rybakov

Thank you Rich and Marc,
 
speaking in football/soccer language: I believe in a 1-2-3 System ...
 
... one month blockade duty off Nantes or Brest makes more damage to the ship than two hostile encounters with three french ships ...
 
XXXDAn

And once things move ...
 
... keep things moving :-)
 
Set up both second backstays ...
 

 
... now just missing the breast backstay.
 

 
And holy Impatience, wanted to see the anchors in place ...
 

 
... the lead is thrown ...
 

 
... and *enjoy*
 

 
XXXDAn

Folks -
 
I'll make one last pitch for the absence of the gun lids... 
 
Here are some credible sources all piled up:
 
Michel Felice Corné 1803 - commissioned by Commodore Preble:
 

 
Thomas Birch 1813 Constitution vs Guerriere - Based on interviews with participants:
 

 
"Hull" model 1812 - built by the crew and presented to Isaac Hull:
 

 
 
Michel Felice Corné 1812 Constitution vs Guerriere - commissioned by captain Hull and supervised by his purser Thomas Chew:

 
Nicholas Pocock Constitution vs Java - based on sketches by Lt Buchanan of HMS Java
 

 
Thomas Birch United States vs Macedonian - based on interviews with participants:
 

 
Now we can probably dig through each of these representations and find various flaws and discrepancies, but we can't dispute that ALL of these have something in common - no gun port lids.  Constitution, United States, Guerriere, Java, Macedonian... All shown without lids by different artists after consultation with crew and battle veterans.  We have log entries and journal accounts of water pouring in through the gun ports in heavy weather... But how can we modern folk reconcile the idea that these ships would sail without gun port lids and be so endangered on a voyage?
 
I think the absence of gun port lids is a vestige of the era when this class of ship had open gun decks - at least very open space along the waist - which were generally treated as "weather" decks.  It was common to not have lids on ports along the open waist and many of these ships would only have them  mounted on the most forward ports to minimize wetness from a plunging bow.  Sometimes the sternmost would also have protection against following seas, but all others would be without lids.  It was no big deal for the water to slosh in one side, across the deck, and out the other side and/or out the scuppers.  There are certainly examples of frigates being fitted with lids, but likely at the discretion of the captain.  We know from log entries that Preble had carpenters add lids during his tenure (which implies, of course, that none were there before).  The American spar deck frigates represented a transition away from the open waist and the utilization of the top deck for more guns and ship handling space.  The great success they had in the War of 1812 spurred the other naval powers to evolve their frigates away from the smaller open waisted types and into the big frigate era.  As the gun decks became more commonly enclosed, the gun port lids became more standard.
 
I certainly understand that most of my fellow modelers will not follow me down this path, but I would think that most would at least appreciate my reasoning and respect the fact that I'm basing my own representation on credible contemporary sources - specifically the Michel Felice Corné paintings and the Hull model - however illogical that may seem!
 
I'm glad that my build has inspired some deeper explorations of some elements of the great ship that defy conventional thinking... Stay tuned for the yellow stripe!
 
Thanks to all for the engaging discussion.
 
Evan

I just found a first contemporary hint to this topic:   In the book "Nicolas Pocock" from David Cordingly (Conways) there is an interesting remark on page 76.   Topic is the painting "The Defense at the Battle of the First of June" and it reports about the historical facts behind:   "Midshipman Dillon observed that,  ´The lower deck was at times so completely filled with smoke that we could scarcely distinguish each other, and the guns were so heated that, when fired, they nearly kicked the upper deck beams`"   As source is given: "Diary of William Dillon, midshipman in the Defense, Quoted in Warner, The Glorious First of June, p. 79" 
Looks to be from Warner, Oliver, The Glorious First of June, London 1961   So perhaps really more than only an invention of modern dramatisation?   Cheers, Daniel

I just came across this thread and I believe that hot guns jumped more than cold ones because of the heat transfer from the gun to the powder. Heated black powder will burn faster than when at normal temperatures, and so will modern smokeless powders, some types more then others. In the past I was very seriously involved in firearms marksmanship with several different firearms including black powder cartridge rifles. I noticed that my points of impact were always higher on the target, and sometimes that the recoil was noticeably heavier, on hot days than on cold days or when I left the ammo on the shooting bench in the sun, heating it. The same effect when applied to muzzle-loading cannon seems quite reasonable to me and the most likely primary cause of heavier recoil from hot guns.

I believe the second hypoyhesis is better as if you have a three point attachment
you can keep the boat steadier against rolling and pitching.
I came across a drawing (painting), I can't recall where that illustrates this perfectly.
 
 
Zeh

I believe the second hypoyhesis is better as if you have a three point attachment
you can keep the boat steadier against rolling and pitching.
I came across a drawing (painting), I can't recall where that illustrates this perfectly.
 
 
Zeh

Here are a couple pictures of the model Fly by Oidtman.
The first shows how he rigged the way he envisioned a boat to be lifted.
Both a stay and a yard are being used. (I may be wrong about the stay because of the second picture).

 
The second is more complicated, but it involves moving the boat to port using both main and fore yards
and all the tackles that are part of the whole process.

 
Not clearly shown is the fact that both yards would have to be lashed on starboard to counteract the force being carried on the post side.

As the hatches are in the midship plane I would assume that some sort of stay tackle would be used
as in this plate fron Steel's The art of Rigging
 
 
 
Hope it helps
 
Zeh

What do those guys and you have in common?
 

 
... ?!? ...
 

 
-No food for the wicked ;-)
 
Yet :-)
 
XXXDAn

Hello Dafi
 
According to John Masefield's "Sea life in Nelsons time"  the breech ropes were doubled for a general fleet engagement, as the recoil
would get more violent as the guns heated being continuouly fired.
 
I wonder what you'll find next to amaze us

Hi Daniel
 
Two possible explanations:
 
Powder burning produces gases and heat. It's that heat that makes the gases expand and increases pressure within
the barrel eventually expeling the ball.
the metal of the barrel absorbs some of that heat. As it gets warmer and warmer less and less heat it absorbs leaving more
to expand the gases leading to increased pressure higher muzzle velocity and higher recoil.
 
That's one
 
Another would be that as the gun heats the outside diameter increases and the inner diameter decreases as the muzzle wall
expands and you have a tighter fit with less pressure loss.
 
 
But sincerely....... I really don't know
 
 
All the best
Zeh

Hello Dafi
 
According to John Masefield's "Sea life in Nelsons time"  the breech ropes were doubled for a general fleet engagement, as the recoil
would get more violent as the guns heated being continuouly fired.
 
I wonder what you'll find next to amaze us

Hello Dafi
 
According to John Masefield's "Sea life in Nelsons time"  the breech ropes were doubled for a general fleet engagement, as the recoil
would get more violent as the guns heated being continuouly fired.
 
I wonder what you'll find next to amaze us

Here we went on in the lower deck, getting tighter ...
 
...first table dummies ...
 

 
... followed by some real model making ...
 

 
... first sitting trials ...
 

 
... and tight we go.
 

 

 

 
bom apetite! 
 
XXXDAn

And more tempting as the 1803 chain irons are the 1765 ones: same length but two pieces more!

Testing the lengths, carefully remembering that the outer ones are longer.



... homeopathic doses of solder ...



... degreased the wire, first soldering the single rings, then joining them on the central part, the flux with the solder embedded, small touch with the hot iron ...



... and the same game with the dead eye and the triple pack ...



... adjusting over the edge of a blade ...



... and comparison: bottom as cut, then solderd and on top adjusted. Inside length 4 mm :-)



A small jack done for thinning the deadeyes ...



... and painting them with casein paint to give a better to scale wood appearance than the original wood ...



... put on place ...



... made the batten to cover the channels ...



... and painted and rusted.





And here the comparison :-)



Cheers, Daniel

the chess table cells 1х1м  

Sooooooo after some time finally managed to do some new bricotage ...
 
... fitted the deadeyes ...
 

 
... used the revolutionairy Double-Twin-Super-Drive-Technology for grinding the needle heads ...
 

 
... put the batten ...
 

 
... and it looks even neater than the bits on my Vic :-)
 

 
Too take this back added some paint and rust ...
 

 

 

 

 
... and tomorrow once the paint is well dried, I can take it back a tad and do the finetuning :-)
 
Lieber Gruß, Daniel

continued
 

Good afternoon misters
I am sorry for my English пешу through the translator
I want to give you on court furniture for the big cabin
While only a table and chairs маштаб 1:48 and прцесс manufacturing
Material chairs самшыт
I will accept any criticism
Anatoly

Because its not on the Model Expo site yet....After many requests here it is by chapter

 

Introduction 

 

Chapter 1 

 

Chapter 2 

 

Chapter 3 

 

Chapter 4 

 

Chapter 5 

 

Chapter 6

 

Chapter 7 

 

Chapter 8

 

Chapter 9

 

Chapter 10

 

Chapter 11

 

Chapter 12

 

Chapter 13

 

Chapter 14 

 

Chapter 15

 

Chapter 16

 

Chapter 17

 

Chapter 18

 

Chapter 19

 

   THE END    

So, you are new to wooden ship building and are wondering where to start to learn the terminology, methodology and all that sort of stuff.  Don’t feel bad – it is intimidating at times and can seem like a foreign language!
 
Figuring out where to start to try and understand the ins and outs is a challenge.  There are, to be sure, many exceptional books that describe the process of building a model.  Some, more than others, relate the process back to the days of old when a shipwright worked as much from intuition and experience as from formal plans and blueprints.  To understand how the shipwrights of old built a wooden ship is an interesting (and sometimes confusing) journey.  The brief list of references provided below are not intended to cover the total breadth of shipbuilding, but rather to allow you to sample the flavors and textures over a period of about 120 years.  There are, to be sure, older references, and there are newer ones, but these will place you in the heart of the most heavily modeled time periods.
 
The following list of downloadable resources is far from complete – in fact, it is only a beginning.  There are so many more!  It is also, and for this I apologize up front, nearly exclusively in the English language.  You see, I don’t read nor speak anything other than English and some teenagerisms (and a smattering of baby talk), so I really couldn’t say whether a French or Dutch document was describing building a boat or baking a cake, so to avoid leading you too far astray I have steered away from those resources.  I do have a few which, if you speak the language, I will gladly share.
 
So – in no particular order, and for your reading pleasure, here is what I would consider to be the Introduction to Shipbuilding 101 list of readings (all are no longer protected by copyright).
 
David Steel - The shipwright's vade-mecum (1805)
http://archive.org/details/shipwrightsvade00steegoog
 
John Fincham - An introductory outline of the practice of ship-building (1825)
http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/009723747
 
John W. Griffiths - Treatise on marine and naval architecture; or, Theory and practice blended in ship building (1854)
http://archive.org/details/treatiseonmarin00grifgoog
 
----- The ship-builder's manual: and nautical referee (1856)
http://books.google.com/books?id=el9JAAAAYAAJ
 
------ The Progressive Ship Builder, Volume 1 (1875)
http://books.google.com/books?id=IoJIAAAAYAAJ
 
------ The progressive ship builder, Volume 2 (1876)
http://books.google.com/books?id=CIJIAAAAYAAJ
 
Richard Montgomery Van Gaasbeek - A practical course in wooden boat and ship building (1919)
http://books.google.com/books?id=MvsOAAAAYAAJ
 
Charles G. Davis - The building of a wooden ship (1918)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Zu4OAAAAYAAJ
 

I just wanted to advise users of Google books for pdf downloads that I've found some books that weren't available for download on the English language Google site were available on the German language site and probably on other language sites as well.  

This post is not intended as a definitive discussion on the subject and there are other options used in the real world.  It simply provides some background information and is an update of a post I placed on MSW 1.0.
Even in modern naval and merchant ship seamanship practice, the state/look of the ship depends on her current employment.  If at sea, ropes, tails and fag-ends are left in a secure (won't move around) but ready to use state.  In harbour, especially if under their lordship's eyes, most ropes are made up to look neat and tidy (exceptions might be the boat rope etc if at anchor or at a buoy).
In the days of sail, there were many lines and ropes used, and most running rigging had a tail that needed to be secured for ready use and/or be presented in a more tidy manner when in harbour / not underway.
When making up rope/lines ready for use, they are either coiled or flaked out.  The greatest care is taken to prevent two things: the rope/line will run out freely without snagging, and minimising the chance of injury to crew and equipment.
The left/right twist of a rope needs to be considered when making-up a coil.  Try making up a rope, especially natural fibre ropes, against their lay and you will soon get snarls/kinks.  Once made-up, the coil can be put down opposite to its lay, but the direction of the lay of the coil (rope itself) will not change, only the aspect/perspective of the lay as you look at it.
Short story depending on the aspect you wish to model – steady state at sea or in harbour, or preparing for getting under way, will determine how to depict the ropes.
 
Flaking
Flaking a rope is to arrange it on the deck ready for easy use or made up as a decorative finish for the rope while in harbour etc.
 
The Flemish Flake (or Flemish Coil) provides an attractive, neat way of temporarily stowing the end of a rope.  A Flemish flake/coil, also called a cheesed coil, is a flat coil of rope with the end in the centre and the turns lying against, without riding over, each other.  Flemish coils were, and still are, used by the 'Grey Funnel Line' (Navy) and by yachties when they want everything to look especially neat and tidy.  See:
http://ikstremdom.is-a-chef.com/outdoor/rope/animatedknots/flemish/index.htm or
http://www.animatedknots.com/flemish/index.php?Categ=ropecare&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

From: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/dsL-IPHIfHWmxdkiOjOBLg
 
For larger ropes where the tail end is very long, an alternate pattern can be made-up by first laying the rope down flat on the deck, in long concentric loops.  Take a bight (all loops) from the end opposite to the direction of the standing end, flip and draw it across itself to form the figure eight (as shown).  The finished result is represented below in a more 'artistic' display which does not show the standing end.

From: http://www.seattleartmuseum.org/getout/artdescriptions_2011.asp
This decorative rope finish is not to be confused with a working flake of a similar name 'the figure 8 flake'.  See: http://www.animatedknots.com/fig8flake/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
 
Another working flake is the zigzag or snaking flake also called 'faking' depending on whom you talk to, and is often used where you need the rope to run out without catching, snubbing or otherwise.  This is normally only used when the rope is being, or about to be worked.

 
For working with running rigging, a more modern practice is to use the Ballantine Coil for the halyards when a sail is raised.  With masts that may rise over 100 feet above the water, the halyards are quite long requiring very careful coiling to keep the lines organised so they will run free if needed and not become tangled.  The Ballantine Coil builds a stable coil that is compact and stable.

See http://captnmike.com/2011/10/03/coiling-line-using-the-ballantine-coil-on-the-adventuress/ for details on how to make this coil up.
 
Line Coils

The tail end of a rope is always coiled with the direction of the twist.  If the rope is the tail end of a halyard or such, which is to be belayed, the loops are started about half an arm’s length (adjust to scale) along the standing end from the belaying pin.  Once the loops have been formed, a bight is taken in the standing-end, drawn through the top of the eye in the loops, and hung from the belaying pin, cleat or staghorn as shown in the following links.
http://ikstremdom.is-a-chef.com/outdoor/rope/animatedknots/coilattached/index.htm  or
http://www.animatedknots.com/coilattached/index.php?Categ=ropecare&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
 
Some modellers prefer to form these coils off the model and hang it from the belaying pin which, at scale, covers the securing knot/line on the belaying pin which masks whether it has been formed on or off the model.  As I prefer to be authentic, I prefer to form these on the model just as in real life using a few rigging tools.  This should not done until all rigging (associated with these belaying pins/fixtures) has been completed and the final tensions applied to the ropes.  Secure the rope-ends as you would in real life to that fitting (pin, cleats etc), dab it with a touch of diluted PVA glue, then form the loops over the end of one tool.  Use the other tool or a pair of tweezers to
pull the bight through and loop it over the pin going to the side of the tool on which the loops have been formed.
 
Some associated useful links include:
Knots:
http://www.animatedknots.com/indexboating.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
Whippings:
http://www.animatedknots.com/indexropecare.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com or
http://ikstremdom.is-a-chef.com/outdoor/rope/animatedknots/sailmakers/index.htm
Splices:
http://www.animatedknots.com/indexsplicing.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com or
http://ikstremdom.is-a-chef.com/outdoor/rope/animatedknots/backspliceropecare/index.htm

Hi Daniel
 
I really don't have any answers to your questions, but...
I found this pictures on the Museu da Marinha site that might be of some help
 
By the way the scale is 1/20, it's on the first photo but probably too small to read
 
Hope it may help
 
all the best
Zeh