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ClipperFan

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  1. ClipperFan
    Arina, I sent an email to your dad and will let you know his reply. Thanks again for both of your generosity!
  2. ClipperFan
  3. ClipperFan
    TheAuthorsDaughter Arina please thank your dad for me, on his gracious willingness to share his contact info with us. FYI since to me at least this is the best broadside view of her intact Hull, today I emailed the research team at Puget Sound Maritime Hstorical Society to get specifics on how to secure a better copy of "Glory of the Seas" at San Pedro, 1907, PSMHS No 1028-5
  4. ClipperFan
    Rob, Great mathematical work! So it appears that starting just below the 2nd Bobstay Chain, Glory's Bow is almost a straight time, with just the most imperceptible curve forward, down to her keel at -7 degrees of vertical. It should be possible to accurately calculate length of her Naval Hoods from her Bow, based on the fact we know her Goddess Figurehead is 90" using angle of inclination. By carefully reconstructing these dimensions, it should be possible to confidently rebuild her dimensions, leading to a very accurate Hull.
  5. ClipperFan
  6. ClipperFan
    Rob, Thanks for the excerpt of Michael Mjelde's email to you. It's amazing, he started researching Glory about 64 years ago! That's a lifetime of dedication to this unique vessel. Just imagine the documents that must be in his posession. Maybe someday he'll open a museum of his own. He mentioned that Ron Haug has done work on other McKay Clippers. Since Ron's from Down Under, an educated guess would be those vessels which served Oz "Lightning" "James Baines" "Champion of the Seas" and "Donald McKay." Possibly also "City of Adelaide" currently under restoration and "Red Jacket" which also brought Immigrants to Australia. It would be immensely enjoyable to see Ron's work on other Clippers but for now, I'm going to keep focused on getting "Glory of the Seas" right, once and for all. While Mr Mjelde is absolutely right that artist's works are subjective, to the degree we can compensate for perspective distortion, photographic evidence is more reliable. I agree too Rob, that her gunwales are much higher than 6 1/2' based on interior Main Deck level photo. Adding in 3 moldings 6" each brings that height to 8'. 6" molding below 5' Main deck wall 6" molding above, 18" Monkey Rail with 6" molding on top. I cropped the Alaskan Inlet image, brightened it up a little to reveal Glory's details and compared it to original. Then to give better comparison to the San Pedro shot, the last image is reversed. Prow and Stern are more clearly visible but she's stern down making her Bow angle appear more verticle. Adjusting her position to level would correct this. Additional factory structures unfortunately mar her original graceful sheer.
  7. ClipperFan
    Rob, Thanks for the excerpt of Michael Mjelde's email to you. It's amazing, he started researching Glory about 64 years ago! That's a lifetime of dedication to this unique vessel. Just imagine the documents that must be in his posession. Maybe someday he'll open a museum of his own. He mentioned that Ron Haug has done work on other McKay Clippers. Since Ron's from Down Under, an educated guess would be those vessels which served Oz "Lightning" "James Baines" "Champion of the Seas" and "Donald McKay." Possibly also "City of Adelaide" currently under restoration and "Red Jacket" which also brought Immigrants to Australia. It would be immensely enjoyable to see Ron's work on other Clippers but for now, I'm going to keep focused on getting "Glory of the Seas" right, once and for all. While Mr Mjelde is absolutely right that artist's works are subjective, to the degree we can compensate for perspective distortion, photographic evidence is more reliable. I agree too Rob, that her gunwales are much higher than 6 1/2' based on interior Main Deck level photo. Adding in 3 moldings 6" each brings that height to 8'. 6" molding below 5' Main deck wall 6" molding above, 18" Monkey Rail with 6" molding on top.
  8. ClipperFan
    "Conquerors of Cape Horn, Clippers Glory of the Seas with Young America in Background. 1879" Carl G Evers, American Artist One of my favorite depictions of Glory, very atmospheric showing both vessels fully laden plowing through heavy seas.
  9. ClipperFan
    "Glory of the Seas off Fort Mason" & "Glory of the Seas off the Farralon Islands, 1912" both by American Artist William A Coulter It's clearly apparent from the paintings of both contemporary artist who were able to view this Clipper Ship in person that she had a very deep Hull, much deeper than later Maine built deepwater "Down Easters." "The American Clipper Glory of the Seas" Henry Scott, British Artist
  10. ClipperFan
    "Glory of the Seas off Fort Mason" & "Glory of the Seas off the Farralon Islands, 1912" both by American Artist William A Coulter It's clearly apparent from the paintings of both contemporary artist who were able to view this Clipper Ship in person that she had a very deep Hull, much deeper than later Maine built deepwater "Down Easters."
  11. ClipperFan
    The American Clipper "Glory of the Seas" off of the South Stack, Anglessey" British Artist Charles J Waldron Originally in posession of one of the owners of the Clipper Ship. For accuracy, not one of my favorites, ironically due to the Bow being too elongated, Bowsprit steeve to low. She's depicted as originally launched, before her Wheelhouse was lenghtened.
  12. ClipperFan
    TheAuthorsDaughter Arina, it occured to me that the sole image of Glory's Starboard Broadside on level viewpoint "Glory of the Seas at San Pedro dock 1907" is from 'Tall Ships on Puget Sound' published Nov 7, 2007. I made a copy of the page from the book I bought years ago and shared in on this site for personal research only, not to make a profit. What I don't know is this. Since your dad is a published author, is it a copyright infringement to share this with our friend in Australia? If so, there are lots of copies of this book available for roughly $5.00. One could be bought and sent to him.
  13. ClipperFan
    What is it with Donald McKay and fires anyway? His first Extreme Clipper "Staghound" burnt to the waterline, the same fate happened to two of the four James Baines Australian line Clippers "Lightning" and his namesake "James Baines." There was the horrific fiery loss of "Ocean Monarch" a magnificent Packet Ship. Poor "Great Republic" herself didn't ignite but sparks from a nearby bakery lit her up. She burned to the waterline and finally was scuttled to extinguish the flames. Although famous Captain NB Palmer salvaged her, due to intense fire damage, she was relaunched basically as a razee, with her 4th deck entirely removed and her once impressive rig greatly reduced in size. In Richard McKay's book, there's a tale of the tragic fate of almost all of Donald McKay's Builder's models. It's related, I think by his son who submitted his authentic half Hull of "Staghound" to a Boston Maritime Museum. He states that it was personally constructed using precise dimensions, taken from loft lines, as the vessel was being built. Apparently Donald used his priceless models as raw fuel kindling to stay warm during the cold winters in rural Massachusetts. All lost to fire. Now we learn that even historic notes themselves have also perished in.... fire, what else?
  14. ClipperFan
    druxey Now we're talking scientific precision! I took a compass to the image on my phone and it appears to be a 5 degree incline backwards. Also it does appear that while below the waterline, she appears arrow straight, it's not exactly, as the edge curves forward ever so minutely. I've also read that Glory's Hull was sheathed with yellow metal up to 22'. Knowing that fact, we can measure her height above the waterline. My phone is too small to accurately calculate this but visually it appears that her dimensions above the waterline are slightly more than below. My estimate from Keel to Monkeyrail is close to 50'. Her measurements at Starboard loading port can be calculated by counting strakes, which have been published as being 6 1/2" each. Unless anybody else has a more accurate count, this is the number found from a clear enough image of Glory on the ways: waterline to bottom of port 9 strakes, 58 1/2", side of port 4 strakes, 26" ; port to main deck lower molding 7 strakes, 45 1/2" total= 130" or 10.83' probably 11'. main deck rail height is 5', monkey rail above that is 18", 1 1/2'. I don't know if three 6" moldings (lower main, upper main and monkey rail) add to height or not, excluding them she's 17 1/2' above waterline. Counting depth for moldings she's 19'. Combined with a 22' waterline below that comes to either 39 1/2' or 41' at her Starboard loading dock.
  15. ClipperFan
    It's possible this scene shows her with royals fiddled, either because the weather is calm and quiet or because she's just beginning her long tow from Washington to Alaska and they haven't been lowered yet. Obviously scenes of Glory before that Mizzen monstrosity were earlier in her career. Her conversion to become a floating Salmon canning factory extended her years of service. While it was an innovative first, sadly it led to her ultimate doom. When Boston merchants were considering the costs to transform her back to McKay's original Clipper Ship configuration, it was added expense to remove all of the factory processing modifications that made them conclude it was too expensive to save her.....
  16. ClipperFan
    I hated to see that mizzen helm house, it disfigured the masts and yards so poorly. It signifies to me how much the owners disrespected her Clipper Ship lineage. From a coldly practical, functional viewpoint, I'm sure it was a benefit to the helmsman but God what an awful sight!
  17. ClipperFan
    Rob, What a great catch on the arc of the Cutwater being a section of a circle! I always sensed it was something like that but just couldn't quite see it so clearly until you highlighted it just now. It's also clear that her prow below the waterline isn't verticle but more of a slight incline back. It should be possible to extrapolate that precise degree on a compass setting. Any idea what that is? In his day, Donald McKay was reverently referred to as a Marine Mechanic by Duncan McLean of the Boston Daily Atlas. All of his vessels were scientifically laid out according to the latest hydrodynamic principles available and Donald was famous as an innovator. For example, British Ship builders were so uncomfortable with the radical Bow of the "Lightning" that they tacked on additional cladding to fix what they considered to be a flaw in his design! This obviously infuriated Mr. McKay. Fortunately, their awkward addition couldn't last long, as waves washed it all off. "Lightning" then proceeded to shatter records on her journeys from England to Australia. She became famous as one of the fastest vessels on that route. As for our desire to complete this project correctly, after a decades long "relentless pursuit of perfection" I know we all can afford to be patient. However, there's Mr. Mjelde's looming deadline to consider. From your meeting that sounds like it's coming up fairly soon. Didn't you say that the manuscript for his third publication is already complete? So, I'm going to redouble my efforts to get this done at the full scale we originally discussed. Meanwhile, I don't suppose Mr. Mjelde or Arina TheAuthorsDaughter gave you any idea when the final publishing deadline for his third book would be? My other concern is not wanting to insult Ron Haug's work. But if it comes to a choice between that and seeing yet another inaccurate lines plan, what else do you think we should do? Do you think there's enough time to collaborate with Ron, to show him our research? I've got to believe that everyone wants to be faithful to Mr. McKay's genuine article. To all of us who love Donald's Clipper Ships, even Medium Clippers, it's important to get it right. My sense is, just like the "Great Republic" was a pioneer of the great four masted Barks which followed years later, "Glory of the Seas" wasn't quite a 'Down Easter' but was a definite precursor to them. We have to continue to make as strong as possible a case in defense of Donald McKay's unique creation. Don't we owe it to his memory? After all this time, it would be a shame to see yet another flawed lines plan published, when there now appears to be plenty of visible evidence to contradict it.
  18. ClipperFan
    Rob, Here's a more clear pic from Michael Mjelde's first book. Both Bow and Stern are consistent with other images. I also found the Clipper "Lightning" lines, drafted by Donald McKay himself. This is from the North Star Books publication.
  19. ClipperFan
    Rob, I almost forgot, you're welcome. I love finding these really neat publications. Often, especially in the 50s & 60s books geared towards younger audiences have some surprisingly rare photos, paintings and ship's blueprints. I don't know if you've ever heard of this but I just ordered it. "Around in the Glory: Chronicle of the 42nd Voyage of 'Glory of the Seas' around Cape Horn" by the ship's captain Daniel McLaughlin. Description says it's illustrated. If it contains any new images, I will certainly share them.
  20. ClipperFan
    druxey The bow below the waterline is straight until the last 3 yellow metal plates, then it curves just so slightly before the turn towards the keel bottom. The larger point I was making is that the Bow below the waterline isn't vertical.
  21. ClipperFan
    Rob, Your plumb lines are perfect. Now observe the thin wedge shape that's created by the lines between the anchor line, the Cutwater and Glory's long Hull below the waterline. It's not verticle but slopes slightly backwards. I don't know yet how to draw lines on images, so I edit them instead. I've cropped Walters oil, Glory's broadside (which to me is the most accurate Hull shape to date, since it's fairly level with the observation line) and my Hull reconstruction. From what I see, the photo shows the most pronounced prow. Comparing all of these images, all 3 Hulls look consistent and to me at least the sole one that doesn't, is the new proposed Hull.
  22. ClipperFan
    "Donald McKay & the Clipper Ships" by Mary Ellen Chase - North Star Books 1959 This is a children's book. Amazingly, an exceedingly rare blueprint of McKay's Clipper "Lightning" as well as the sole right side image of Glory's Greek Goddess Figurehead and Glory on the Ways are all reproduced inside. Google it & this particular example is currently available for $19.00.
  23. ClipperFan
    Rob, Thanks for your patience with my dogged determination to pursue accuracy at all costs. It's just these Hull lines don't, for lack of a better word.... feel right. I realize that's totally subjective but for the past decade, I've been working on getting a scientifically accurate representation, based on all available photographic evidence. Actually I was encouraged to see the San Pedro image since the poorly reproduced image of my sketch was done several years before it was published. Vladimir, If you were to use flesh tones to paint her exposed areas, you would be amazed to see how skimply clad she really is. Erotic is an accurate term, yet somehow she is alluring and innocently beautiful at the same time. The only right side image is from a very affordable children's book which also has the only full lines of McKay's fabled Clipper "Lightning." I'll find a copy of the cover and share it.
  24. ClipperFan
    Michael Mjelde deserves our universal gratitude and appreciation for his incredible personalization of Donald McKay's longest lived vessel "Glory of the Seas." Decades later, I am still fired up by this incredible vessel. In port, contemporaries described her as an impressive Clipper of enormous beauty. My total goal, as I'm sure Rob and Mr Mjelde has too, is to see the genuine form of McKay's last Clipper be realised as precisely as possible. "Perspective distortion" is the devil we're dealing with, as it's damnably difficult to get accurate proportions but not impossible. Using her Port anchor and Bobstay as true verticle plumblines, gravity is pulling both free standing objects directly down, it's possible to estimate other angles. Glory's on an inclined plane in order to launch her when ready. Drawing an extended line from the bottom of her keel where it intersects with a verticle plumbline from her anchor, reveals that her waterline below isn't verticle but has an ever slight incline backwards. Knowing her figurehead is 90" from head to toe, it's obvious she projects at least 15' from her Cutwater since the carved arch she resides on is slightly longer than her. The Cutwater curves gracefully almost to the waterline where is straightens out. Another factor to remember is that Glory was specifically designed to batter her way around Cape Horn through some of the toughest seas on the planet. Looking at observable samples of McKay's vessels, there is a similarity of designs which supports a more aggressive prow. To support my position about a more "extreme prow" I've reversed Walters' painting followed it with the broadside of the actual Ship in Port. It's amazing how much the two hulls match in profile. If you look at the close up detail of Glory in port and compare her photographic image to the proposed new Bow, they just don't match. Run a verticle line up from her prow where she's practically straight and look at the clear wedge shape that emerges; compare the same verticle line in the new Bow, those shapes will not match. Finally, a much smaller, lighter stern is visible in both Walters painting and broadside photo. Again, they are remarkably similar. Compare them to the proposed new stern and they just don't match either. It makes me wonder, of all the many images Ron Haug has, does he even have the broadside from San Pedro? It's my burning passion, as I'm sure is Mr MJelde's, Mr Haug's, Rob's and everyone else on this forum to see Donald McKay's wonderful creation realized as accurately as possible. Please, repectfully let's be sure we get it right this time.
  25. ClipperFan
    Here are the best images I have of Glory's Goddess "Athene" Figurehead. The first is from a Magazine article about the Shipcarver's work. On the bottom it states her height as being 90". Second is from Time-Life which depicts her floating against a blue background. Third is a small image from a little pamphlet, possibly about India House itself. Fourth is from a fascinating children's book which has the sole image I've found which depicts Glory's figurehead from the right side. Look closely and you can see what was probably original gold trim when she was first launched. These are the sources I've been relying on in my efforts to capture her true beauty.

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