Black rigging wax?

[TK1]

Hi all,

 

Browsing an online store to see if I needed to add anything to an order, and I came across "black rigging wax".  Looks like the clear/natural beeswax I'd used in the past, but a black paste.  Hadn't seen it before.

 

Does anyone use this or have opinions on it for tarred/blackened rigging?  Not sure if it would dye natural rigging black enough, or end up being a messy coating.  Seems like a good idea if it's suitable to give a shiny, tarred look to standing rigging.

 

Willing to pay the price to experiment, but thought I'd ask - a search only turned up a brief mention in an old build log.

 

Thanks,
Darren

[Bob Cleek]

If it's bees' wax, I'd think it would not be  a good idea. Bees' wax tends to be acidic and over time could cause the thread to become weakened.

 

Wax of any kind on rigging thread can attract and hold dust. 

 

At "scale viewing distances," there's no observable shine to tarred rigging.  If a coating is required on rigging thread, clear shellac is a good option and is invisible once dry. 

[TK1]

Thanks Bob.  Good point on it attracting dust, and weaken the rigging.  Will give it a miss and stick to paint or shellacked black rigging.  Just checking I wasn't missing some amazing new development in my absence from wooden ship building 🙂

 

Darren

[Lost and Confused]

Hi TK1. I have tried using Black, Kiwi shoe polish with good success. good black color, gives you your lube for running through blocks, etc.

[paul ron]

so bees wax is not recomened on rigging?

 

ive been using it for over 50 years. yes my old ship's rigging has gotten delicate with age, but i attribute that to the longevity of the material of the thread. 

 

so what thread material has the best longevity and what are we now using as a preservative if not wax?

 

btw the bees wax i use is sold by an ukranian easter egg supplier. he has black and naturan for $1/cake.

 

Edited January 23 by paul ron

[Jaager]

29 minutes ago, paul ron said:

so what thread material has the best longevity and what are we now using as a preservative if not wax?

Linen/flax   Egyptian mummies were wrapped in linen.

The currently available linen yarn seems to come from Estonia and the Baltic region around it.  They could use a much better QA system to avoid the stem junk inclusions that break the yarn during twist up.  It comes as bleached (white), half bleached (off white) and natural - which is olive green .  Natural is probably more authentic than white for running rigging.  

Linen yarn is thicker than cotton thread.

fibers -> yarn -> thread -> line ->rope        -> = "multiples twist up to produce"

 

The values for gauge are  tar pit 

Lea   yds/lb / 300

Nm  # 1000m/kg

Nec  # 840yd/lb

for all  the larger the number the smaller the diameter

The commercially available material is tricky to decipher.   Yarn sold as 40/2 Lea  is not what we hope it would be.  Instead of being two 80 Lea lines twisted to make a final line that is 40 Lea dia. , it is two 40 Lea lines making a final that is 20 Lea dia.   Except that twisting two lines does not double the the diameter - far from it - but the point is that it is not a way to get smaller diameter yarn

 

Preservative   (which is not actually what is the function)  There is too much surface area for any preservative to actually succeed in doing that.

 

Shellac

Renaissance Wax -pH neutral and devoid of traces of insect GI enzymes.

Lineco neutral pH bookbinders PVA

 

Man made synthetics will vary with what chemical chain the polymer is, but all will probably be subject to  embrittlement  by chemical reactions internal to the material - light and oxygen will speed it. 

[paul ron]

where can i buy linen thread? i seem to remember there were only a couple suppliers overseas and expensive. 

 

so wax is dead. when i started building ships it was highly recomended. but times change. ill look into the shelac... but doesnt that stiffen when dried?

 

 

[Bob Cleek]

11 hours ago, paul ron said:

where can i buy linen thread? i seem to remember there were only a couple suppliers overseas and expensive. 

 

so wax is dead. when i started building ships it was highly recomended. but times change. ill look into the shelac... but doesnt that stiffen when dried?

 

 

From all recent reports, linen thread of sufficient quality for rigging line material has become extremely difficult to reliably source in recent times. There is reportedly some NOS (“new, old stock”) linen thread offered on eBay, but the size and quality are “catch as catch can.” Modelers currently using it are probably using “stashes” of linen thread they purchased ages ago. 

 

A Google search will provide a number of retailers offering linen thread, but much of what they are offering is specialty material, such as heavy pre-waxed thread for leather working or bookbinding. Other online retailers don’t indicate thread size. When just checking now, I was surprised to see that Guttermann offers a waxed linen thread. You may want to research what Guttermann has to offer in terms of linen thread in their line. See: https://www.amazon.com/Gutermann-Waxed-Strong-Sewing-Thread/dp/B019HRLE1A/ref=asc_df_B019HRLE1A&mcid=c6045ff257ee34edb6ad3599ab063d4d?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80058380336600&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583657849049970&psc=1&msclkid=998cf52caad914ea2e15909d34b77174 I expect that anyone who has a lead on where suitable linen thread can be purchased will share it in due course. 

 

Yes, shellac applied to thread will make the thread stiff once the alcohol solvent evaporates, which it does quickly. This is one of its main advantages when used as a rigging material. A drop will cement a knot and prevent its accidental untying when the “bitter end” is cut short. A bit of alcohol will soften it so a shellacked knot can be untied if necessary. When applied to a slack line or to a coil of line, the line can be formed as desired to shape the coil or form a catenary in a slack line. As the alcohol evaporates, the degree of stiffening increases, so it can be easily “worked” to a desired shape. We’re talking about applying thinned shellac of two or three pound cut (as it is diluted when sold premixed in cans.) Repeated applications of shellac on top of previous dried applications will build up a usually undesirable thick coating with a gloss finish. When only one or two applications of thinned shellac are applied, these will soak into the surface and be invisible when dry.

Edited January 24 by Bob Cleek

[allanyed]

On 1/19/2024 at 7:43 PM, Lost and Confused said:

Black, Kiwi shoe polish with good success. good black color

If you are trying to simulate tarred standing rigging lines, it was dark brown, not black.  You can buy Stockholm tar today, but I have no idea if it is like the Stockholm tar used in the age of sail.  I do wonder if anyone has tried it on model standing rigging instead of dyes.

Allan

 

[petervisser]

 

 

Hi Darren.

Have you considered seine twine? I have used this on my last few models with good effect. It come in many diameters and is pre-waxed. So much so that I run a strand through a paper towel to remove the excess. I'm fortunate to have a marine chandler in town which usually has a good supply. I'm not sure if it's available online as I haven't looked.

Good luck in your quest.

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited January 27 by petervisser

[Bob Cleek]

On 1/25/2024 at 3:08 AM, allanyed said:

You can buy Stockholm tar today, but I have no idea if it is like the Stockholm tar used in the age of sail.  I do wonder if anyone has tried it on model standing rigging instead of dyes.

Yes, it's the same stuff. While different grades of quality may still exist as in the olden days ("Stockholm" being "finestkind,") pine tar is still pine tar. It's readily available online and its primary modern-day uses are still as a wood and natural fiber rope preservative, especially in traditional maritime applications, as an ingredient in certain soaps, and in veterinary, and even human, medicine, as a topical antiseptic for the treatment of dermatological conditions. Notably, due to pine tar's long-lasting stickiness, it is also applied to wooden handles, baseball bats being a famous example, to improve a user's grip. I can't imagine anyone using it on a ship model, though. Aside from its agreeable aroma, it's a rather nasty, sticky substance of extremely dark brown color that gets all over everything and is slow to polymerize, so it stays sticky for a long while. The British sailors were called "tars" because they became covered with the icky stuff in the course of their shipboard duties. Critically, in the Age of Sail, pine tar was an essential naval store, access to which determined the effectiveness of European navies, and the Swedish crown's monopoly on the production of the largest quantity of the highest quality pine tar gave them advantageous leverage in European international relations until the British Admiralty discovered that the abundant pine forests of their American colony of North Carolina produced pine tar of equal or better quality than the "Stockholm tar" the Swedes made from their Baltic pines. Once British pine tar production ramped up in North Carolina, her residents became known as "Tar Heels," and have been ever since, because once you are around the stuff any amount of time, you will get it on your feet and track the stuff all over the place.  Applying thinned pine tar to your model ship rigging will probably give your model and anywhere it is displayed a highly authentic "yarr!" aroma for a good long while, but by the time it's finished both you and your model will likely be stained dark brown to black from stem to stern, just like its prototype was. 

 

 Pine tar on a baseball bat. 

 

Edited January 26 by Bob Cleek

[allanyed]

Thanks for the history Bob, very very interesting.  Never put the pine tar on bats practice together with standing rigging coating practice, before.

Allan

[paul ron]

twine may be too heavy but we are on the right track with gutterman waxed linen. i was at joanns today looking for it but no dice. they do carry hemp thread in a light tan. anyone try that before?

 

so i saw a wide variety of silk, cotton and polyester... no linens. if you were limited to those, which would be better? 

 

oh and is there a standard gage for these threads? i dont see any indications on the spools.

 

this part of rigging is a real pita. the actual work is fun. 

[Jaager]

3 hours ago, paul ron said:

oh and is there a standard gage for these threads?

The rigging tables in old books, contracts, ad plan margins are rope circumferences.  It was easier to measure than diameter.  Rope will crush, so even if they had developed a standard caliper, the diameter measurement would be ambiguous.

We live by diameter, so pi is our friend when converting to what is needed for a model.

 

Diameter is easy to determine at model scale.   A dowel is all that is needed.  A fat one works fairly easy.  Place two marks around the dowel that are 1 inch apart. A tight coil of the rope between the two marks.  Count the number of revolutions.   That is the diameter.  

Internally consistent in your shop is best, so measure everything yourself.  This is how you get the gauge for commercial thread.

 

For linen -  go to Etsy  - enter "linen yarn"  cones  and be prepared for frustration.  Not many want what we are after, so our stuff is at the bottom of a few thousand cycling offers.

Irish or Belgian would have better QA, but I suspect that neither have the slave labor needed for economical processing. 

The Asian producers who have the low cost labor, seem to want to sell in shipping container size lots - if the size of what they are selling can be deciphered.

Be aware that 16/2  is two 16 #   not  two smaller yarns that twist up to be 16.

The larger the number, the smaller the yarn.   When twisting up three yarns,  #40 by Lea is #24 by Nm  and these will make stay size rope  For running rigging - the larger number "unicorns" are the target.

Look up "rope walk" here.

 

If you had the acreage,  if you could find linen seed for varieties that have small diameter, long fibers in the stem,  if the weather does not bring rain when it will rot the cut and field fermenting plants,  getting the stems into the needed fibers and then yarn is a complex and finesse sort of operation that wants years of experience taught by older generations stretching back to infinity.

 

gauge -  old link  not looking  to see if it still is there:  info@baltic-flax.com

 

I suspect that hemp fibers are too thick.  I am not sure that I have seen much hemp cloth.  Investigate and experiment and report.

 

old links:

https://store.vavstuga.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_code=yarns-linen-lace

 

https://www.yarn.com/categories/linen-weaving-yarn

 

https://www.threadneedlestreet.com/       look for LONDONDERRY LINEN THREAD

 

 

 

Edited January 27 by Jaager

[Bob Cleek]

The Guterman linen thread seems to only be offered in No. 30 thickness and from their product description is a rather large thread used "for sewing heavy and strong fabrics such as leather and canvas tarpaulins."  It might possibly be suitable for ship models, but with only one size of thread, one would have a hard time getting much of a range of scale sizes out of it. It's also apparently out of stock at the moment, through Amazon, at least. See:  Linen thread from Gütermann creativ | Linen thread (guetermann.com) 

 

Hemp thread should be an interesting alternative to explore. I've read that hemp and flax (linen) fibers are virtually indistinguishable with hemp being preferred for rope making. There are various grades of thread, though, and any particular product will have to be examined for its suitability. Lower grades of linen thread, for example, can be "lumpy" and not of uniform diameter, which will not yield good rigging rope. 

 

I'm sorry if your "A" has a "P" in it at the moment, but it's only begun to ache.  You're almost certainly barking up the wrong tree if you are looking to buy thread in your local Joann's Fabrics or the equivalent home-sewing store. I'll try to give you the very basics and then a link to make your life much easier.  

 

Due to the unavailability of suitable linen thread on the world market, some highly respected European museum curators have given their blessing to the use of "microcore spun polyester" thread in ship model restoration work. For that reason alone, I wouldn't look any farther than that. Like everybody else, I've looked high and low on the internet for linen thread without success, at least as far as suitable size and quality for ship model rope making is concerned. The brand of thread now being recommended for making ship model rigging is "Gutermann Mara." That's just enough information to get you into real trouble because there are actually two sources for Gutermann Mara thread and they each sell different ranges of it. Stay with me now...

 

Because ship modelers rig small scale models with varying sizes, or "weights," of thread, as they're called in the trade, or spin varying sizes of thread into scale rope, where thread of different weights can be found. Retail home-sewing stores will only carry Gutermann Mara thread in a single weight and on spools to fit home sewing machines, and not in the whole range of thread weights we need to make ship model rigging cordage of varying scale sizes. Don't waste your time looking for it at Joann's or Beverley Fabrics. The Gutermann Mara thread we need in a wide range of sizes is sold to their industrial distributors by Gutermann's industrial division in cases of spools of a single color or wound on large "cones" of thread used on industrial sewing machines. Ship modelers have to buy their Gutermann Mara thread from Gutermann's industrial distributors which service commercial customers. It won't be found at a retail home-sewing and fabrics store. 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This is the "inside dope" from Gutermann's National Sales Manager on this end of the thread business:

 

The difference between Mara from the Retail segment of Gutermann compared to the Industrial segment of Gutermann

"Most fabric stores carry Gutermann Sew All which is a Mara thread and the most common size is Tex 30. Mara is a MicroCore Spun Polyester thread and Tex 30 is the most popular Tex size sold in the home-sewing market.

The spool sizes are smaller, have a different 'weight' per cone and are more suited to domestic machines.

Mara from the Industrial division is the same thread construction, MicroCore Polyester, but the Industrial segment has Tex 19, 25, 30, 40, 60, 100, 200 265 and 400. The spool is different, and the Tex sizes are produced for various fabric weights, stitch types and seaming requirements. The Industrial products are made for use on Industrial machines and often the cones will not run correctly on a domestic or home machine. Industrial Distributors are set up to service small manufacturers, designers, and workrooms who buy a variety of thread types and need a variety of colors - while the Industrial Division of Gutermann sells only by the box of a color or in larger cone sizes compared to the Retail Division.

In some cases there are similar products available from both divisions but in general, the Industrial Division is supplying the manufacturing segment of the business."

 

Difference Between Gutermann and Mara Thread sewing discussion topic @ PatternReview.com

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

The thread industry uses a rather confusing system of different thread sizing systems to designate the size of their thread. Some even use one sizing system for natural fiber thread sizing and another system for sizing synthetic fiber thread. Gutermann uses one of the more common thread sizing systems, so as long as you are buying Gutermann thread, the "Tex" system is the only one you need to worry about. Just remember, the higher the Tex number, the thicker the thread size. (Important! Don't confuse Gutermann's in-house "Mara product number" weight grading system with the Tex grading system! The Gutermann "Mara number" system is the reverse of the Tex system. The higher the "Mara product number," the lighter or thinner the thread.) 

 

 Fortunately for us, the Wawak Sewing Supply Company, in New Jersey, I believe, sells the entire range of standard colors and weights of Gutermann Mara poly wrapped poly core thread in eleven graduated thread "weights" (sizes) online. Their service is great and their prices reasonable. (Tip: order a range of thread weights at the same time, based on your desired size scale rigging cordage and pay only their one shipping charge per order.) See: Gutermann Mara 100 Poly Wrapped Poly Core Thread - Tex 30 - WAWAK Sewing Supplies

 

Review all the threads stored at Discussions about Rope Making - Model Ship World™ to find a "cookbook" full of specific "recipes" for spinning specific scale sizes of model ship cordage from specific sizes of thread as well as a collection of rope making "tricks of the trade." There will be instructions on the sizes of Gutermann Mara thread to buy, and a selection of Gutermann color code numbers for standing and running rigging. Everything you need to know is to be found in this MSW forum sub-topic. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28 by Bob Cleek

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, Jaager said:

gauge -  old link  not looking  to see if it still is there:  info@baltic-flax.com

Here's a pretty good downloadable universal thread weight conversion chart: wawak.com/globalassets/documents/waw_pim/gtda/gtdamp/thread-size-conversion-chart/

[paul ron]

all great info friends. but the question is what can i use that is available at the simple joanns that has logevity? im stuck here. cotton over polyester or nylon? 

 

my oldest ships are 45 years old. the rigging was all done with plain sewing threads i waxed woth bees wax.  i ran it on my walk to make scale rope. the heavy standing was with button thread. cotton and polyester was the main threads in my box then. well after 45 years of sitting on the shelf, some rigging is rather brittle. which ones?... who knows. so should i worry about what i use since in 45 years from now, ill probably be dead? mmmmm maybe im over thinking this way to much. 

 

what do you guys use and what are your oldest time tested riggs made of?

 

 

[Bob Cleek]

As mentioned, the museum curators who care for the finest museum models in Europe say that Gutermann Mara MicroCore Spun Polyester thread passed their tests for archival quality. Any decent quality spun polyester thread should be a reasonable choice if you are impatient, but the price of impatience could be the inability to get what you want in the colors and weights you want from a home-sewing store. As I mentioned, the home-sewing stores carry Tex 30 thead because it works the best in home sewing machines. 

 

If you don't mind waiting less than a week for your order to be sent from Wawak Sewing Supplies, you can get Gutermann Mara "industrial strength" thread from Wawak in any of the eleven sizes and God only knows how many colors to choose from online right now at https://www.wawak.com/thread/thread-by-use/all-purpose/gutermann-mara-100-poly-wrapped-poly-core-thread-tex-30/#sku=gtda000

 

You can use cotton as well, but it doesn't have the longevity of polyester. You can dye cotton rather easily. The synthetics are another story on that score. It's best to get synthetics that were colored when the fibers were made. Stay away from nylon and any single strand "fishing line" sort of plastic stuff. 

 

 

 

[paul ron]

so the polyesters are ok then. joanns has the mara and plenty polyester threads in several weights in a wide assortment of colors. 

 

thanks

paul

 

 

[Gregory]

21 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

Everything you need to know is to be found in this MSW forum sub-topic. 

Another thing to keep in mind, when you spin your own rope, differences in machinery, set-up and conditions ( humidity, temperature ) an cause subtle differences, not necessarily negligible at scale.

[Bob Cleek]

5 hours ago, paul ron said:

so the polyesters are ok then. joanns has the mara and plenty polyester threads in several weights in a wide assortment of colors. 

5 hours ago, Gregory said:

Another thing to keep in mind, when you spin your own rope, differences in machinery, set-up and conditions ( humidity, temperature ) an cause subtle differences, not necessarily negligible at scale.

Gregory's comment is spot on. Not all polyester threads are necessarily the same for purposes of spinning scale cordage!

 

I want to be sure I have not misled you when I said in my post #18 that, "As mentioned, the museum curators who care for the finest museum models in Europe say that Gutermann Mara MicroCore Spun Polyester thread passed their tests for archival quality. Any decent quality spun polyester thread should be a reasonable choice if you are impatient, but the price of impatience could be the inability to get what you want in the colors and weights you want from a home-sewing store." That statement was in response to your question at post #17, "all great info friends. but the question is what can i use that is available at the simple joanns that has logevity? im stuck here. cotton over polyester or nylon?" It was not my intention to convey simply that "Any decent quality spun polyester thread should be a reasonable choice..." Rather, in the context of your question, "...what can i use that is available at the simple joanns that has logevity? im stuck here. cotton over polyester or nylon?" my statement was qualified: 1) "As mentioned, the museum curators who care for the finest museum models in Europe say that Gutermann Mara MicroCore Spun Polyester thread passed their tests for archival quality." and "Any decent quality spun polyester thread should be a reasonable choice if you are impatient, but the price of impatience could be the inability to get what you want in the colors and weights you want from a home-sewing store."

  

Perhaps I should have answered your question more clearly, by saying, "If for some reason you cannot obtain from the Wawak Sewing Company the Gutermann Mara MicroCore Spun Polyester thread discussed in the forum's Discussions about Rope Making - Model Ship World™ section, any other decent quality spun polyester thread should be chosen as a reasonable substitute ahead of any thread made of any other currently available material."  

 

You can rig your model with whatever thread you wish, obtained from wherever you wish. If you're asking which currently readily available thread has the best archival qualities and where it can be obtained, the best answer I can give you are those to be found at Discussions about Rope Making - Model Ship World™.