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Bob Cleek

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  1. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in Varyag 1901 by Valeriy V - FINISHED - scale 1:75 - Russian Cruiser   
    If there were such a thing as a standing ovation on the internet, we'd all be jumping up and down on our seats. Thanks so much for sharing your work with us. Your progress was a pleasure, and an education, to watch. Keep safe and know that all of us in the West are rooting, and praying, for you and for Ukraine. 
  2. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from davyboy in Varyag 1901 by Valeriy V - FINISHED - scale 1:75 - Russian Cruiser   
    If there were such a thing as a standing ovation on the internet, we'd all be jumping up and down on our seats. Thanks so much for sharing your work with us. Your progress was a pleasure, and an education, to watch. Keep safe and know that all of us in the West are rooting, and praying, for you and for Ukraine. 
  3. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Ras Ambrioso in Varyag 1901 by Valeriy V - FINISHED - scale 1:75 - Russian Cruiser   
    If there were such a thing as a standing ovation on the internet, we'd all be jumping up and down on our seats. Thanks so much for sharing your work with us. Your progress was a pleasure, and an education, to watch. Keep safe and know that all of us in the West are rooting, and praying, for you and for Ukraine. 
  4. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from amateur in Varyag 1901 by Valeriy V - FINISHED - scale 1:75 - Russian Cruiser   
    If there were such a thing as a standing ovation on the internet, we'd all be jumping up and down on our seats. Thanks so much for sharing your work with us. Your progress was a pleasure, and an education, to watch. Keep safe and know that all of us in the West are rooting, and praying, for you and for Ukraine. 
  5. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Valeriy V in Varyag 1901 by Valeriy V - FINISHED - scale 1:75 - Russian Cruiser   
    Knowing how it all ended for him I can not agree with you.   
  6. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Valeriy V in Varyag 1901 by Valeriy V - FINISHED - scale 1:75 - Russian Cruiser   
    G.L.  , I got all my knowledge of electroforming from the Internet, videos and articles. I added to this my thoughts, ideas and got the technology I needed.
     You can go the same way.  
  7. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Roger Pellett in Coppering the Ship Model Hull   
    Luis,  There is currently a thread on the Painting Topic here on MSW that also relates to this.  As you have discovered gluing wood to metal is difficult with uncertain long term results.  I find that sometimes even Epoxy does not bond well.  My idea posted on the Painting Topic is to simulate copper sheathing with paper, suitably colored.  This can be glued to the hull with ordinary PVA woodworking glue, provided you can get rid of the rubber cement residue.
     
    Roger
  8. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from bridgman in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    Metal powder, including copper, is sold in artists' supply stores in small bottles. Copper powder for mixing antifouling paint is sold in larger quantities from chemical supply houses. It's a component of certain fireworks, as well. Copper Powder for Sale | Metal Powders USA "Copper" bottom paint is about as much as you can buy these days. Until the late 1970's, antifouling paint contained tributyl tin oxide (TBTO) which was a marvelously effective biocide. Unfortunately, perhaps, some international organization agreed to outlaw its use everywhere in the world, or so it seems. TBTO is only available now to licensed purchasers for a few scientific applications. It was determined to be harmful to the environment because it killed marine organisms. Now we have bottom paint that is barely effective for a year (six months is more like it) before it must be recoated. TBTO would provide effective antifouling for sometimes as long as five years.
     
     
  9. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    Metal powder, including copper, is sold in artists' supply stores in small bottles. Copper powder for mixing antifouling paint is sold in larger quantities from chemical supply houses. It's a component of certain fireworks, as well. Copper Powder for Sale | Metal Powders USA "Copper" bottom paint is about as much as you can buy these days. Until the late 1970's, antifouling paint contained tributyl tin oxide (TBTO) which was a marvelously effective biocide. Unfortunately, perhaps, some international organization agreed to outlaw its use everywhere in the world, or so it seems. TBTO is only available now to licensed purchasers for a few scientific applications. It was determined to be harmful to the environment because it killed marine organisms. Now we have bottom paint that is barely effective for a year (six months is more like it) before it must be recoated. TBTO would provide effective antifouling for sometimes as long as five years.
     
     
  10. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    In those photos above, what makes "the seam lines pop out" is actually the moisture in the drying wooden hull that is making its way out from beneath the copper sheathing. It has no way out except between the copper sheeting seams. For that reason, a recently hauled wooden hull will show her seams because the seams remain wet longer than the plank or sheathing faces do. Once the hull dries out more, the seams aren't wet anymore, and so don't appear darker than the surrounding material.
  11. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from tkay11 in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    Copper (and other metal) powder is readily available online and in fine arts stores. Copper Powder, 30 g | Home Science Tools This is real copper that is ground to a very fine dust. It can be applied with a dry brush over a partially-dried (tacky) shellac or varnish coat and, upon final drying of the sizing, can be lightly burnished with a cotton ball and will appear as solid copper. (Brass powder can be used for depicting gold leafed details and polished brass on ship models.) That said, coppered ship bottoms don't ever look shiny, except for a very brief time when the copper is first applied and, on a large ship, the time it would take to copper her bottom would probably have the first sheets oxidized before the last shiny ones were hung. I really don't know where the idea of shiny copper bottoms on ship models came from or why. (There are many pictures online of Cutty Sark's recently restored sheathed bottom and it is "shiny," but she is not "coppered," but rather sheathed in Muntz metal, which is a type of brass invented in 1832 and not found on earlier vessels.)
     
    As a practical matter, at 1:64 scale, your hull shouldn't require showing individually lapped sheathing at all. Always consider the "scale viewing distance." Better to omit a detail entirely than to add a detail that is over scale. (Don't ask me how I learned this. ) You'd probably be better off finishing the bottom smooth and painting it with a base coat of "used penny brown" and then using an airbrush to add a bit of verdigris "green" at the waterline and a few patches of "dark green grunge" here and there. Do the math and you'll see how small scale plates are at 1:64, then figure out how many you're going to have to apply to cover the bottom! Look at the pictures of coppered bottoms above. There's no place for shiny copper on a ship's bottom. Even if the plates are shiny from the mill, in the time it would take to hang them, they'd be well on their way to acquiring an oxidized surface. 
     
    If you aren't familiar with "scale viewing distance," consider the U.S. Navy's"mil spec" contract standard for Navy ship models: "Generally, all items on the prototype twelve inches or larger for 1:96 scale (six inches or larger for 1:48 scale) will be reproduced." [Nautical Research Guild - Article - Specifications for Construction of Exhibition Models of U.S. Naval Vessels (thenrg.org)] Your 1:64 scale is roughly in the middle between 1:96 and 1:48, so, on your model, a good rule of thumb would be that any detail nine inches or larger should be reproduced and any detail smaller than nine inches may be omitted. Obviously, at 1:64 scale, the edge of a 1/16" thick copper plate isn't going to be possible to reproduce, or to see if you could reproduce it.
     
    Myself, I wouldn't go crazy trying to lay a "checkerboard" patchwork of differently colored copper plates on a bottom. I suppose there are times when a vessel is hauled and a few random sheets were replaced during repairs and they'd "stand out" color-wise, but I've seen my share of coppered bottoms freshly hauled out in the boatyards and, truth be told, they all have a uniform color appearance after they've been in the water a while. It takes a bit of time for them to develop that "copper green" look after the air gets to the copper.
     
    As Jaager noted, shellac is reversible with alcohol, but that doesn't mean it's not a messy job to be avoided. As with all finishing on a model, it is essential to do experimental examples of any coating before going forward on the model itself unless you are absolutely familiar with the technique, compatibility of materials, and environmental conditions. This is the best way to avoid ever having to refinish a hull! Take pieces of scrap planking stock (glue them up side by side even) and try various approaches until you get one that satisfies you. Your finished hull isn't the place to experiment.
     
    An airbrush is one tool investment that will kick your modeling abilities up a bunch of notches. It is an investment and there is a learning curve, but if you search for airbrush information on this forum, Kurt can give you all the information you'd ever need about purchasing an airbrushing set up and it doesn't have to put you in the poor house. Learning to use one really boils down to reading the manual and watching YouTube videos. You can use water sprayed on a piece of paper or cardboard to practice getting the hang of controlling the spray, then, when you feel confident, you can graduate to some watercolor and eventually to paint. The airbrush is a very versatile instrument, but for modeling purposes, we generally only avail ourselves of the basics. Think of it as a refillable spray can that will pay for itself in what you'd spend on "rattle cans" with clogged nozzles and wasted paint. The other advantage of an airbrush is that it is a lot easier to obtain a perfect finish than using a brush because learning to use a brush well is apparently more difficult for most. A fine brushed finish will require multiple thin coats, each applied to perfection and very lightly sanded between coats as needed. You have to wait for each coat to dry. An air brush will let you build up fast-drying thin coats in far less time.
     
     
  12. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from tkay11 in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    It all depends on the scale. At eighth inch scale, copper plate thickness isn't going to be visible. At a quarter inch to the foot scale, perhaps plate thickness would be barely visible. The modeler should calculate the scale viewing distance and model accordingly. 
     
    If a realistic scale effect requires actual lapped plates, cutting plates from paper of suitably scaled thickness and gluing these to the hull (shellac is a good adhesive for this purpose) will provide the desired effect. If individual lapped plates are not required, then the modeler can proceed directly to painting the hull. Realistic coppered bottom weathering effects are best achieved with an airbrush using standard artistic techniques. Refer to online photographs to observe the actual appearance to be replicated.
     
    Ship model kit manufacturers frequently include "real copper hull plating" for what can only be a sales gimmick suggesting their kit is "high quality." Unsophisticated purchasers expect this, apparently in the mistaken belief that a high quality model should be constructed of the same materials as the prototype vessel. Individual copper sheet or foil plates would only be useful in very large scale models and the use of real metal sheet or foil is not preferable due to the limitations of adhesives. Most all of the kit-supplied coppering material is over-scale as to thickness, if not as well as to surface dimension. Fasteners will not be visible at model scale viewing distances. (In fact, the mark of a proper coppering job was that the nails were as flush with the surface as possible (accomplished by a proper "coppering hammer" with its dimpled head.) A smooth bottom is a fast bottom. A bottom studded with nail heads the scale size of a man's fist is not.
     
     
     

     

     

     
    Photos before and after re-coppering. Note that copper in saltwater environment will quickly turn verdigris green when exposed to air as seen here with USS Constitution in dock as it's pumped out. The second picture shows her newly coppered bottom right before launch. Here the new copper, exposed to the elements, but not saltwater while in the dock, shows the classic "used penny brown" color of naturally oxidized copper. The modeler will have to decide in which condition they wish to depict the vessel's bottom: freshly coppered (which isn't to say "new penny copper" colored,) as a just-hauled fouled bottom, or as a hauled and cleaned bottom exposed to the air (verdigris green, which many prefer.)
     
    Note that Constitution has about a five-foot wide band of reddish bottom paint applied over her coppered bottom just above her light load waterline. Modernly, most coppered bottoms have antifouling paint applied over the copper in this fashion. While the copper provides a mechanical barrier to marine boring organisms, it does not prevent fouling with seaweed. The bottom paint prevents this growth in the "sunlight zone" below the surface of the water. Further antifouling applied below where there is sufficient sunlight to sustain seaweed growth is omitted as redundant. Note that this is a period issue. Bottom paint came into common usage around 1850 and copper plating correspondingly decreased thereafter.
     
     
  13. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from thibaultron in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    Metal powder, including copper, is sold in artists' supply stores in small bottles. Copper powder for mixing antifouling paint is sold in larger quantities from chemical supply houses. It's a component of certain fireworks, as well. Copper Powder for Sale | Metal Powders USA "Copper" bottom paint is about as much as you can buy these days. Until the late 1970's, antifouling paint contained tributyl tin oxide (TBTO) which was a marvelously effective biocide. Unfortunately, perhaps, some international organization agreed to outlaw its use everywhere in the world, or so it seems. TBTO is only available now to licensed purchasers for a few scientific applications. It was determined to be harmful to the environment because it killed marine organisms. Now we have bottom paint that is barely effective for a year (six months is more like it) before it must be recoated. TBTO would provide effective antifouling for sometimes as long as five years.
     
     
  14. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from thibaultron in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    In those photos above, what makes "the seam lines pop out" is actually the moisture in the drying wooden hull that is making its way out from beneath the copper sheathing. It has no way out except between the copper sheeting seams. For that reason, a recently hauled wooden hull will show her seams because the seams remain wet longer than the plank or sheathing faces do. Once the hull dries out more, the seams aren't wet anymore, and so don't appear darker than the surrounding material.
  15. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from DaveBaxt in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    Metal powder, including copper, is sold in artists' supply stores in small bottles. Copper powder for mixing antifouling paint is sold in larger quantities from chemical supply houses. It's a component of certain fireworks, as well. Copper Powder for Sale | Metal Powders USA "Copper" bottom paint is about as much as you can buy these days. Until the late 1970's, antifouling paint contained tributyl tin oxide (TBTO) which was a marvelously effective biocide. Unfortunately, perhaps, some international organization agreed to outlaw its use everywhere in the world, or so it seems. TBTO is only available now to licensed purchasers for a few scientific applications. It was determined to be harmful to the environment because it killed marine organisms. Now we have bottom paint that is barely effective for a year (six months is more like it) before it must be recoated. TBTO would provide effective antifouling for sometimes as long as five years.
     
     
  16. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from DaveBaxt in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    In those photos above, what makes "the seam lines pop out" is actually the moisture in the drying wooden hull that is making its way out from beneath the copper sheathing. It has no way out except between the copper sheeting seams. For that reason, a recently hauled wooden hull will show her seams because the seams remain wet longer than the plank or sheathing faces do. Once the hull dries out more, the seams aren't wet anymore, and so don't appear darker than the surrounding material.
  17. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from robert952 in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    Metal powder, including copper, is sold in artists' supply stores in small bottles. Copper powder for mixing antifouling paint is sold in larger quantities from chemical supply houses. It's a component of certain fireworks, as well. Copper Powder for Sale | Metal Powders USA "Copper" bottom paint is about as much as you can buy these days. Until the late 1970's, antifouling paint contained tributyl tin oxide (TBTO) which was a marvelously effective biocide. Unfortunately, perhaps, some international organization agreed to outlaw its use everywhere in the world, or so it seems. TBTO is only available now to licensed purchasers for a few scientific applications. It was determined to be harmful to the environment because it killed marine organisms. Now we have bottom paint that is barely effective for a year (six months is more like it) before it must be recoated. TBTO would provide effective antifouling for sometimes as long as five years.
     
     
  18. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from robert952 in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    In those photos above, what makes "the seam lines pop out" is actually the moisture in the drying wooden hull that is making its way out from beneath the copper sheathing. It has no way out except between the copper sheeting seams. For that reason, a recently hauled wooden hull will show her seams because the seams remain wet longer than the plank or sheathing faces do. Once the hull dries out more, the seams aren't wet anymore, and so don't appear darker than the surrounding material.
  19. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    Copper (and other metal) powder is readily available online and in fine arts stores. Copper Powder, 30 g | Home Science Tools This is real copper that is ground to a very fine dust. It can be applied with a dry brush over a partially-dried (tacky) shellac or varnish coat and, upon final drying of the sizing, can be lightly burnished with a cotton ball and will appear as solid copper. (Brass powder can be used for depicting gold leafed details and polished brass on ship models.) That said, coppered ship bottoms don't ever look shiny, except for a very brief time when the copper is first applied and, on a large ship, the time it would take to copper her bottom would probably have the first sheets oxidized before the last shiny ones were hung. I really don't know where the idea of shiny copper bottoms on ship models came from or why. (There are many pictures online of Cutty Sark's recently restored sheathed bottom and it is "shiny," but she is not "coppered," but rather sheathed in Muntz metal, which is a type of brass invented in 1832 and not found on earlier vessels.)
     
    As a practical matter, at 1:64 scale, your hull shouldn't require showing individually lapped sheathing at all. Always consider the "scale viewing distance." Better to omit a detail entirely than to add a detail that is over scale. (Don't ask me how I learned this. ) You'd probably be better off finishing the bottom smooth and painting it with a base coat of "used penny brown" and then using an airbrush to add a bit of verdigris "green" at the waterline and a few patches of "dark green grunge" here and there. Do the math and you'll see how small scale plates are at 1:64, then figure out how many you're going to have to apply to cover the bottom! Look at the pictures of coppered bottoms above. There's no place for shiny copper on a ship's bottom. Even if the plates are shiny from the mill, in the time it would take to hang them, they'd be well on their way to acquiring an oxidized surface. 
     
    If you aren't familiar with "scale viewing distance," consider the U.S. Navy's"mil spec" contract standard for Navy ship models: "Generally, all items on the prototype twelve inches or larger for 1:96 scale (six inches or larger for 1:48 scale) will be reproduced." [Nautical Research Guild - Article - Specifications for Construction of Exhibition Models of U.S. Naval Vessels (thenrg.org)] Your 1:64 scale is roughly in the middle between 1:96 and 1:48, so, on your model, a good rule of thumb would be that any detail nine inches or larger should be reproduced and any detail smaller than nine inches may be omitted. Obviously, at 1:64 scale, the edge of a 1/16" thick copper plate isn't going to be possible to reproduce, or to see if you could reproduce it.
     
    Myself, I wouldn't go crazy trying to lay a "checkerboard" patchwork of differently colored copper plates on a bottom. I suppose there are times when a vessel is hauled and a few random sheets were replaced during repairs and they'd "stand out" color-wise, but I've seen my share of coppered bottoms freshly hauled out in the boatyards and, truth be told, they all have a uniform color appearance after they've been in the water a while. It takes a bit of time for them to develop that "copper green" look after the air gets to the copper.
     
    As Jaager noted, shellac is reversible with alcohol, but that doesn't mean it's not a messy job to be avoided. As with all finishing on a model, it is essential to do experimental examples of any coating before going forward on the model itself unless you are absolutely familiar with the technique, compatibility of materials, and environmental conditions. This is the best way to avoid ever having to refinish a hull! Take pieces of scrap planking stock (glue them up side by side even) and try various approaches until you get one that satisfies you. Your finished hull isn't the place to experiment.
     
    An airbrush is one tool investment that will kick your modeling abilities up a bunch of notches. It is an investment and there is a learning curve, but if you search for airbrush information on this forum, Kurt can give you all the information you'd ever need about purchasing an airbrushing set up and it doesn't have to put you in the poor house. Learning to use one really boils down to reading the manual and watching YouTube videos. You can use water sprayed on a piece of paper or cardboard to practice getting the hang of controlling the spray, then, when you feel confident, you can graduate to some watercolor and eventually to paint. The airbrush is a very versatile instrument, but for modeling purposes, we generally only avail ourselves of the basics. Think of it as a refillable spray can that will pay for itself in what you'd spend on "rattle cans" with clogged nozzles and wasted paint. The other advantage of an airbrush is that it is a lot easier to obtain a perfect finish than using a brush because learning to use a brush well is apparently more difficult for most. A fine brushed finish will require multiple thin coats, each applied to perfection and very lightly sanded between coats as needed. You have to wait for each coat to dry. An air brush will let you build up fast-drying thin coats in far less time.
     
     
  20. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    It all depends on the scale. At eighth inch scale, copper plate thickness isn't going to be visible. At a quarter inch to the foot scale, perhaps plate thickness would be barely visible. The modeler should calculate the scale viewing distance and model accordingly. 
     
    If a realistic scale effect requires actual lapped plates, cutting plates from paper of suitably scaled thickness and gluing these to the hull (shellac is a good adhesive for this purpose) will provide the desired effect. If individual lapped plates are not required, then the modeler can proceed directly to painting the hull. Realistic coppered bottom weathering effects are best achieved with an airbrush using standard artistic techniques. Refer to online photographs to observe the actual appearance to be replicated.
     
    Ship model kit manufacturers frequently include "real copper hull plating" for what can only be a sales gimmick suggesting their kit is "high quality." Unsophisticated purchasers expect this, apparently in the mistaken belief that a high quality model should be constructed of the same materials as the prototype vessel. Individual copper sheet or foil plates would only be useful in very large scale models and the use of real metal sheet or foil is not preferable due to the limitations of adhesives. Most all of the kit-supplied coppering material is over-scale as to thickness, if not as well as to surface dimension. Fasteners will not be visible at model scale viewing distances. (In fact, the mark of a proper coppering job was that the nails were as flush with the surface as possible (accomplished by a proper "coppering hammer" with its dimpled head.) A smooth bottom is a fast bottom. A bottom studded with nail heads the scale size of a man's fist is not.
     
     
     

     

     

     
    Photos before and after re-coppering. Note that copper in saltwater environment will quickly turn verdigris green when exposed to air as seen here with USS Constitution in dock as it's pumped out. The second picture shows her newly coppered bottom right before launch. Here the new copper, exposed to the elements, but not saltwater while in the dock, shows the classic "used penny brown" color of naturally oxidized copper. The modeler will have to decide in which condition they wish to depict the vessel's bottom: freshly coppered (which isn't to say "new penny copper" colored,) as a just-hauled fouled bottom, or as a hauled and cleaned bottom exposed to the air (verdigris green, which many prefer.)
     
    Note that Constitution has about a five-foot wide band of reddish bottom paint applied over her coppered bottom just above her light load waterline. Modernly, most coppered bottoms have antifouling paint applied over the copper in this fashion. While the copper provides a mechanical barrier to marine boring organisms, it does not prevent fouling with seaweed. The bottom paint prevents this growth in the "sunlight zone" below the surface of the water. Further antifouling applied below where there is sufficient sunlight to sustain seaweed growth is omitted as redundant. Note that this is a period issue. Bottom paint came into common usage around 1850 and copper plating correspondingly decreased thereafter.
     
     
  21. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    Metal powder, including copper, is sold in artists' supply stores in small bottles. Copper powder for mixing antifouling paint is sold in larger quantities from chemical supply houses. It's a component of certain fireworks, as well. Copper Powder for Sale | Metal Powders USA "Copper" bottom paint is about as much as you can buy these days. Until the late 1970's, antifouling paint contained tributyl tin oxide (TBTO) which was a marvelously effective biocide. Unfortunately, perhaps, some international organization agreed to outlaw its use everywhere in the world, or so it seems. TBTO is only available now to licensed purchasers for a few scientific applications. It was determined to be harmful to the environment because it killed marine organisms. Now we have bottom paint that is barely effective for a year (six months is more like it) before it must be recoated. TBTO would provide effective antifouling for sometimes as long as five years.
     
     
  22. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    In those photos above, what makes "the seam lines pop out" is actually the moisture in the drying wooden hull that is making its way out from beneath the copper sheathing. It has no way out except between the copper sheeting seams. For that reason, a recently hauled wooden hull will show her seams because the seams remain wet longer than the plank or sheathing faces do. Once the hull dries out more, the seams aren't wet anymore, and so don't appear darker than the surrounding material.
  23. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from robert952 in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    Copper (and other metal) powder is readily available online and in fine arts stores. Copper Powder, 30 g | Home Science Tools This is real copper that is ground to a very fine dust. It can be applied with a dry brush over a partially-dried (tacky) shellac or varnish coat and, upon final drying of the sizing, can be lightly burnished with a cotton ball and will appear as solid copper. (Brass powder can be used for depicting gold leafed details and polished brass on ship models.) That said, coppered ship bottoms don't ever look shiny, except for a very brief time when the copper is first applied and, on a large ship, the time it would take to copper her bottom would probably have the first sheets oxidized before the last shiny ones were hung. I really don't know where the idea of shiny copper bottoms on ship models came from or why. (There are many pictures online of Cutty Sark's recently restored sheathed bottom and it is "shiny," but she is not "coppered," but rather sheathed in Muntz metal, which is a type of brass invented in 1832 and not found on earlier vessels.)
     
    As a practical matter, at 1:64 scale, your hull shouldn't require showing individually lapped sheathing at all. Always consider the "scale viewing distance." Better to omit a detail entirely than to add a detail that is over scale. (Don't ask me how I learned this. ) You'd probably be better off finishing the bottom smooth and painting it with a base coat of "used penny brown" and then using an airbrush to add a bit of verdigris "green" at the waterline and a few patches of "dark green grunge" here and there. Do the math and you'll see how small scale plates are at 1:64, then figure out how many you're going to have to apply to cover the bottom! Look at the pictures of coppered bottoms above. There's no place for shiny copper on a ship's bottom. Even if the plates are shiny from the mill, in the time it would take to hang them, they'd be well on their way to acquiring an oxidized surface. 
     
    If you aren't familiar with "scale viewing distance," consider the U.S. Navy's"mil spec" contract standard for Navy ship models: "Generally, all items on the prototype twelve inches or larger for 1:96 scale (six inches or larger for 1:48 scale) will be reproduced." [Nautical Research Guild - Article - Specifications for Construction of Exhibition Models of U.S. Naval Vessels (thenrg.org)] Your 1:64 scale is roughly in the middle between 1:96 and 1:48, so, on your model, a good rule of thumb would be that any detail nine inches or larger should be reproduced and any detail smaller than nine inches may be omitted. Obviously, at 1:64 scale, the edge of a 1/16" thick copper plate isn't going to be possible to reproduce, or to see if you could reproduce it.
     
    Myself, I wouldn't go crazy trying to lay a "checkerboard" patchwork of differently colored copper plates on a bottom. I suppose there are times when a vessel is hauled and a few random sheets were replaced during repairs and they'd "stand out" color-wise, but I've seen my share of coppered bottoms freshly hauled out in the boatyards and, truth be told, they all have a uniform color appearance after they've been in the water a while. It takes a bit of time for them to develop that "copper green" look after the air gets to the copper.
     
    As Jaager noted, shellac is reversible with alcohol, but that doesn't mean it's not a messy job to be avoided. As with all finishing on a model, it is essential to do experimental examples of any coating before going forward on the model itself unless you are absolutely familiar with the technique, compatibility of materials, and environmental conditions. This is the best way to avoid ever having to refinish a hull! Take pieces of scrap planking stock (glue them up side by side even) and try various approaches until you get one that satisfies you. Your finished hull isn't the place to experiment.
     
    An airbrush is one tool investment that will kick your modeling abilities up a bunch of notches. It is an investment and there is a learning curve, but if you search for airbrush information on this forum, Kurt can give you all the information you'd ever need about purchasing an airbrushing set up and it doesn't have to put you in the poor house. Learning to use one really boils down to reading the manual and watching YouTube videos. You can use water sprayed on a piece of paper or cardboard to practice getting the hang of controlling the spray, then, when you feel confident, you can graduate to some watercolor and eventually to paint. The airbrush is a very versatile instrument, but for modeling purposes, we generally only avail ourselves of the basics. Think of it as a refillable spray can that will pay for itself in what you'd spend on "rattle cans" with clogged nozzles and wasted paint. The other advantage of an airbrush is that it is a lot easier to obtain a perfect finish than using a brush because learning to use a brush well is apparently more difficult for most. A fine brushed finish will require multiple thin coats, each applied to perfection and very lightly sanded between coats as needed. You have to wait for each coat to dry. An air brush will let you build up fast-drying thin coats in far less time.
     
     
  24. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Roger Pellett in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    I recently plated a Great Lakes Steamship Model with Paper.  In this case the paper simulated steel shell plating, not copper sheathing.  The principles would be the same for either.  The actual shell plating of the vessel that I am modeling would have been 1/2 in thick;  at a scale of 1:96 this equates to about .005 in.   
     
    Observations, lessons, etc:
     
    I used an archival quality paper.  Actual thickness was closer to .010in; twice scale.  I didn’t want later coats of paint to hide plating laps.  The eye is not particularly good at judging the difference in thickness.
     
    I first saturated a full sheet of paper with shellac.  I then cut individuals plates with a guillotine paper cutter.  BTW:  I find this to be a handy workshop tool that I use all the time.  I found that paper without shellac was easily damaged.
     
    I glued each plate in place with regular PVA woodworking glue.  I spread the glue with a palette knife and held each plate in place until the glue grabbed.  In cases where the edges curled up, rubbing the paper edges with my fingernail was sufficient.  Clamps, pins, etc were not necessary.
     
    Almost all plates were a “developed shape”;  they easily fit the curvature of the hull in two dimensions.  The few that had a 3-D shape were formed by draping a wet piece of untreated paper over the area in question, allowing it to dry, and then cutting it to its finished shape;  an advantage of wet paper, it can be shaped in three dimensions.
     
    The plated hull could be lightly sanded to clean it up.  
     
    Paper Copper Plating could be painted in two stages.  A full sheet could be painted with a base coat; copper paint, metallic dust, etc.   After the plates have been attached to the hull, it could be shaded, highlighted, etc.  
     
     Roger
     
     
  25. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in Painting a ships hull with a copper and green look paint   
    Copper (and other metal) powder is readily available online and in fine arts stores. Copper Powder, 30 g | Home Science Tools This is real copper that is ground to a very fine dust. It can be applied with a dry brush over a partially-dried (tacky) shellac or varnish coat and, upon final drying of the sizing, can be lightly burnished with a cotton ball and will appear as solid copper. (Brass powder can be used for depicting gold leafed details and polished brass on ship models.) That said, coppered ship bottoms don't ever look shiny, except for a very brief time when the copper is first applied and, on a large ship, the time it would take to copper her bottom would probably have the first sheets oxidized before the last shiny ones were hung. I really don't know where the idea of shiny copper bottoms on ship models came from or why. (There are many pictures online of Cutty Sark's recently restored sheathed bottom and it is "shiny," but she is not "coppered," but rather sheathed in Muntz metal, which is a type of brass invented in 1832 and not found on earlier vessels.)
     
    As a practical matter, at 1:64 scale, your hull shouldn't require showing individually lapped sheathing at all. Always consider the "scale viewing distance." Better to omit a detail entirely than to add a detail that is over scale. (Don't ask me how I learned this. ) You'd probably be better off finishing the bottom smooth and painting it with a base coat of "used penny brown" and then using an airbrush to add a bit of verdigris "green" at the waterline and a few patches of "dark green grunge" here and there. Do the math and you'll see how small scale plates are at 1:64, then figure out how many you're going to have to apply to cover the bottom! Look at the pictures of coppered bottoms above. There's no place for shiny copper on a ship's bottom. Even if the plates are shiny from the mill, in the time it would take to hang them, they'd be well on their way to acquiring an oxidized surface. 
     
    If you aren't familiar with "scale viewing distance," consider the U.S. Navy's"mil spec" contract standard for Navy ship models: "Generally, all items on the prototype twelve inches or larger for 1:96 scale (six inches or larger for 1:48 scale) will be reproduced." [Nautical Research Guild - Article - Specifications for Construction of Exhibition Models of U.S. Naval Vessels (thenrg.org)] Your 1:64 scale is roughly in the middle between 1:96 and 1:48, so, on your model, a good rule of thumb would be that any detail nine inches or larger should be reproduced and any detail smaller than nine inches may be omitted. Obviously, at 1:64 scale, the edge of a 1/16" thick copper plate isn't going to be possible to reproduce, or to see if you could reproduce it.
     
    Myself, I wouldn't go crazy trying to lay a "checkerboard" patchwork of differently colored copper plates on a bottom. I suppose there are times when a vessel is hauled and a few random sheets were replaced during repairs and they'd "stand out" color-wise, but I've seen my share of coppered bottoms freshly hauled out in the boatyards and, truth be told, they all have a uniform color appearance after they've been in the water a while. It takes a bit of time for them to develop that "copper green" look after the air gets to the copper.
     
    As Jaager noted, shellac is reversible with alcohol, but that doesn't mean it's not a messy job to be avoided. As with all finishing on a model, it is essential to do experimental examples of any coating before going forward on the model itself unless you are absolutely familiar with the technique, compatibility of materials, and environmental conditions. This is the best way to avoid ever having to refinish a hull! Take pieces of scrap planking stock (glue them up side by side even) and try various approaches until you get one that satisfies you. Your finished hull isn't the place to experiment.
     
    An airbrush is one tool investment that will kick your modeling abilities up a bunch of notches. It is an investment and there is a learning curve, but if you search for airbrush information on this forum, Kurt can give you all the information you'd ever need about purchasing an airbrushing set up and it doesn't have to put you in the poor house. Learning to use one really boils down to reading the manual and watching YouTube videos. You can use water sprayed on a piece of paper or cardboard to practice getting the hang of controlling the spray, then, when you feel confident, you can graduate to some watercolor and eventually to paint. The airbrush is a very versatile instrument, but for modeling purposes, we generally only avail ourselves of the basics. Think of it as a refillable spray can that will pay for itself in what you'd spend on "rattle cans" with clogged nozzles and wasted paint. The other advantage of an airbrush is that it is a lot easier to obtain a perfect finish than using a brush because learning to use a brush well is apparently more difficult for most. A fine brushed finish will require multiple thin coats, each applied to perfection and very lightly sanded between coats as needed. You have to wait for each coat to dry. An air brush will let you build up fast-drying thin coats in far less time.
     
     
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