American sailing warships with no plans or records

[uss frolick]

Very little visually on the Do-Nothing-Congress of 1799. Perhaps there is tabular data in the Josiah Fox Papers at the Peabody And Essex Museum in Salem, Ma. You might want to check microfilms of Portsmouth newspapers, and with the Portsmouth Anthineum/ Portsmouth Marine Society.

 

There is a ton of information on the replacement-Congress of 1839, also built in Portsmouth, but with battle honors in Mexico in 1846 and against CSS Virginia in 1862. There is a beautiful Roux painting of the Portsmouth built USS Washington, 1815. Ditto USS Portsmouth, 1844, etc.

 

 

[uss frolick]

Here is a copy of a post I made in 2014, regarding the America:

 

"I found this xerox of a letter reprinted in an old book, "The History of the Navy Yard at Portsmouth, NH", page 15. I failed to preserve the author's name. Sorry. It is unclear whether John Paul Jones wrote the following or Capt. Robert Morris did later on, describing Jones's modifications to the America. Anyway, it describes in many ways the later Franklin/Washington Class 74's of 1813.

 

"It had been intended to make the waste shallow with narrow gangways; the quarterdeck and forecastle to be short, with a large stern gallery. Instead of this, the quarterdeck was made to project four feet before the main mast. The forecastle was also long, the waste deep, and the gangways broad, and of equal height with the forecastle and quarterdeck. There was just room for the boats on the gangways. A breastwork pierced with gun ports, but of suitable height for musketry, and of the same strength and nature as the sides of the ship, ran all around the quarterdeck, gangway and forecastles, so that all the cannon on the quarterdeck and forecastles,could have been fought on one side, an advantage possessed by no other ship of her time. Above the breastwork, the poop stood on pillars 18 inches long, and projected eight feet before the mizen mast.. Round the poop a folding breastwork was made of light material, and of a strength to resist grape shot; it was made to fold down on deck, and could be raised in a minute, so it was impossible to perceive that the America had a poop at a distance of a quarter mile. There were only single quarter galleries, and no stern gallery."

 

We know that Jones made many modifications to the Bon Homme Richard, but the number and nature were not recorded. I wonder if one or more of these mods had been made earlier to to the BHR. I will admit that I was never fully satisfied with Jean Boudriot's reconstruction. I think she looks too much like the pretty Indiaman Duc de Duras  than Jones's deadly all- black-painted commerce raider. But I digress ... Jones continues:

 

"The plan projected for the sculpture expressed dignity and simplicity. The head was a female figure crowned with laurels, the right arm raised, with forefinger pointing to heaven, as appealing to that high tribunal for the justice of the American cause. On the left arm was a a buckler with a blue ground and thirteen stars. The legs and feet of the figure were covered here and there with wreathes of smoke, to represent the dangers and difficulties of war. On the stern, under the windows of the great cabin, appeared two large figures in bas relief, representing Tyranny and Oppression, bound and biting the ground with the cap of liberty on a pole above their heads. On the back of the starboard quarter gallery, a large figure of Neptune, and on the larboard gallery, a large figure of Mars. Over the window of the great cabin, on the highest part of the stern, was a large medallion, on which was a figure representing Wisdom surrounded by danger With the bird of Athens over her head."

 

The book's author added, probably correctly:

 

"The danger surrounding Wisdom, was probably emblematically expressed by flashes of lightening."

 

Addendum: This could be the only WRITTEN description of a Continental Navy ship's carvings, aside from the drawings of the Frigates Raleigh, Hancock, etc.  I just love the description of Tyranny and Oppression "biting the ground"! "

[uss frolick]

I'm going to be signing off soon. Hurricane Irma is coming right at us!

[CharlieZardoz]

Ahhh be safe my friend!!

[Talos]

Though not necessarily America, there is the proposed 74-gun ship of 1777, which might help, at least  a starting point/inspiration.

 

Good luck, frolick! Stay safe!

 

 

[CharlieZardoz]

Consequently Talos ive been looking at the stern Chapelle has for the improved 1799 74 gun ship and thinking that most likely the United States looked similar at her launching. So going to try and modify the image to the Connie plan should lead to an interesting result.:)

Edited September 9, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[CaptArmstrong]

Be safe Frolick!

 

2 hours ago, CharlieZardoz said:

Consequently Talos ive been looking at the stern Chapelle has for the improved 1799 74 gun ship and thinking that most likely the United States looked similar at her launching. So going to try and modify the image to the Connie plan should lead to an interesting result.:)

Note that Chapelle inexplicably squished the quarter galleries on his plan of the class. The windows should reach as far down as the bottom edge of the rearmost gunport, as it does in both the doughty and fox plans (though doughty's was almost certainly the one used, fox's hull lines differed subtly). Though I reckon his outline of the United States' upper tier of galleries is pretty sensible. I've managed to make adjustments to other plans similar to making the quarter galleries deeper, so that might be something to consider before tackling additions. I assume you'll be reconstructing the transom as well, based on the shape of the 74's?

Edited September 9, 2017 by CaptArmstrong

[Seahawk1313]

Poor Old 1799 Congress, the "Dangerfield" of the Navy.  She did serve and cruise, both in the Barbary Wars and War of 1812, but no great battles.  She also went to China in 1819.  Working on Keel and Frames, Hope to do a building Blog...  Charlie the first painting, of the Constellation, do you know who painted it and when?    Also the painting of the launch of the Ship of the Line Washington, the frigate in the painting is most likely the Congress (in 1814). Not great, but shows 5 stern windows.  I have a description of what Rush envisioned for the  Congress stern, but I don't know if Deering followed it?- Hal     

[uss frolick]

Hal, tell us what Rush wanted for the Congress!

 

I haven't blown out to sea yet, and I still have power and the inter-webby.  

[Seahawk1313]

Hi Steve, What I have is from the Pennsylvania Historical Society.  Letter to Joshua Humphreys from William Rush, April 30, 1975.  It is his suggestions for the decorations for the six frigates.  They are all allegorical.  Congress:  "Congress being the great Legislative body on which the Majesty of the Revolution alone can rest, it ought to be represented by the Goddess of Wisdom, reclining upon a pedestal, supported by the Cardinal Virtues--on top of which should be a Number of Volumes, supposed to be the laws framed by the Legislature.  In her right hand should be the Constitution, Elevated so that the figure should be looking up to it- the Consequences flowingfrom the Law under a Wise Administration might be represented by the emblems of the Arts,Sciences,Industry,peace,plenty and independence,etc."  He wanted all the stern carving to have a similar theme.  The book on Rush's carving show some of his allegorical figures,  plus with the descriptions of the President and Constellation sterns, you can piece together what it may have looked like.  Not much, but at least something.  The figurehead was  also  the Goddess of Wisdom.  Rush carved the figurehead, but Deering carved the stern.  I just don't know if he followed Rush's idea.  Unless I find anything on Deering work I will do something Rush like.  I need to learn to scan and put stuff on here.  I haven't typed this much since I worked on my History MA many many years ago and my fingers don't work that great anymore .  Just a P.S.  In the letter he calls the Chesapeake the Revolution.  Batten down the Hatches and stay safe! Hal

[uss frolick]

I made naval-pattern deadlights after Charlie for all my windows. Reinforced plywood, they fit into the cills, and attached with multiple barrel-bolts. Over the years I have painted them on both sides, and cut small light/vision ports in them using a door-knob cutter. Even if the house blows away, they will still stay in place. The larger windows have naval upper and lower half-lid-and-bucklers-style ports, just like Constitution had. The only issues are storage, warpage, and their great weight, especially with the upstairs shutters.

[Deperdussin1910]

frolick...I hope all is well.

 

"The larger windows have naval upper and lower half-lid-and-bucklers-style ports, just like Constitution had."  If you ever get the chance, I'm sure several of us would enjoy seeing pictures of your naval preparations.

[Talos]

On 9/9/2017 at 5:26 PM, CaptArmstrong said:

Be safe Frolick!

 

Note that Chapelle inexplicably squished the quarter galleries on his plan of the class. The windows should reach as far down as the bottom edge of the rearmost gunport, as it does in both the doughty and fox plans (though doughty's was almost certainly the one used, fox's hull lines differed subtly). Though I reckon his outline of the United States' upper tier of galleries is pretty sensible. I've managed to make adjustments to other plans similar to making the quarter galleries deeper, so that might be something to consider before tackling additions. I assume you'll be reconstructing the transom as well, based on the shape of the 74's?

 

Yeah, he did. It's weird. I made this crop of the stern a while ago to illustrate something here and it still fits to repost.

[Talos]

It's not one of the frigates that we were talking about earlier, but I ran into this nice drawing of Hornet's stern carvings just now.

 

[Seahawk1313]

Talos- Hornet stern carvings are great!  Where did you find them?  1805 Hornet also had a removable Eagle figurehead, for harbor use, and a scroll from sea.  I wonder if the trailboards followed the style on the stern?  I may have the revisit my Hornet Brig.  Do you know who the carver was?  

  On the United States. I 'm not convinced she had double tier quarter galleries, most painting of her,early ones, seem to show single tier.  Chapelle  covered a lot,but wasn't correct all the time,  I guess he was human like the rest of us.LOL-Hal 

[Talos]

I found those on the Library of Congress' website, under "Sloop Hornet". The entry here lists Benjamin Lathrobe as the architect for it.

 

Here is the entry. You can download a higher resolution TIFF there. http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/95860806/

 

I also found this model frigate held by a Seamen's Bank in New York City. Dunno what she's supposed to be. Too many ports to be HMS Cyane or USS Boston. Could be New York? The half-built-up bulwarks are interesting. EDIT: Here is the link. Could be British of course, but... https://www.loc.gov/item/gsc1994004940/PP/

 

5a23235u.tif

Edited September 11, 2017 by Talos

[Seahawk1313]

Benjamin Henry Lathrobe was the Architect for the Federal Buildings in Washington D.C.  It would be interesting if he did the design of the carvings on the Hornet, and if they were used.   If they were I doubt he did the carving work.

The Seaman's Bank model of the Frigate isn't likely to be the New York as it was Spar Decked,  the model appears to have a step at the gangways like the Essex (as built).  The model looks in the style of the Essex.  It would be interesting to see if the Bank has more information on the model. - Hal     

[Talos]

You'll notice in the drawing of Hornet's stern, there is a pair of columns from the US Capitol Building above it. Dated 1811 and it looks like it was held in the files of the Architect of the Capitol and transferred to the LoC later on.

 

Re: the model, hmm, yeah, Essex is always a possibility.  I was thinking the same about the bank too.

 

Another random shot I found, a USN seaplane next to the 74-gun USS Granite State (ex-New Hampshire), along with the steam yacht USS Wasp (a training ship by this point). http://cdn.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/20200/20238v.jpg

 

With USS United States, I'm also reminded of these two http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2012645377/ https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2016/06/14/federal-frigate-early-views-united-states/

[Deperdussin1910]

talos...excellent information.  I really liked the period artist's sketch representing the 1813 colors of the USS United States! 

 

Birch, Thomas, 1779-1851, artist

Edited September 13, 2017 by Deperdussin1910

[uss frolick]

Wow great view of Hornet's stern, Talos!!

 

1811 was when Hornet was completely rebuilt, (as opposed to a fanciful post-war rebuild) so she must have wore those carvings during her battles.

 

I survived Irma, btw. Still no power, but I do have a working generator.

Edited September 13, 2017 by uss frolick

[uss frolick]

By the way, there is a contemporary drawing of Hornets eagle figurehead and tail-boards, not as beautifully drawn. The eagle looks about the same, but if I recall correctly, there is a drum in the trail-board.

 

What is the significance of 17 stars? How many states were there in 1811?

 

That is a Nautilus tucked into end, and doesn't the shape of Hornet's stern board remind you of the Chesapeake's?

 

 

Edited September 13, 2017 by uss frolick

[Talos]

Glad you like the view!

 

There were 17 states in 1811 since Ohio entered the union in 1803. That didn't last long, as Louisiana became a state in 1812.

 

From the catalog entry: Inscriptions on recto: "Design for the Stern of the Sloop of War Hornet" "History" "Young" "Apollo" " Knowledge" "Cloathes."

 

On the smaller, but zoomed-in scan, you can see the original locations of the stars easier, as well as some penciled in detail on the panel next to the eagle (look at that 3d eagle's head!). http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/cph.3a05394/

[CharlieZardoz]

Im curious did wasp have similar detailing? And for that manner other small ships like Syren Argus and ahem Frolick... Or was Hornet decorated more than usual?

[CaptArmstrong]

Truly amazing find of the Hornet's transom! It certainly looks a lot like the Chesapeake, which I'm beginning to think was a fairly common style of American transom. Bumps her well up the list of my potential 3D builds. Any idea where the figurehead and trailboards drawing might be found?

 

I'd agree that the model doesn't look a lot like the New York, the bow isn't raked enough, among other things. I think it matches up quite well to the Essex though, especially after her refit that made her more wall-sided with fully built up bulwarks. Interesting how low the copper stops on the hull, everything seems in proportion otherwise.  

 

Judging by the early images of the united states, she had something like a French dunette: http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/82972.html

without upper quarter galleries, but with a two-tier transom and balcony on the upper level.

 

Glad you made it through, Frolick!

[uss frolick]

I'm beginning to think they all were, at least before the war broke out, but that the detail was too fine to reproduce on 1/4th inch scale plans.

 

I suspect a whole bunch of similar drawings went up in flames in 1814 in Washington, and again in Norfolk in 1861.

[Talos]

I'm inclined to agree with you on both parts. With the latter, probably the only reason this survived is Latrobe probably had it in his personal files when he relocated to Pittsburgh before DC was burned, and after that it was kept with the other Architect of the Capital files instead of being sent to the naval archives.

 

The wartime classes were probably a lot plainer, but still decorated. The plans we have for Wasp/Hornet are already more detailed than most, both in hull and spars. Now you add this on top along with Hornet's figurehead and tail-boards...

[uss frolick]

... And the circa 1820 W.A.K. Martin watercolor of her profile, showing the revised positions of her ten broadside ports.

[Talos]

Yep, that too!

 

I wanted to see how it looked complete, so I threw the fullsize TIFF of the stern drawing into Photoshop. I hadn't notice the arrows the eagle is standing on. Also here is Chapelle's take on Wasp/Hornet as well for comparison.

 

 

[CharlieZardoz]

Neat. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to whether the detailing was wood carving maybe some metal? And what the coloring may have been?

[uss frolick]

I nominate Talos for the "Best Naval Historical Find Of The Year Award"!

 

Huzzah!