harvey1847

Hi Daniel,
nice to see that you started your build of the Principe De La Paz. I wish you all the best for your build.

The pdf´s attached are only the progress till now.
 
I have drawn 16 water lines separate 3 feet parallel to the top of the keel so I have 16 points to check on every frame. One frame takes me about two hours and when I get bored I draw other parts of the sheer plan.
 
The widths and moulded widths are from the 1784 Joseph Romero Fernandez De Landa vademecum. It also includes all the different pieces necessary to build ships of 100, 74, 64 and frigates of 34, minor frigates and boats and more. This vademecum is quite cheap (12€) and “rough”. It has no half breadth plan or sheer plan nor a general body plan for the different types of ships. So… you have to kind of “invent” how the hek all the pieces were fixed together. You have also to decide the scarfs on the pieces.
 
The book was intended to show the pieces to be cut on the forest with extra wood to drag them to the shipyard, especially huge pieces like the stem.
 
I am also using the book “The ship of 68 guns from 1752” (Isidro Rivera 2012 ISBN 13: 978-84-615-3821-8 (Spanish, no English edition). Pretty useful in order to follow a hypothesis of construction, for example the keel. This book shows how a ship is built following the rules of the English shipwrights. Retamosa follows the rules of the French but I can “extrapolate” some concepts. I have contacted with the author to see if he can clarify me lots of doubts about. Hope to meet him in a month or so…  
 
For example the scarfs on the keel were horizontal not vertical like on the HMS Triton or the HMS Victory. It has also 2 shoe keels. Slightly differences that have to be checked to end with a true model from that period.
 
If any of you have some info about the keel or the things I have wrote do not hesitate and post it here. Would be very apreciate it.
 
Enjoy the week!
 
 
Daniel.
pdf_30_10_14_cant fr.pdf
pdf_30_10_14_cant fr HB.pdf

Yes indeed, BUT there is something spectacular on shots like "02" and "05" (specially the "scafolding" holding the ship). I wouldn´t mind to go that way. Specially with that dummy piece of wood which is more evidence on pic "04".
 
Were this model intended to be on a shelve on the Admiralty rooms or were made to show the cadets or the man of war how these ships actually function?
 
Here for example, I do not know how many times I have posted this shot but in my oppion It´s the "ultimate" extreme of what a POF model should be. (I know yours It´s a POB one) I am now much concern about plank on frames models but I´ll probably shift to pob´s on my next project.
 

 
Good luck Jack, and thanks for the research photos!
 
Daniel.

A brife introduction and some thoughts…
 
While trying to put together all the info and starting the new log here I searched for the CD of the MNM yesterday and the date wrote on it was January 2012. Therefore I started this project more or less around those days.
 
MNM is the acronym for Naval Museum of Madrid. They used to be able to sell you plans and prints for one euro plus two euros for the CD but they do not do it anymore. Something that I don´t understand at all. It is totally a shame because we have an enormous Public Record Office with thousands of files and prints already scanned that should be able to be consulted by all and specially the enthusiast modelers around the World and here in Spain. It should be like the National Naval Museum in UK for example. It was once but not anymore.
 
The shipwright was Julian Martin De Retamosa (1747 -1827) one of the latest shipwrights or the Real Armada and known for building the best ships of the Real Navy in this last period. Spain had lost years ago the supremacy of the seas and was no able to build ships of the line at the rate of other navies do like French or specially the Royal Navy which has become the first world power. Never the less from 1790 to 1800 only three 74´s and seven frigates were built.
 
The print I have is dated at Madrid on 1803 and as you can see the name is not on the list above so I assume it is a draft that never went to a good end. That´s what encourage me more, to actually build a ship that is unique and do it totally from scratch. The plans and the model.
 
Since English it´s not my mother tongue I am writing on word, then copy and pasting. A single post takes me a while. I´ll be updating the log from time to time trying to put all the info the best I can but trying to explain the way I draw the draft and no boring you guys with lots of literature.
 
Wish me luck!
 
Daniel.

The pdf´s attached are only the progress till now.
 
I have drawn 16 water lines separate 3 feet parallel to the top of the keel so I have 16 points to check on every frame. One frame takes me about two hours and when I get bored I draw other parts of the sheer plan.
 
The widths and moulded widths are from the 1784 Joseph Romero Fernandez De Landa vademecum. It also includes all the different pieces necessary to build ships of 100, 74, 64 and frigates of 34, minor frigates and boats and more. This vademecum is quite cheap (12€) and “rough”. It has no half breadth plan or sheer plan nor a general body plan for the different types of ships. So… you have to kind of “invent” how the hek all the pieces were fixed together. You have also to decide the scarfs on the pieces.
 
The book was intended to show the pieces to be cut on the forest with extra wood to drag them to the shipyard, especially huge pieces like the stem.
 
I am also using the book “The ship of 68 guns from 1752” (Isidro Rivera 2012 ISBN 13: 978-84-615-3821-8 (Spanish, no English edition). Pretty useful in order to follow a hypothesis of construction, for example the keel. This book shows how a ship is built following the rules of the English shipwrights. Retamosa follows the rules of the French but I can “extrapolate” some concepts. I have contacted with the author to see if he can clarify me lots of doubts about. Hope to meet him in a month or so…  
 
For example the scarfs on the keel were horizontal not vertical like on the HMS Triton or the HMS Victory. It has also 2 shoe keels. Slightly differences that have to be checked to end with a true model from that period.
 
If any of you have some info about the keel or the things I have wrote do not hesitate and post it here. Would be very apreciate it.
 
Enjoy the week!
 
 
Daniel.
pdf_30_10_14_cant fr.pdf
pdf_30_10_14_cant fr HB.pdf

Thanks so much for the nice comments Daniel and Nigel and also for all the likes.
 
@Daniel
In terms of this Triton build the most are means the double frame is much easier than the single frame. But I believe that isn't so. I think single frame have a great vantage, to get the right shape of the hull is much easier than in double frame. Although single frame is more time consuming. In relation of the optic I'm with you.

hi all
its about time for an update on the cross section progress. 
unfortunately i got carried away with unbridled enthusiasm and forgot to take any photos of the completed lower deck.
however some of the work can still be seen, as ive left some deliberate gaps in the planking.
photos show current state of play , just about to start the gun deck , and this time i will remember to take some photos!
 
been busy this morning cutting up some holly and boxwood.
 
also purchased a couple of 1mm 3 flute milling cutters. i will need these when i get round to making the ladders, plus they will come in useful generally!
 
might just get some in 1.5,2 2.5 and 3mm to cover a few eventualitys
 
thats all for now folks
 
 
cheers....mick

Hi Guys
 
It's done, all the frames are fitted and even the starboard side is a bit sanded.
 

 
The next step is sanding, sanding sanding,..........oh I hate it.
 

Hello everyone and thank you all for your best wishes, support and all the likes.
We are still under the weather with this flu like condition but we keep trucking.
 
Okay, I took one pic of the disaster with the dingy. I have now two broken ribs and am making plans to remake this bloom'n thing.  However, being the stubborn Dutchman I am going to finish this one even if it kills me, not really, it's just a figure of speech 
 
I cut the frames from a boxwood plank that I sanded down to 1 mm with the vertical grains on the bottom side.  I was hoping that by being extremely careful they wouldn't snap on me till the bottom planking was on.  Well, no such luck.
 
What I'll do for the next one is sand the boxwood plank down to 1/2 mm or so and glue them together 90 degrees opposed to each other.  That way the frames can support each other.  I guess i could run out to the hobby store and buy another sheet of 1 mm plywood for $20 bucks.  No, I'll play with this method, it looks much better from solid wood instead of seeing the plies and I'll have a nice glue surface too.
 
So, I'll look at this thing as my practice piece.  I can even use it as a spare dingy on the display board.  Add some damage to it and claim it's waiting for repairs    I need to do the stern planking also a little different at the keel.  
Who would have thought that such a little thing can give you such grief.  But then again, I'm doing it the unorthodox way.
 

Well, this shows a little better then half of the bottom planking glued on.  What I'll do with this one is make two new ribs with the "new" method and glue them in.  I used 1 X 3 mm planks, soaked them in water, shaped them on the frames and let them dry.  Then glued them om and after the glue had cured I sanded the planks down to 1/2 mm.  That way they would lay down nicely for the lapstrake.  They do look rather convincing. 
 
Cheers,

Hoi Carl, I guess vanity set in and shame   No, my friend, I'll make a picture of it with an explanation.  I really should star over again and may just do it but using a different method making the frames.  
I'm stubborn enough to just do that.  Tomorrow, with an explanation and pics, promise - - - provided I survive this crazy bug.
 
Right now I'm battling a flue like thing that drug me down.  I caught it from Gwen, naturally - - it's her fault 
 
By the way, all you y'all - attention please - - - I visited the Urology Center this morning and received the results of the three pieces of tissue from the bladder for the biopsy.  He even included one sample of the muscle.  The verdict - - drumroll please - - - all three are negative, NO benign tissue!!!!!        
No cancer anymore!!!!  
 
Cheers,
 
 

Ok, I added the marks on the sternpost by narrowing them down they fitted. I omitted one mark as the gudgeon will cover it.  I'm not happy with how they turned out compared to the stempost marks. It was hard to maneuver being right handed, the hull got in the way 
 

 
Making a new sternpost is out of the question I'm affright ,....
 
Remco

I think the widest marks were placed with the letters tight against each other, as the example from the NMM. These were from the wreck of the Royal George, sunk in 1782.

Thanks all.
 
Cog, I used a tripod and the timer to take that picture.
Dave, the carving was done with small chisels of different sizes.
 
Druxey, I was planning to tonight but ran into a problem. While marking their position I saw the stern post has the same with as the largest XIV and XIII marking. So adding them here will look odd. In the picture they are roughly penciled in but the final markings will take the full with of the stern post. I'd better leave them off
 
 

 

 
Remco

Hopefully not to confuse the situation,  But here is a better image of Cheerfuls stem parts.  You are using the outboard plan.  This is from the inboard draft.  I have seen this arrangement on two other cutters but sadly these details are not shown on most cutter drafts.  The Alert is much younger also so this may not even be applicable.   
 
But I wanted to mention how all of the lines on the draft you posted are dashed for these elements.  On the inboard sheet however it shows the dashed lines as if they were parts cut for the other side of the stem only.  Meaning that the stem was intended to be cut in one piece and the two other elements used for the boxing joint and apron on the other side only.  That is ...if I am reading the draft correctly.   It seems unlikely that they could find such a large piece to make the stem like that.   So I agree with Ed that in all likelihood it depended on what wood they had on hand and probably ended up with a  much different "made up"  stem that may not have matched any of these choices.
 
So I simplified it a great deal for my project because I dont find all of these elements an attractive addition to a ship model anyway.  Its too distracting and busy.  In fact....you never see the separate pieces on almost all of the contemporary cutter models I have seen.  The stem is always one piece down to the boxing joint.
 

Here is the modified drawing.
 

Thanks to all for visiting and your likes.
 
We made some progress today and I earned a Purple Heart !
 
I cemented all the frames to the keel this morning, then had some lunch while it was busy curing.
After lunch the frames were rock-solid on the keel and looked like they all lined up okay.  So I removed the paper locator strips and cleaned the frames up.  In doing so I managed to cut a nice groove in my thumb, O negative blood gushing all over the place - - - not really, just joshing yuns 
 
I found a left over strip of 1 X 1 mm strip from the deck slats for the O19 and cut a small piece to use as the keelson.
 
It's still rough but that's intentional.  I have to put the planking on first before I can do some serious cleaning and shaping the inside.  I would really like to but-plank the hull but I guess it should be klinker or lapstrake.  That makes it more difficult to final shape the planking.  I have pre-faired the frames by eye before cementing them to the keel but may have to be faired a little more.  I'll check tomorrow and see how it looks.  The frames are rather delicate for fairing without support.  I guess that's where the plug method works good but hey, I wanted to give this a try and see if I could do it this way.
 
Alright, that's a worry for tomorrow.  I'll figure out something.
 
Here are a few pics to show yuns today's work.  The first 4 pics are the frames in the process of being cemented to the frame and viewed from different angles.  The last 4 show the "naked" frames after they are cemented and roughly cleaned.  The stern piece still needs to be cemented on end preparations made for the rudder hinges.  That in itself will be a challenge.
 

 

 

 

 

That light colored slat is the keelson and that red stain to the right on the build board is my precious blood.  No, it doesn't hurt, only when I get acetone or MEK on it 
 

 

 

 
Cheers.
 

That Cheerful draught is unusual: if it was drawn that way, it must have been done like that. However, I'd say that was most unusual. The strength of the joints would be compromised and more bolts would need removing to replace the forefoot or gripe piece. The attached image is rather small, but demonstrates my point. (If you click on it, it will enlarge.) Note the keel joint at around station 6, aft.

Daniel asked me to show how I get the different center points and radii for the construction of an frame. Please be in mind that there are a lot of  other steps necessary before you can start with the frame construction.

First let me refer to two articles which I think that they are very helpful in understanding the lines of an original drawing
1. David Antscherl: Understanding Eighteenth-Century Admirality Drafts, Nautical Research Journal Vol. 52, No. 2 Summer 2008
2. David White: Understandig Ships' Draughts, Model Shipwright No. 48 ff.
 
I made some screen shots during the construction of the main frame of the cutter.

After creating the "Breath Extreme" line in the Body-Plan, I define the Center Points for the Lower Height of Breath.


Next I determine the radii of the arcs, which don't have the center points in the original drawing (most of this arcs were drawn with French Curves).
The list gives the different values:
Lower height of breath: 72.53 first:          260.35 second:    straight third:         -319.9  

 
Next I calculate the center point of the first curve: I draw an arc with the radius 260.35 from the endpoint of my help line and a radius from the center point of the lower height of breath withe the radius 260.35 - 72.53 = 187.82. Then I draw a line from this center point to the center point of the Lower height of breath and stretchit to the circle of the Lower height of breath. Now you can draw a circle with the first radius.

 
Now I repeat these steps for creating the center point of the third curve. I draw to circles with the determined radius, one from the keel and one from en point of the help line.

 
Next I draw a straight line to both circles. There exist an Autocad function to do this, so nothing to construct for me .

 
At last I draw the frame. I start at the Lower height of breath. Then I draw the upper height of breath and complete the frame with the other arcs and straights.


I hope that this small description is helpful for someone.

Thanks everyone for your interest, encouragement and likes.
 
This morning I cut-out the frames for the dingy.  So far so good.  I may have to remake two but first I have to make sure.
 
My dear bride Gwen took ill so I may have to be a little helper to her, the poor thing.
 
I'll try gluing the frames to the keel tomorrow and see how it's shaping up.  They are still oversize on the inside, waiting for the planking.  After the planking is on then I can trim the inside of the frames, I figured out how I can do that. 
As long as the end product looks okay then I'm happy.  
 

 
Cheers,

Thanks Joe, Vivian & Mark. Indeed I used the knurling attachment from Shereline, it gives a good grip and a adds a nice touch.
 
Port side treenailed
 

 
And draught marks added, they won't be painted red as they should as this might be to distracting. They are just 3 mm, 1/8" high
 

 

 
Remco

I like it
 
Maybe a little late with my advise, but at this scale you can heat bend small strips of boxwood into the shape of the frames. I used a plug and added the planks first and added the frames afterwards. Working with a plug gives a stable base to add those delicate parts on. Especially in the beginning there is not much structure to keep everything in place.
 

 

 
Remco

Hello all y'all and thank you for visiting and all your likes.
 
I have been thinking - - - I know, that can get you into trouble    So I thought why make a plug first for the dingy and then build that dingy over it.  Seems like double the work 
Sooooooh - - - I thought - - why not build the dingy plank on frame    That's why it took me a few days of contemplation and hair pulling.  But so what, let's give this hair-brained idea a try.  If it doesn't work out I can always go back to the plug method.
 
Okay, I cut a 1.3 mm plank from a chunk of boxwood, sanded it down to about 1 mm and glued a copy of the keel print to it with some diluted school glue.
Next I took a small pice of 1/2 inch particle board and carved a groove in it to accommodate the keel.  I then cemented 4 90 degree brass angle pieces to it next to the keel to keep it 90 degrees to the build dock.  I also drew the locator lines on it for the frames.
 
Next I cut the paper frames from the drawing and glued them to the 1 mm boxwood plank and cut them out.  I sanded and filed everything nicely to the lines.  I cut grooves into the keel where the frames are going to be.
The plan is to hand cut the insides of these blank bulkheads to make the frames.  They are too delicate for the Proxxon jig saw.  First I planned in planking the model and then cutting the bulkheads into frames but getting access to them would be problematic.
I already cit the number 1 frame by using my trusty jeweler's coping saw that I still have from when I was a young man way back in Holland.
Seems to work fine and will continue with the rest of the frames.
 
Right now I plan on cementing everything together with gel super glue and hope it'll last.
 
This method may be good practice for when I start with the VOC Jacht in a lamp, which will only be slightly smaller.
 
Okay then, here are a few pics of my efforts so far.
 

Keel assembly.  I made it all out of one piece, I may be crazy but not stupid    The keel is purposely slightly higher but will be trimmed after the planking is completed.  This is nummer 2.
 

This shows the build-dock with the keel stop and 90 degree angle pieces to keep the keel steady and at 90 degrees to the dock.  Yep, not very big isn't it?  The keel you see here is nummer uno and reject.
 

Here is the keel placed into the groove and ready for the frames.
 

This then shows all the future frames.  You may see the pencil outlines for them.  I do plan to cement small pieces of boxwood between the frames yet for added strength.  To ensure proper alignment to the keel vertically and horizontally I plan to use a small steel block and a string along the centerline.  I'm not too concerned about it being off fractions of mm's.
I do plan on installing a few "ceiling" planks to the bottom of the dingy. 
 
Cheers,
 
 

Hi Daniel,
 
It sounds great your new project, very nice ship. I believe it must participated at the battle of Trafalgar if it existed, but that isn't so. But this is really only a conjecture.
I hope your Triton build to go further and you can show us some new photos soon.

Hello hello and happy 352 days ahead!!
 
Thanks Guy I hope so...
 
Finally I have glued the double ribbands to the ends of the frames. The hull feels now like a complete piece of cherry wood. Sure I’m going to be able to sand it properly. Before, the whole thing felt kind of weak but now with those momentary 4x4 beams … wow… It is robustly.
 
Here we go...
 

 

 

 

 

 

 
Now the scary thing… Sand it.
 
Before to glue the 4x4 beams I just checked the level of both lower deck clamps and surprising to me they are leveled! ... Three points for me !!!
 

 
Best wishes! (To me and the Triton)
 
Daniel.

Hi again!
 
I don´t Know what is happening with the camera but all the pics look kind of blurry... I´ll clean the lens.
 
Here are some pics of how I make the lower deck beams and my pdf.
 

 

 
I use a rasp to sand the up side and the down one.
 
Here´s the pdf. I have copied it from the plans are available.
 
lower deck CAMBER A4.pdf
 
 
Happy summer and July 4th ahead!
 
Daniel.