4 1/2 Main Rail heights with a 16" Monkey Rail above that. These illustrations never include the Monkey Rail, nor do they illustrate the Naval Hoods which McKay's Clippers usually had too. I shared this because the Bow isn't a straight drop, it angles back in a graceful curve. Rob has calculated that Glory's Bow angles back at an 8 1/2' degree from 90 degrees verticle. Meanwhile, the commercially available 'Flying Fish' model, as impressive as it is, isn't accurate to the actual vessel in her Bow treatment. Her flying fish figurehead dangles precariously below in a way Donald McKay would never have done. The other image is of the "monster" Clipper 'Donald McKay'. British naval engineers actually took her lines when she was in Dry Dock, so these can be considered authentic. The pencil sketch of her masts, yards and sails are my conjectural work and can be disregarded. I've included this because this vessel is also considered a Medium Clipper. Look at her Bow and again there's no severely verticle prow. I'm beginning to suspect that due to her severe hogging (in 2 places towards her Foremast, there was 16' of distortion due to hogging) Glory's initial appearance has been marred.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Rob, Vladimir, Druxey and everyone else involved in this evolving project to accurately reconstruct Glory of the Seas". In his most recent email message to me this morning, Michael Mjelde finished his letter with this single standalone sentence, which I quote here verbatim: "I admire you for the work that you, Rob and others are displaying."
- 3,560 replies
-
- 3
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
You're welcome, Vladimir. If you're looking for the best resource to reconstruct Glory's Bow, take a real close look at the crystal clear image of her Bowsprit and Figurehead from Seattle 1911. From published sources, her Bowsprit is 24' outboard and 34" in diameter. We can count 7 iron bands around her lower Bowsprit with 1 additional surrounding both her Jibboom above and Bowsprit below. Mike has confirmed that 3' distances between bands was a standard practice. The ends outside band #1 and band #7, making those distances 18" each. Glory's figurehead aligns perfectly in between band #3 & #4. Her head is exactly 7 1/2' from band #1 and 9' from her Bow. The Naval Hood tip is exactly under band #3 making it 18" away from Athene's head and Rob has calculated that her Hood is double the length of her Figurehead, making the distance 15'. From viewing many images it appears like the Hood is about 5' at its base and curves gracefully to its tip. Interestingly enough, the width of the Hood is smaller than the curved arch on which Athene mounts. This arch ends up being smaller than the Hood above when it terminates below at the Bow. It's really all quite a fascinating use of artwork and space. Meanwhile I measured the top of her Naval Hood's angle of inclination at 20 degrees. McKay's 1st Extreme Clipper "Staghound" is documented as having had a steeve of 4 1/2" rise to each 1' run, which translates neatly to 20.60 degrees. We have come to an approximate height of 25' above her 22' Waterline and Rob has calculated her prow sweeps back 8 1/2 degrees from verticle as the great sweeping curve ends below her lower Bobstay mount. The Monkey Rail (which the Jibboom mounts inside) is most likely 18" and her Main Rail height is 5' making her Bulwarks 6 1/2'. It appears the damaged upper Quarterdeck Rail is about 1' above her Bulwarks. By using these figures it should be possible to reconstruct Glory's Bow quite accurately.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Vladimir, Trying to get the prow of Glory completely accurate will involve some creative sleuthing. From my observations of her rather sharp Bow as can be seen in these images of her beached at Esquimalt and the close up of her Figurehead in 1900, it looks like her sharp Bow expands to a much fuller model midway between where her quarterdeck ends and the Foremast. To get an idea as to how sharp Glory was forward look at the last image, just around her lower right leg can be seen the word "Glory" of her Starboard sign board. If you were to visually carry that Starboard curve, almost a straight line, to its logical position opposite her Port counterpart, it clearly is a pointed entrance.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 2
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Rob, I too am impressed at the sheer humility of Michael Mjelde as we literally dissect work that has been published and in circulation since 1970. I think it gives me even more respect for Mike (the name he wrote me that he's s most comfortable with) in his willingness to actively collaborate with us in order to more accurately reconstruct Glory's true appearance. As for our way forward. Just like Donald McKay was a naval engineer, my feeling is by adhering as closely as possible to a scientifically valid approach to recreating Glory's dimensions, we too should be able to capture her true beauty.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 2
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Rob, thanks for the compliment. As we gradually nail down all the specifics of McKay's last Clipper with the generous help of Michael Mjelde foremost authority on "Glory of the Seas" I personally feel like we will finally have the most exhaustively researched recreation of a McKay Clipper in history. This is getting very exciting.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Rob, it's a well known fact that all of McKay's vessels were described as not being duplicates of each other. However, his building and construction techniques remained the same. That's probably why I struggle so much with a 22.30 Bowsprit steeve. It's not a workable number in inches to feet. To get that requires an odd 4.91 inches to 12 inches. None of the other McKay ships have anything like that. Meanwhile, if (again that's if) Glory's resting "on an even keel" after her Dry Dock repairs, as she seems to be in the lower photo on page 227 and the fresh, sharp new extreme close up side image, than her Bowsprit steeve is most likely 20.60 degrees, or 4 1/2 inches to the foot. I've just sent the same email to Mike too to get his impressions.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Rob, a downside to MacLean's "airy fairy" language is that while he does give a distinctive impression of what he's seen, it's long on praise and woefully short on details we're searching for. That being said, by researching other vessels McKay built, some more specifics come to light. That's why I've gone back to "Staghound" and other Clippers to fill in the blanks as best as I can. Case in point, I believe MacLean gave far more specifics to "Staghound" since she was an entirely new model and the largest merchant vessel in the world. While her sheer was 2 1/2 feet, her Bow was specifically described as being 5 feet higher than her Stern. We have to "guesstimate " Stern height, gradually bring it down 2 1/2' and then it's 5' higher at the Bow. If we assign a modest 3' height to her Stern, that puts "Staghound's Bow a minimum of 8'. While it's more challenging to do this with "Glory of the Seas" I believe we can get very close by a similar process. In this case, my choice of scenes is the 1877 San Francisco dock image. Her graceful sheer is obvious and distinctive. I estimate her Stern to be about 3' higher than the lowest portion of her Hull at the center of the Main Shrouds. Another complication Michael Mjelde explained to me is the alternate approach used to correct the hogging of Glory's keel. Instead of the more complex 'sanding & settling' method employed by the US Navy to restore "Old Ironsides" those who repaired Glory simply added shims to the uneven sections of her Hull in order to even out her keel. As I understand that method, in essence they were permanently altering her Hull to accomodate the flexing of her keel. I have to admit having an issue with the 22.30 degree steeve. My basis is that historically not one of McKay's other Clipper Ships had a documented steeve of such a high angle of inclination. Actually "Staghound" again had a documented steeve of 4 1/2" to 1', 20.60 degrees. Every other vessel I've found had a more modest steeve of 4" to 1' 18.40 degrees. Meanwhile a steeve of 22.30 degrees requires 4.91" to 1' which just doesn't match anything else McKay has done.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
A few years ago, when it was still available online as a pdf file, I saved a copy of the hogging diagram of Glory done by a naval engineer; probably the same report Mike's referring to. From what I remember of it, most of the hogging was towards the rear third of the ship. If anything the Bow was more severely verticle which would also affect Bowsprit steeve. That brings us back to relying on published descriptions and exact dimensions at the time of her launch, which fortunately are quite detailed. According to the article's writer, most likely the same Duncan MacLean of the Boston Daily Atlas. "Her bow has a bold, dashy rake" He adds that Glory had "a seven foot sheer which is graduated her whole length with sufficient spring towards the ends to lend an air of lightness and buoyancy to her general outline." In a more detailed description of McKay's Extreme Clipper "Staghound" Duncan MacLean describes that her Bow was 5 feet higher than her Stern. Considering that Glory was specifically designed to traverse some of the most challenging seas on the planet, rounding Cape Horn where two great opposing ocean currents collide, Atlantic and Pacific, it makes sense that Glory's Hull would have a somewhat higher Bow to take on those seas. About the best option I can see is to use Glory's figurehead as a measuring device and estimate as closely as possible her height at her Bow. The closest Hull estimate I can make is at her Starboard loading dock. Getting a closer look from the clearest image so far in the Peabody "Poseidon" book, I now count 10 strakes from her waterline to the bottom of the docking port, 4 strakes make up the side and 7 more to get to lower main molding. That's 21 strakes in total, each being 6 1/2" that's just about 12'. Closest observation of the height to the Monkey rail molding is 6 1/2 feet (comparing height of her figurehead to upper molding). That brings her height to about 18 1/2' or so above her waterline at the Docking Port. Add in 22' waterline to keel and she's 40 1/2' at this point. Her lowest point of sheer is around the center of her Main shrouds, my best observation from her 1900s San Francisco Dock image. Michael Mjelde published the Main Mast dimension as 40' in his cross-section. Adding 7' to that brings an estimated Bow height of 25'.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Rob, to my knowledge, the only method to correct hogging in wooden ships is to place them in Dry Dock, lay the keel on wooden piers full of sand and once the dock is drained completely, gradually drain sand out of the piers to allow weight of the ship to naturally straighten out the keel. Mike told to me in an email that she had a 16" inch hog, according to dry docking records which was corrected when she was repaired and repainted weeks earlier. My suspicion that this was the Dry Dock location is based mainly on those long skinny logs floating by her Starboard side in the lower picture on page 227. I can find no other logical explanation for those to be there. I have no confirmation of that.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Here's page 227 of Michael Mjelde's first publication "Glory of the Seas." As he said, all 3 scenes are indeed of the same location. A huge and quite distinctive "Seattle Grain Co (?)" storage shed, which has identical 15 pane oblong windows, separated by a small divider in the upper roof level can be seen on the Port side of Glory in all three images. There's also a consistent run of wooden piers below which line what could be a Dry Dock in each picture. That would explain all the long skinny logs floating along her Starboard side. I've sent an email to Mike to see if he can verify my potential Dry Dock conclusion. I'll let you know what his reply is.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 3
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Rob and everyone else, I have to set the record straight. The latest razor sharp close up of Glory's bow and figurehead Mike so generously shared with me, was taken from the adjacent pier to the north not as I erroneously remembered "from across the bay." My apologies for the mistake.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Rob, this was sent to me by Michael Mjelde in my morning email. He also said it was taken from across the bay as described on page 227 of his first publication "Glory of the Seas." I haven't had a chance to read that page yet.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Vladimir, My apologies if I confused you. The background is painted black, like the rest of Glory's upper topsides were. Carvings and moldings were gold leafed.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 2
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
-
Vladimir, that's beautiful work. Now imagine that Black background being highlighted by 24 karat gold leaf. It must have been something to see.
- 3,560 replies
-
- 2
-
-
- clipper
- hull model
- (and 2 more)
Our Emblem ®
