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Jaager got a reaction from Obormotov in Harold Hahn method
His presentation in the NRJ is reprinted in:
Ship Modeler's Shop Notes, Vol. I
$3500 -
Jaager got a reaction from Obormotov in Harold Hahn method
Thomas,
Navy Board is a particular style of framing, It is not what you built. It is the framing with spaces in line with the timbers and in alternating frames depending on altitude above the keel. Almost no one builds using this style. It was dissected and explained in early issues of Model Shipwright and by Robert Bruckshaw -there is a PDF of his out there somewhere. ( Later, there was of course NAVY BOARD SHIP MODELS by John Franklin. ) I explored using it the frame St.Philippe. The method requires that the floor and F1 be much longer than the actual timbers would have been. The round up is so much that a wide plank is needed - worse than Hahn. The very significant waste is not acceptable to me. The original models had their frames sawn out of large thin boards. It must have been nice to have Pear and Boxwood stock that was that large. My guess is that it came from luxury carriage makers.
I did my first framing using Black Walnut also. I also would not use it again. The pores are just not right. I built it in the attic of a poorly AC house during a Kentucky Summer. The fingers were continuously stained purple. It is a beautiful wood to be sure, but it not suited to our needs.
Your hull looks spectacular. Since the term has no exact meaning, you might as well call it Admiralty style. Are you going to use full planking above the wale?
Personally, I enjoy the curves of open framing below the wale. I also think the framing above the wale is too ugly to show. The French ships are not as ugly, because they did not narrow the top timber widths very much if at all. The narrowing and jogging of RN ship top timbers have all the visual appeal of showing the 2x4 framing of a house.
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Jaager got a reaction from Obormotov in Harold Hahn method
I guess that what I am sort of suggesting is that it may prove helpful if
:
Admiralty style had a definitive and commonly agreed upon meaning.
The sub section of POF where the hidden internal parts - hooks, riders, knees, temporary rooms, magazines etc. are modeled had a specific name.
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Jaager got a reaction from Obormotov in Harold Hahn method
Thomas,
First, now ANCRE is providing plans with an exposition of the frames at 1:48 and 1:72 of the Sane 74.
At first when I looked at your photo, I was guessing that your model was a click larger than 1:48 - since your hull is larger than my framed hull of Commerce de Marseille - then I remembered that I build at 1:60 and that yours is about twice the 3D size - so 1:48? Fully masted and in a case - it will be interesting in how much habitat volume it occupies.
We seem to have a definition confusion here. There is no definitive meaning for what is meant by Admiralty.
I used to think it referred to POF - open frame - 17th century style framing. But now I use Navy Board framing to define that style.
Then - from use here on the forum - I thought it meant a POF, open frame with no masts or short stubs for them.
With you calling your hull Admiralty, well - your framing looks to be all bends with ~20% space, which would match how these 74 were actually built. But you intend to fully mast it?
I cannot recall a definitive name for the current style of leaving the decks mostly open and most of the usually hidden guts present and most of the upper works outside and inside planking left off. What was once a virtuoso exercise in fully following a monograph inside as well as outside seems to have become a sort of standard. Why that is, has me banging my head to get the water out of my ears. I wonder if the additional complexity of adding more to a POF than what would be seen if it was a fully planked above the wale and decked model of a vessel as it actually sailed might frighten off some who would otherwise build POF?
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Jaager got a reaction from Obormotov in Harold Hahn method
I built Kate Cory using the method. The scantlings are a minor detail.
Davis used all bends and room= space because that was how large wooden hulls from around 1900 were built and that was where he came from. It had nothing to do with how wooden hulls were framed before
iron and steel took over and the old ways were lost. The last 50 years has been a long and difficult rediscovery of the older methods - at least as it applies to ship modeling.
Hahn stood on Davis' shoulders, but he was focused on a narrow slice of time in his subjects to model. For the ships in his era of interest =If the station intervals are combined with the then current published scantlings - there is very little space between the floors and F1 timbers. If a hull is framed as built, it would be a solid wall of timber with 1"-2" air gaps between them. A display of this sort of framing would not be visually interesting and to my eye sort of ugly and pointless. When compared to early Navy Board style framing the esthetic differences are stark. Hahn solved this by using Davis style framing - all bends and room= space. It is just wrong for the period and the over large spaces look like poor dental hygiene. But that is just my opinion and it counts for nothing.
My point is that the nature of the frame timbers and the spaces is independent of Hahn's upside down method. The framing came be anything. I will point out that singleton frames, which rely solely on end grain to end grain bonds are a nightmare as opposed to a bend which is really strong.
Now with the Hahn method you are going to waste a lot of expensive wood. You willing to spot that. If you PVA bond deadwood at the keel between every frame, the hull will be stronger. If you intend to plank over everything from the main wale on up, you can PVA bond wood where the space would be and it will be really strong. If you use a temporary and easily reversible adhesive, wood can be used to fill the spaces. This makes the hull a solid and it self protects against aggressive shaping and faring - until the space fillers are removed.
Take a look at my Renommee build for an alternative way of frame assembly. It is about as efficient in wood as it gets. Needs no baseboard or any other sort of support. Is about 10 times faster to loft if you must do that. I did not have open framing on Renommee because my purpose with it was to show an alternative to the awful looking POB with all all filling between the molds. You have to use your imagination to see how spaces would be included. If and when I post my Centurion log, open framing will be shown as well as a more complete explanation of the lofting method used.
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Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Which one is the best ropewalk machine?
The max length of a single fiber is the length of the stem of the flax plant that it came from.
For cotton, it is much much shorter. But a cotton fiber is much much thinner than a flax fiber. It is so much smaller than the combed flax fibers - that after being twisted into yarn and then the yarn twisted into thread - is still finer than linen yarn. Well most of what we can find now is. But cotton does not usually last a human lifetime. For its job of protecting a seed, it does not need to last all that long.
About some of the other natural fibers could be investigated:
I do not know what the negative factors are with wool. It is never mentioned as far as I can remember. It is maybe more labile? Maybe too thick? Is it kinked, or spiral?
Silk is short lived. Even a hint of chlorine will disintegrate the beta sheet structure. Thinking of it - the cocoon that is its job only needs to last for a short time and it does not need to hold anything up. It mostly needs lateral strength as a shield - not longitudinal strength. The beta sheet has more lateral flex than an alpha helix?
If I remember correctly - both wool and silk are proteins? Animals do not synthesize cellulose? Animals polymerize proteins and plants polymerize sugars?
Hemp - I have never encountered hemp yarn. I suspect that the fibers could be 6-8 times longer than flax fibers. The plants are about that much different in height. Getting the fibers isolated, oriented, and processed may be more work than it is worth. I wonder if its lignin is more resistant to being fermented, or rotted than the lignin glue in flax?
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Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Hull painting etc.
I am going to guess out loud as to what those with experience are going to suggest:
Bowsprit: I can see no way that the heel of the spar could securely rest on the deck. Cutting the long acute angle would be difficult, but mainly the forces on it would drive it aft along the deck.
It probably would butt against a substantial vertical timber below the deck beams or a horizontal timber that was fixed to two vertical timbers. There would have to be caulking at the decking to avoid having the space under the forecastle be a near constant shower room.
Red stripe - at first i thought that the red should be first. Then, I suspect that white over color would be more difficult than color over white, so I see white first. Mask and paint red. Then mask and paint green. If you were starting from scratch.
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Jaager got a reaction from modeller_masa in Which one is the best ropewalk machine?
The max length of a single fiber is the length of the stem of the flax plant that it came from.
For cotton, it is much much shorter. But a cotton fiber is much much thinner than a flax fiber. It is so much smaller than the combed flax fibers - that after being twisted into yarn and then the yarn twisted into thread - is still finer than linen yarn. Well most of what we can find now is. But cotton does not usually last a human lifetime. For its job of protecting a seed, it does not need to last all that long.
About some of the other natural fibers could be investigated:
I do not know what the negative factors are with wool. It is never mentioned as far as I can remember. It is maybe more labile? Maybe too thick? Is it kinked, or spiral?
Silk is short lived. Even a hint of chlorine will disintegrate the beta sheet structure. Thinking of it - the cocoon that is its job only needs to last for a short time and it does not need to hold anything up. It mostly needs lateral strength as a shield - not longitudinal strength. The beta sheet has more lateral flex than an alpha helix?
If I remember correctly - both wool and silk are proteins? Animals do not synthesize cellulose? Animals polymerize proteins and plants polymerize sugars?
Hemp - I have never encountered hemp yarn. I suspect that the fibers could be 6-8 times longer than flax fibers. The plants are about that much different in height. Getting the fibers isolated, oriented, and processed may be more work than it is worth. I wonder if its lignin is more resistant to being fermented, or rotted than the lignin glue in flax?
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Jaager got a reaction from Gregory in Which one is the best ropewalk machine?
Just to kabitz about personal philosophy:
Since you are not using linen, I think that any starting material that you can source will be a thread.
The prototype rope was turned up using a single thread for each of the 3 or 4 lines being twisted
At scale, using more than one will not produce something that looks like scale rope. It will be twine - sorta ugly.
Over a short range, a variety of diameters can be had by using thicker starting thread.
Linen comes as (picking a number to make it easier to write - I have 10 Lea to 62 Lea so I could pick any number.) 40 and 40/2 . The 40 is one 40 Lea yarn. The 40/2 is two 40 Lea yarns twisted together. The twist is tight enough to make it look like a single line.
Your photo #2 pair would need to be twist into a single before it is strung like that.
Your photo #3 trios would need to be actual 3 strand scale rope before you strung it.
Your photo #4 quartets would need to be 4 strand scale rope as starting material .
The twist of the starting material determines the rotation for the rope being made. Use the wrong rotation and the starting material unravels.
I have no suggestion for a machine. I wanted a mile long stock, so I bought a Byrnes rope walk. I have not (well back when I was practicing) figured out the correct angles to get the scale twist of an actual rope. It also generates forces that break the linen yarns that are really fine - usually where a stem inclusion gets past the comb during its twist up. The Baltic stuff is even less well combed.
Anything synthetic is against my personal rules, but my rules are only for me.
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Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Which one is the best ropewalk machine?
Just to kabitz about personal philosophy:
Since you are not using linen, I think that any starting material that you can source will be a thread.
The prototype rope was turned up using a single thread for each of the 3 or 4 lines being twisted
At scale, using more than one will not produce something that looks like scale rope. It will be twine - sorta ugly.
Over a short range, a variety of diameters can be had by using thicker starting thread.
Linen comes as (picking a number to make it easier to write - I have 10 Lea to 62 Lea so I could pick any number.) 40 and 40/2 . The 40 is one 40 Lea yarn. The 40/2 is two 40 Lea yarns twisted together. The twist is tight enough to make it look like a single line.
Your photo #2 pair would need to be twist into a single before it is strung like that.
Your photo #3 trios would need to be actual 3 strand scale rope before you strung it.
Your photo #4 quartets would need to be 4 strand scale rope as starting material .
The twist of the starting material determines the rotation for the rope being made. Use the wrong rotation and the starting material unravels.
I have no suggestion for a machine. I wanted a mile long stock, so I bought a Byrnes rope walk. I have not (well back when I was practicing) figured out the correct angles to get the scale twist of an actual rope. It also generates forces that break the linen yarns that are really fine - usually where a stem inclusion gets past the comb during its twist up. The Baltic stuff is even less well combed.
Anything synthetic is against my personal rules, but my rules are only for me.
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Jaager got a reaction from dvm27 in Which one is the best ropewalk machine?
Just to kabitz about personal philosophy:
Since you are not using linen, I think that any starting material that you can source will be a thread.
The prototype rope was turned up using a single thread for each of the 3 or 4 lines being twisted
At scale, using more than one will not produce something that looks like scale rope. It will be twine - sorta ugly.
Over a short range, a variety of diameters can be had by using thicker starting thread.
Linen comes as (picking a number to make it easier to write - I have 10 Lea to 62 Lea so I could pick any number.) 40 and 40/2 . The 40 is one 40 Lea yarn. The 40/2 is two 40 Lea yarns twisted together. The twist is tight enough to make it look like a single line.
Your photo #2 pair would need to be twist into a single before it is strung like that.
Your photo #3 trios would need to be actual 3 strand scale rope before you strung it.
Your photo #4 quartets would need to be 4 strand scale rope as starting material .
The twist of the starting material determines the rotation for the rope being made. Use the wrong rotation and the starting material unravels.
I have no suggestion for a machine. I wanted a mile long stock, so I bought a Byrnes rope walk. I have not (well back when I was practicing) figured out the correct angles to get the scale twist of an actual rope. It also generates forces that break the linen yarns that are really fine - usually where a stem inclusion gets past the comb during its twist up. The Baltic stuff is even less well combed.
Anything synthetic is against my personal rules, but my rules are only for me.
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Jaager got a reaction from modeller_masa in Which one is the best ropewalk machine?
Just to kabitz about personal philosophy:
Since you are not using linen, I think that any starting material that you can source will be a thread.
The prototype rope was turned up using a single thread for each of the 3 or 4 lines being twisted
At scale, using more than one will not produce something that looks like scale rope. It will be twine - sorta ugly.
Over a short range, a variety of diameters can be had by using thicker starting thread.
Linen comes as (picking a number to make it easier to write - I have 10 Lea to 62 Lea so I could pick any number.) 40 and 40/2 . The 40 is one 40 Lea yarn. The 40/2 is two 40 Lea yarns twisted together. The twist is tight enough to make it look like a single line.
Your photo #2 pair would need to be twist into a single before it is strung like that.
Your photo #3 trios would need to be actual 3 strand scale rope before you strung it.
Your photo #4 quartets would need to be 4 strand scale rope as starting material .
The twist of the starting material determines the rotation for the rope being made. Use the wrong rotation and the starting material unravels.
I have no suggestion for a machine. I wanted a mile long stock, so I bought a Byrnes rope walk. I have not (well back when I was practicing) figured out the correct angles to get the scale twist of an actual rope. It also generates forces that break the linen yarns that are really fine - usually where a stem inclusion gets past the comb during its twist up. The Baltic stuff is even less well combed.
Anything synthetic is against my personal rules, but my rules are only for me.
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Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Hull painting etc.
I am going to guess out loud as to what those with experience are going to suggest:
Bowsprit: I can see no way that the heel of the spar could securely rest on the deck. Cutting the long acute angle would be difficult, but mainly the forces on it would drive it aft along the deck.
It probably would butt against a substantial vertical timber below the deck beams or a horizontal timber that was fixed to two vertical timbers. There would have to be caulking at the decking to avoid having the space under the forecastle be a near constant shower room.
Red stripe - at first i thought that the red should be first. Then, I suspect that white over color would be more difficult than color over white, so I see white first. Mask and paint red. Then mask and paint green. If you were starting from scratch.
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Jaager got a reaction from Canute in How to "unstick" this chuck from the mill spindle?
Would cold cause the components to contract?
I have a vague memory of an aerosol something that acted like liquid Nitrogen.
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Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in How to "unstick" this chuck from the mill spindle?
Would cold cause the components to contract?
I have a vague memory of an aerosol something that acted like liquid Nitrogen.
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Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Does cherry carve well?
It seems like most any tree-like gymnosperm that did not have needles was called Cedar for colloquial communication.
We all share have regret of - if I had only known then.... But processing and storing that much wood - let alone having the time to do it - at a time in your life when priorities were different.
A recent one for me is the realization that Blue Mold infected Holly is probably more suited for our use than the snow white stock that is sold. No wood actually used in ship building was white. The infected wood looks like a sun bleached deck.
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Jaager got a reaction from rlb in How to "unstick" this chuck from the mill spindle?
Would cold cause the components to contract?
I have a vague memory of an aerosol something that acted like liquid Nitrogen.
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Jaager got a reaction from allanyed in Does cherry carve well?
It seems like most any tree-like gymnosperm that did not have needles was called Cedar for colloquial communication.
We all share have regret of - if I had only known then.... But processing and storing that much wood - let alone having the time to do it - at a time in your life when priorities were different.
A recent one for me is the realization that Blue Mold infected Holly is probably more suited for our use than the snow white stock that is sold. No wood actually used in ship building was white. The infected wood looks like a sun bleached deck.
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Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Does cherry carve well?
It is my postulation that it is that wood does not embrittle over time. Rather, once it is seasoned and is in equilibrium with its ambient humidity, it is its basic nature that is expressed.
Cedar is just brittle. It was old when it was cut, so sitting around as processed stock for a long time is not the problem. Its structure will show the effects of it "breathing" water vapor.
Wood will swell with 100% relative humidity and shrink in a Death Valley-like dry environment. Lignin bonds may fail - over time. It may crack along the grain as it moves under these stresses.
As an aside, AYC is not a cedar at all, it is a sort of Cypress.
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Jaager got a reaction from Canute in DIY Chopper
There is a blade that is used by carpet layers - single edge - about 4" long - a bit stiffer - starts out sharp. Stripper blade.
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Jaager reacted to allanyed in Does cherry carve well?
Dean,
NUTS!! Going back a little over 50 years ago, had I known about this being a good wood to harvest I might have had 100 lifetimes supply (and would have happily sent you a few hundred board feet) when I sawed down an acre of the stuff then had the stumps backhoed out. Some went into piles of cordwood and the rest went into a dozen or more wood piles all over the lot and then burned to ash before building our house.. These were Crataegus pennsylvanica, known as the Pennsylvania thorn, which is a species of hawthorn but I have no idea if it has similar properties to the other species of hawthorn. These were all over western PA and most folks hated them because of the thorns and the little apples that dropped all over the yard. Live and learn......
Allan
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Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Does cherry carve well?
It is my postulation that it is that wood does not embrittle over time. Rather, once it is seasoned and is in equilibrium with its ambient humidity, it is its basic nature that is expressed.
Cedar is just brittle. It was old when it was cut, so sitting around as processed stock for a long time is not the problem. Its structure will show the effects of it "breathing" water vapor.
Wood will swell with 100% relative humidity and shrink in a Death Valley-like dry environment. Lignin bonds may fail - over time. It may crack along the grain as it moves under these stresses.
As an aside, AYC is not a cedar at all, it is a sort of Cypress.
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Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in DIY Chopper
There is a blade that is used by carpet layers - single edge - about 4" long - a bit stiffer - starts out sharp. Stripper blade.
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Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Does cherry carve well?
I checked my files of Blom and Emke - I partook of the same hallucinogen but recovered before I went out too far to make it back.😉
At least there are not decades of port laurels. For those, my first thought would be to carve a master. Make a negative using clay. Fill it with a wood flour-PVA mixure. guild that. I wonder if this would work for balustrades?
For the free standing and relief statues, what I would try for a carving substrate:
Boxwood - Buxus sempervirens - I bought a log long ago
Castelo
Hard Maple just to see
AYC - Alaska Yellow Ceder - it is soft and buttery - probably wants short careful strokes with an exquisitely fine edge.
Then there is the wood I had to harvest
Dogwood (Corus florida)
Apple
Bradford Pear
and wood that I wish I could have found
Hawthorn of any variety
For what you want, you have the advantage of looking in supplies of wood sold for pen turning, general turning, and bowl blanks. Almost all of it will be very high cost per volume, but your volume need is small.
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Jaager got a reaction from allanyed in Black rigging wax?
The rigging tables in old books, contracts, ad plan margins are rope circumferences. It was easier to measure than diameter. Rope will crush, so even if they had developed a standard caliper, the diameter measurement would be ambiguous.
We live by diameter, so pi is our friend when converting to what is needed for a model.
Diameter is easy to determine at model scale. A dowel is all that is needed. A fat one works fairly easy. Place two marks around the dowel that are 1 inch apart. A tight coil of the rope between the two marks. Count the number of revolutions. That is the diameter.
Internally consistent in your shop is best, so measure everything yourself. This is how you get the gauge for commercial thread.
For linen - go to Etsy - enter "linen yarn" cones and be prepared for frustration. Not many want what we are after, so our stuff is at the bottom of a few thousand cycling offers.
Irish or Belgian would have better QA, but I suspect that neither have the slave labor needed for economical processing.
The Asian producers who have the low cost labor, seem to want to sell in shipping container size lots - if the size of what they are selling can be deciphered.
Be aware that 16/2 is two 16 # not two smaller yarns that twist up to be 16.
The larger the number, the smaller the yarn. When twisting up three yarns, #40 by Lea is #24 by Nm and these will make stay size rope For running rigging - the larger number "unicorns" are the target.
Look up "rope walk" here.
If you had the acreage, if you could find linen seed for varieties that have small diameter, long fibers in the stem, if the weather does not bring rain when it will rot the cut and field fermenting plants, getting the stems into the needed fibers and then yarn is a complex and finesse sort of operation that wants years of experience taught by older generations stretching back to infinity.
gauge - old link not looking to see if it still is there: info@baltic-flax.com
I suspect that hemp fibers are too thick. I am not sure that I have seen much hemp cloth. Investigate and experiment and report.
old links:
https://store.vavstuga.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_code=yarns-linen-lace
https://www.yarn.com/categories/linen-weaving-yarn
https://www.threadneedlestreet.com/ look for LONDONDERRY LINEN THREAD