jud

I'm impressed...Nedad.  Following you from the beginning and watching you make mistakes..correct.....change....modify....again and again as you perfected the model and your skills.  Very mice indeed.
 
Rob

I worked on this a bit today, and it seems to me the rigid divider approach was incorrect..I instead determined the bulkhead width at the deck, the height of the bulkhead relative to the keel both at the keel and the deck, then drew lines that I saw as fair..I will cut some 1/16 ply wood and see how this goes..

I'm currently restoring one of those kits for a local museum and am using a set of plans from 1964 - the scale
indicated on the plans is 1/96...hope that helps!
 
Cheers

Built mine in 72, don't remember. Seems like it was about 2 feet long. The the length of the ship and model are the numbers to crunch to find out.
jud
 
looked up a length of 212' long, using your 24", I came up with 1/106, that seems like an odd number to me. Could be the 212' is hull and your 24" is overall.

Thanks so much for responding.

Built mine in 72, don't remember. Seems like it was about 2 feet long. The the length of the ship and model are the numbers to crunch to find out.
jud
 
looked up a length of 212' long, using your 24", I came up with 1/106, that seems like an odd number to me. Could be the 212' is hull and your 24" is overall.

Unlikely that the glue is causing your problem, I suspect that it is a temperature or moisture change. Cause, wood not cured, sawed but not sized after curing or you are adding moisture as a bending aid. Don't sand anything until you find out why you are having this problem, sand it now to fit, and the wood dries further it will shrink, your sanded to match high planks will become the low ones.
jud

About half the time that I use a clove hitch, I can tie it and throw it over the end of something, or to make a temporary halter from a rope by twisting the large loops around each other once and adjusting to fit, a half hitch once on will keep it in place if you expect a storm. learned that from an old cowboy when I was a kid and he had me tying the clove hitch using two hands without using the ends of the rope. Lay the rope over your right hand holding with your thumb, palm up. Left hand, palm down, thumb pointing away from the body, holding the rope so it runs under the left thumb straight out to the right through the right hand. Now twist both hands counter clock wise and lay the loops together and you have a clove hitch, The crossings will be down, but playing with the constrictor knot discovered that you can turn the crossings of the clove hitch up, then tuck the end coming out to the right under the inside loop, closest to the body clove hitch loop, and turn it into a constrictor. Once the movements become automatic in taking a hold of the rope so you can twist counter clock wise, tying the clove hitch and the constrictor can be done quickly. Now I need to find a way to tie the constrictor around  a pole or ring.
jud

About half the time that I use a clove hitch, I can tie it and throw it over the end of something, or to make a temporary halter from a rope by twisting the large loops around each other once and adjusting to fit, a half hitch once on will keep it in place if you expect a storm. learned that from an old cowboy when I was a kid and he had me tying the clove hitch using two hands without using the ends of the rope. Lay the rope over your right hand holding with your thumb, palm up. Left hand, palm down, thumb pointing away from the body, holding the rope so it runs under the left thumb straight out to the right through the right hand. Now twist both hands counter clock wise and lay the loops together and you have a clove hitch, The crossings will be down, but playing with the constrictor knot discovered that you can turn the crossings of the clove hitch up, then tuck the end coming out to the right under the inside loop, closest to the body clove hitch loop, and turn it into a constrictor. Once the movements become automatic in taking a hold of the rope so you can twist counter clock wise, tying the clove hitch and the constrictor can be done quickly. Now I need to find a way to tie the constrictor around  a pole or ring.
jud

About half the time that I use a clove hitch, I can tie it and throw it over the end of something, or to make a temporary halter from a rope by twisting the large loops around each other once and adjusting to fit, a half hitch once on will keep it in place if you expect a storm. learned that from an old cowboy when I was a kid and he had me tying the clove hitch using two hands without using the ends of the rope. Lay the rope over your right hand holding with your thumb, palm up. Left hand, palm down, thumb pointing away from the body, holding the rope so it runs under the left thumb straight out to the right through the right hand. Now twist both hands counter clock wise and lay the loops together and you have a clove hitch, The crossings will be down, but playing with the constrictor knot discovered that you can turn the crossings of the clove hitch up, then tuck the end coming out to the right under the inside loop, closest to the body clove hitch loop, and turn it into a constrictor. Once the movements become automatic in taking a hold of the rope so you can twist counter clock wise, tying the clove hitch and the constrictor can be done quickly. Now I need to find a way to tie the constrictor around  a pole or ring.
jud

I have used the cow-hitch in smaller scales, as it represents the sewing without really having to do it - not that I am lazy, but it can be near-impossible to find a thin enough thread for the sewing.

With regard to dafi's post above two opposite forces act on a submerged object. Gravity equal to the open air weight of the object is pulling it down. Buoyancy equal to the weight of the the water displaced by the object is pushing up. The force on the anchor cable is therefore equal to the net of these two forces.
 
If water is one seventh as dense as wrought iron, then the force on the anchor cable after being broken out is 6/7 not 1/7 of the anchor's weight.
 
Roger Pellett

I just want to say thank you Pat in post #122 for accurately understanding and explaining my position better than I am capable of, and for your well thought answer to my initial question. Also I'd like to thank everyone who contributed their time and input or who has taken an interest in my question. This topic has raised some good points and other questions, such as why the tiller was so long. Unfortunately I don't have the energy or the health to pursue these questions any further in this discussion.
 
My presence is now required in the shipyard and else where so thanks again everyone.
 
Cheers Dashi

Besides tilting the hawse holes down and lining them, the French sometimes put rollers under the lip of the holes. Most often in larger ships, but frigates got them as well. Bolsters (bull noses) were common if they didn't use rollers.
 

 
Ciao. John

Thanks Dave. Your build is looking good too.
 
Update: Plugged old stanchion holes and dremeled new ones to match 1768 as fitted draught. After fitting the fore rails the yard boss noticed some of the holes were in the wrong places so remeasured and very carefully re filled and dremeled. Stripped back the supposed 'tiller support' to bring it to what I think might be more acceptable for Cooks New Zealand 1770 jury rig. Not sure if the armourers could have forged an iron runner so at this stage have left it off. I'm also not sure whether the tiller braces that it replaced would have been kept on or removed. Logic tells me they would have been taken off as they might interfere with the sweep and cause the tiller to jamb. I'm still thinking on that. One thing I'm reasonably sure of is that Cook wouldn't have sailed until he was certain it would last the rest of the voyage through uncharted waters.
 
Painted rails and dry fitted everything to see how it looks.
 
Cheers Dashi

Thanks to all who have contributed to this discussion !  I have learned a couple things not previously known to me.  That learning experience is one of the hallmarks of this site.  Both seasoned builders and novices contribute to the site.  Keeps me coming back sometimes multiple times in a day, just to see what I might have missed.
 
Tom

Waterway worries
 
Panama Canal expansion brings about new challenges for pilots, tug operators
- See more at: http://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_popover.aspx?guid=2fb0c10a-05e0-48e0-9597-8cb124a65d8f#sthash.tZLKjblD.dpuf
By Juan Zamorano and Peter Orsi
Associated Press
ON LAKE MIRAFLORES, Panama — Waiting to guide a cargo carrier toward the Panama Canal's southern locks, Benjamin Russo gazed from his tugboat at another vessel headed north toward the Caribbean Sea.
At 650 feet long and loaded with automobiles, it was a massive ship. Yet, it pales in comparison to the so-called New Panamax behemoths, up to 1,200 feet in length, which within days will begin transiting the waterway. 
I remember watching a special about Pilots being helicoptered to large freighters near the mouth of the Columbia River and this sounds ust as dangerous.
David B
 
 

Good source Dashi. For modern fiber rope I cut and pasted the following from page 38;
A B C D SECTION C : ROPE HANDLING/USAGE PAGE 38 BENDING RADIUS SIzING THE RADIUS OF BITTS, F AIRLEADS, AND CHOCKS Any sharp bend in a rope under load decreases its strength and may cause premature damage or failure. In sizing the radius of bitts, fairleads, sheaves, and chocks for best performance, the following guidelines are offered: Where a rope is deflected more than 10 degrees around a surface (i.e., bitts or chocks), the effective diameter of that surface should not be less than three times the diameter of the rope. Stated another way, the diameter of the surface should be at least three times the rope diameter. Even larger diameters would be better yet because the durability of the rope increases substantially as the diameter of the surface over which it is worked increases. The ratio of the length of an eye splice to the diameter of the object over which the eye is to be placed (for example, bollard, bitt, cleat, etc.) should be a minimum 3:1 relationship (larger is always preferred to improve durability). By using this ratio the angle of the two legs of the eye at its throat will not be so severe as to cause a parting or tearing action at this point (thimbles are normally designed with a 3:1 ratio).   So a modern 4" diameter cable, ( 2r π; [ 2 + 2 x π = 12.6" cable ] ),  should be lead around a minimum of 1 foot diameter lead, but the larger the better. Makes sense to me, the ratio would probably be double with vintage fiber cable. Reason for my discomfort with the accepted description of raising an anchor, there is more to the story.

No Wayne, I am not suggesting that at all. I am wondering how the sharp bends in the anchor cable were avoided or eliminated when the up and down part of the cable recovery was being done. So far, I have seen only some small gains in reducing the bending problem suggested, I think we are moving in the right direction though. Tilting the hawse down, lining it with lead and greasing it would aid in reducing the brake effect of a bend in the cable entering the hawse and help prevent damage to the hawze itself. Bolsters would help a little, they would contribute a lot in avoiding a sharp bend in the cable if they were used to help hold in place, some sort of temporary radius placed over them to ease the angle where the up and down cable was entering the hawse, that could be a viable solution. As far as using the cat for a vertical lift, those sailors were well able to use lashings to attach the lower block to the cable and then lift to the two block position, then stoppers could hold the cable while the lower block was re positioned on the anchor cable for another lift, not the most efficient method but well withing the capabilities of the the seamen and the cat gear. Doing it that way would produce a large slack bow in the anchor cable that could be pulled inboard through the hawse hole as the anchor was lifted. Maybe the answer was hidden in the gear stored below in the Constitution that no one could identify, or figure out what it was used for and had it all removed from the ship some time ago. We should all accept the fact that the seaman of old did everything within their abilities to prevent unnecessary damage to ship and gear. Hauling a cable under tension around a sharp angle would be something they avoided, even if the writings do not explain how. I see lots of critical parts left out of the written descriptions of gun handling so I expect to see such oversights in other writings preserved from the past, just because it is not covered in writings yet discovered, a problem existed then as it does today with pulling lines around sharp bends.
jud

No Wayne, I am not suggesting that at all. I am wondering how the sharp bends in the anchor cable were avoided or eliminated when the up and down part of the cable recovery was being done. So far, I have seen only some small gains in reducing the bending problem suggested, I think we are moving in the right direction though. Tilting the hawse down, lining it with lead and greasing it would aid in reducing the brake effect of a bend in the cable entering the hawse and help prevent damage to the hawze itself. Bolsters would help a little, they would contribute a lot in avoiding a sharp bend in the cable if they were used to help hold in place, some sort of temporary radius placed over them to ease the angle where the up and down cable was entering the hawse, that could be a viable solution. As far as using the cat for a vertical lift, those sailors were well able to use lashings to attach the lower block to the cable and then lift to the two block position, then stoppers could hold the cable while the lower block was re positioned on the anchor cable for another lift, not the most efficient method but well withing the capabilities of the the seamen and the cat gear. Doing it that way would produce a large slack bow in the anchor cable that could be pulled inboard through the hawse hole as the anchor was lifted. Maybe the answer was hidden in the gear stored below in the Constitution that no one could identify, or figure out what it was used for and had it all removed from the ship some time ago. We should all accept the fact that the seaman of old did everything within their abilities to prevent unnecessary damage to ship and gear. Hauling a cable under tension around a sharp angle would be something they avoided, even if the writings do not explain how. I see lots of critical parts left out of the written descriptions of gun handling so I expect to see such oversights in other writings preserved from the past, just because it is not covered in writings yet discovered, a problem existed then as it does today with pulling lines around sharp bends.
jud

Good source Dashi. For modern fiber rope I cut and pasted the following from page 38;
A B C D SECTION C : ROPE HANDLING/USAGE PAGE 38 BENDING RADIUS SIzING THE RADIUS OF BITTS, F AIRLEADS, AND CHOCKS Any sharp bend in a rope under load decreases its strength and may cause premature damage or failure. In sizing the radius of bitts, fairleads, sheaves, and chocks for best performance, the following guidelines are offered: Where a rope is deflected more than 10 degrees around a surface (i.e., bitts or chocks), the effective diameter of that surface should not be less than three times the diameter of the rope. Stated another way, the diameter of the surface should be at least three times the rope diameter. Even larger diameters would be better yet because the durability of the rope increases substantially as the diameter of the surface over which it is worked increases. The ratio of the length of an eye splice to the diameter of the object over which the eye is to be placed (for example, bollard, bitt, cleat, etc.) should be a minimum 3:1 relationship (larger is always preferred to improve durability). By using this ratio the angle of the two legs of the eye at its throat will not be so severe as to cause a parting or tearing action at this point (thimbles are normally designed with a 3:1 ratio).   So a modern 4" diameter cable, ( 2r π; [ 2 + 2 x π = 12.6" cable ] ),  should be lead around a minimum of 1 foot diameter lead, but the larger the better. Makes sense to me, the ratio would probably be double with vintage fiber cable. Reason for my discomfort with the accepted description of raising an anchor, there is more to the story.

Jud I don't how relevant this is as it's not a contemporary source, but I recall learning about cordage diameter to bend ratios when I was in the corps. So I've searched and found this in the  'Rope User's Manual', page 38. http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Rope_Users_Manual_WEB.pdf. It's not specifically talking about ship hawse, but suggests a minimum bend ratio of 1:3 for bitts fairleads and chocks.
 
Dashi

There is also a bolster fitted below the hawse holes.  Sort of a quarter round moulding to ease the cable around that 90 degree angle.
 
Regards,

Jud,
On the angles... the hawse holes were not typically parallel to the water or decks.  There is an angle downward from inside to outside which seems to have varied depending on country, shipyard, etc.   The hawse holes were also lined with lead to ease on the chaffing and wear and tear on the ship and the cable.  And lastly, somewhere I read that in hoisting the anchor, there was some greasing of the hawse holes/cable... but I'm sure how common that was.  It may have been anecdotal for one incident.  When I remember where I read it, I'll dig it out.

Agree with all that has been noted, the cable let out beyond the depth was and is called the scope and it is there to force the flukes to dig in, bringing the ship over the anchor while hauling in on the cable will lift the stock and pull the flukes free of the bottom. It is from that point that I question and still do, something is missing in the lift, not the hauling in of the scope. Granted, exceptional measures are taken when the anchor is snagged on the bottom and sometimes the cable was cut, not questioning those things, only the everyday lifting of a anchor that is on the bottom ready to begin the vertical lift part of the recovery. When an anchor cable becomes so large it can't be used on the capstan without damaging it, why would a sharp angle on the outboard side of the hawse be OK? Thanks all.
jud