American sailing warships with no plans or records

[Seahawk1313]

Thank You for the E-Book.  It's interesting to see his style of carving eagles, columns. and details.  Now do you have anything on the work of William Deering?  I'm about to start 1799 Congress.  I found almost nothing on the Internet so far as for his carvings.  I know the Portsmouth Newspaper didn't care for Rush's figurehead, but it didn't say anything about the stern carvings.  I know what Rush had in mind for it but don't know if Deering followed it...  And thank you again for the E-Book,will read it my great interest. Hal 

[JerryTodd]

When I first saw the Constellation in the storm of 1833 I thought, wait, that's the Albany

But looking closer at the image it obviously was a frigate, and I realized it was another angle of the same subject

Still looking for a better image of this painting of Constellation at Naples, as it's the only one I know of that shows any of her stern.

It's credited to the Naval Historical Foundation who forwarded me to the Washington Naval Yard, who said it was a photo copy of the box art from a plastic model kit. (it's not)

 

[Talos]

Coincidentally, Albany is the only one of the 1840s 1st Class sloops/corvettes to have the same kind of flat stern as Constellation, so that makes sense. All the others had newer round sterns. She was also clipper-built and intended to be a bark, of course.

 

I was excited to recently find confirmation that the second frigate Macedonian was armed identically as Constellation, recieving 42cwt 32-pounders in the 1840s (and 32-pdr carronades! At least initially, rather than the smallest 32-pdr cannon). I had presumed that (since they were roughly in the 18-pdr weight class and made a good replacement), but I could never make sure it was that versus the 46cwt gun as Dahlgren wrote it was intended for "frigates of lesser rates". Looks like it was just limited to the old 24-pdr frigates like Constitution, United States, and maybe Java/Guerriere. Speaking of, I did notice in photographs that Constitution still has  smaller gunports than Santee (also Macedonian hiding in the background as always).  http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8T1xsEQev2c/UcGzfaoTBOI/AAAAAAAAAUA/mW3N5Czb0l8/s1600/School+ships.jpg

[CharlieZardoz]

Poor Java and Guerriere. They have practically no depictions to my knowledge and generally had uneventful careers. Java being the worst spending much of her time needing a rebuild. I imagine both ships might have had a few carvings but no idea if any info exists.

[Talos]

They do have one legacy, Constitution is still running the six-gun stern design that came in with them. But yeah, interim ships between the surviving Original-Six and the mature Brandywine (including being exactly in between them in beam, six inches broader than Connie/US, and six inches narrower than the Brandywines) and then being built under wartime timber standards which means both of them are out of sea service a decade before the new 32-pdrs come in (both in 1831) and both broken up in 1841-42. A short lifespan even compared to the Brandywines (especially the five to survive the Civil War, Potomac, St. Lawrence, Savannah, Sabine, and Santee).

[uss frolick]

The Connie's stern is a bit different. On Guerriere, the three gun-deck windows are as spread out as they can possibly be, to make 'room' to work three theoretical cannon, but on Connie's current stern, they are spaced close together, as though it was a five windowed stern with the outmost two windows planked over.

[Talos]

A bit different, but clearly taken from the same inspiration. I was just looking at the stern photograph from the 1874 refit and an internal profile of her modern stern, and compared them to Guerriere's and the Royal Navy's "as captured" arrangement drawing of President. Some things I noticed were the framing differences between the three and the modern stern has framing more like Guerriere's. It also isn't as docked-short and snub-nosed as Guerriere's, but doesn't tilt or have as much overhang as President's. Instead it looks like Guerriere's but tilted more. Looking at the ports, I notice that the spar deck ports look roughly like Guerriere's, but the gun deck ports are the same size as the broadside ports and spaced closer together, putting them out of line with the three spar deck ports. It's weird, almost like two stern designs plastered on top of each other. And you're right, it /does/ look like a five-window stern that way. It's really noticable with the quarter galleries removed in the refit picture.

 

Interesting similiarities and differences. Easy to see the Navy's policy of updating older ships to modern standards though, especially with Constitution being used in active duty well into the Antebellum Period.

 

http://captainsclerk.info/archives/visual/restoration and apprentice training/Image124.gif

https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Diag-Riders-Model-1024x290.jpg

 

 

 

[CharlieZardoz]

Ive been wondering if Connies 1874 onward stern was the same as it was during the civil war era or if changes were made? At any rate this makes me want to take Guerriere and Potomac and line then up now. 

Edited September 4, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[uss frolick]

Do it!

[Talos]

I imagine the 1874 stern is at least similar to the Civil War-era stern. A timeline from the Constitution Museum guesses the stern was rebuilt in the 1858-1860 refit to a school ship.

 

Thinking about it, Guerriere's stern would look very different from Constitution because of the round instead of flattened arch molding, which you can see in the above plans and Potomac's on the previous page too. Just a decorative difference, but an interesting one on those ships. It would fit in with the mid-century rebuild timeline.

 

EDIT: Another difference between the 1860s, 1870s, and 1880s Constitution is the waist was still open previously, but in this 1881 picture of Connie after she was decommissioned, you can see it's now planked in. In the 1860s the planking was different and stood out from the rest of the hull.

 

https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/BierdstadtDec1881USSCM1469-1-1024x757.jpg

 

By her early 20th century refits, it's no longer completely flush and there's a distinct boundary down at the deck level.

https://www.navalhistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/constitution.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/5c/c7/ac5cc7fdddb7fc9c1f7df79bd1106f31.jpg

They've been taken out in this picture during her 1907 rebuild.

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-63000/nh-63532-uss-constitution/_jcr_content/mediaitem/image.img.jpg/1477654575701.jpg

They've been taken out in this 1920s pic.

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/alphabetical---donations0/g/nhf-001-admiral-albert-gleaves-collection/_jcr_content/mediaitem/image.img.jpg/1502893586011.jpg

 

They seem to go back and forth a lot....

Edited September 4, 2017 by Talos

[CharlieZardoz]

Very interesting. Ive considered whenever I decide to build a Constitution model what it would be like to build her in her 1840 to civil war configuration (as I would United States). The billet scrollwork (under old hickery) was similar yet different to the current billet. I wonder if the stern ornaments were the same Hartfords changed quite a bit.

 

Also seahawk you mentioned the brandywine looked like cross swords. While I agree I wonder if those paintings can be viewed somewhere in larger detail...

Edited September 4, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[uss frolick]

In the old Time-Life book series on 'The Seafarers, there is a volume called 'The Frigates'. On page 160, a Algerian Artist had painted a beautiful tapestry about the capture of the Algerian flagship, the Frigate Mashuda, in 1815. She is here realistically portrayed dismasted, surrounded by Commodore Decatur's squadron. There is a stern view of the USS Guerierre shown firing into Mashuda. The artist must have actually seen the ships. Decatur's frigate, although small, shows interesting detail. The Guerierre has the three windows design, with two large white greek columns surrounding the center window, and two roses in the quarters. It looks like there is heavy, white lattice work, simulating a gallery, running across all three windows and the roses, beneath the stern boat. A shallower white lattice work runs beneath the windows, et al. Carved white rope work lines the outer edges of the counter all the way around. There may be other detail between the windows and the columns ... ?

 

If anyone has this book and a working scanner ...

Edited September 5, 2017 by uss frolick

[CharlieZardoz]

Oooooooooo yes I have this!  Again it's a tiny image I'd really like to know if there is a place to view the full size images. That said it does offer some nice perspective even at this size for me to make a template drawing off from (or start anyways).  Those are roses, not stars? Also here are two modernish paintings of Chesapeake and Decatur. The Decatur reminds me of Jamestown and Congress a bit while Chesapeake looks like she does from the captured plans however I do wonder if she was ornamented as such since the bone model in Germany shows much more carvings?

 

 

Also starting to realize that the best way to understand a ships build and decorations will mean collecting info on builders and woodworkers, so I can get an understanding on each's style (Rush seems to be the primary carver for many ships). Any thoughts on books I should invest in, I have Figureheads and their carvers of course a great work.

Edited September 5, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

I'm interested in the Dale-class, so I have a hard copy of the USS Decatur book. It's an interesting one, though an operational text and not a technological one. I've had the Dale redrawn from Chapelle's drawing for a while now and added a spar deck based on photography of the surviving ship.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Talos

[CharlieZardoz]

http://www.nyhistory.org/exhibit/capture-algerian-frigate-mashuda-american-squadron-under-command-commodore-stephen-decatur

 

Found the large version of the image. Its in New York I think ill go check it out

 

The Dale class were neat little ships sorta like the navy going back to the peacock class after a series of mediocre larger sloops.

[Talos]

They had some issues of their own, namely trying to go cheap and wedge an 1830s sloop in the dimensions and tonnage of a War of 1812-sized one. Among other things, they tried to cram more people, more boats, more spars, more supplies, etc and left the design overloaded. Not the fastest ships in the end (a problem with the Boston-class sloops too, not solved until Cyane and then Saratoga), but capable of a going at a good clip when well-handled and good, solid sailors. They were also cheap to operate, and being full ship-rigs they made good sail training vessels. One issue they did have was the very weak armament. Chapelle points out that multiple European brig-sloops carried more firepower than these US ship-sloops.

 

Worked out in the end though. They did a lot of yeoman work in the Pacific Squadron, among others, from Brazil to the Pacific Northwest.

[CharlieZardoz]

So I found this little nugget in the library of Congress. Looks like Constellation before her being town down and "rebuilt" While there are no stern detailing per se (probably removed or painted black). What we do see is the overall shape which coincides with the painting of her from 1825 as well as follows the overall shape of the Potomac/Java stern. Looking at all these I'm seeing a few basic patterns emerging. 1. the ships tended to have some sort of star like ornament by the quarter galleries. 2. They has some sort of pillars or carvery in between windows (Guerriere had them closer to the middle window it seems, while Constellation had them further out. 3. There was an outer thicker moulding which curved and ran through the upper gun ports and a thinner inner moulding which was usually painted white and tended to have some decoration. It makes Constitution seem somewhat of an enigma with her 3 windows much closer together and only two thin white mouldings which don't intersect the stern chase ports. It also makes me wonder what the moulding for United States looked like looking at the outboard profile.  But overall this seems like the style of ships from 1815 until the 1840's when the Congress/Raritan/Jamestown type with the large crest-like moulding took over.

Edited September 5, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[JerryTodd]

Constellation reached Fortress Monroe on Christmas Day 1864. In January 1865, the men whose enlistments had expired were "paid off" and discharged, the remainder of the crew was transferred to the frigate St. Lawrence, and the officers sent on leave to await orders. Constellation finished the Civil War as a Receiving Ship, first at Norfolk, and later at Philadelphia, until 1869.

This AR Waud sketch is propably of her at Norfolk, if it's her at all.  The stern is wrong and should look much like the frigate's in the storm, except ROUND.

 

Here she is in 1859 being refitted before the African cruise

[CharlieZardoz]

Hmm I was assuming that was the 1797 ship but perhaps that's the 1853 sloop then.

[CharlieZardoz]

So wondering if anyone is aware of a better quality version of this image? It's the 1823 Mediterranean squadron which includes North Carolina, Constitution, Brandywine (again) and Erie. In the image I have, you can see Connie appears to have a stern which looks at least somewhat like the model they have at the museum (can't really tell with the detail being so grainy). Brandywine has the characteristic "m" shape.  Also is there a record as to when Connie got fitted for 3 stern chasers?

Edited September 6, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[JerryTodd]

This was the best I could manage of the image on the wall of the Mariner's Museum in Newport News VA.

[CharlieZardoz]

Its much better than what I had thank you. Alot of this is tracking down the original source material. Then seeing what the original painter had in mind and ascern the details of these ships. Feels like doing history backwards Ive already come to new understandings regarding frigate decorations which is pretty neat. Now just need to see if I can find a larger version of the Brandywine painting with John Adams off Malta 1832. 

Edited September 6, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

I would start with checking the book to see who painted it, title, etc and get in touch with the Maryland Historical Society listed there and see if they can help.

[CharlieZardoz]

Ha well thats just comon sense right there

[Roger Pellett]

Charlie,

 

Books on American ship decoration:  I suggest Shipcarvers of North America by M.V.  Brewington.

 

Roger

[CharlieZardoz]

Oooh sounds like a good one thank you will hunt it down

[Seahawk1313]

A good book is _William Rush American Sculptor, Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts,1982.-Hal

[Glenn Houle]

Hello,  I'm new to this website and watch it frequently as I am building several American sailing warships. Since I live in NH,  I am looking for prints or information to build the USS Congress 1799, from Portsmouth NH, same scale as the USS Constitution 1/76.8 . Also, I'm looking for prints or information on the 74 gun ship America, also from Portsmouth NH, same scale. The America was the only 74 built in Colonial America (1782). Thought that I would say that this  website has been VERY HELPFULL in many ways, Thanks.  Glenn.

[Deperdussin1910]

Glenn H.,  I look forward to seeing pictures of your progress on SoL AMERICA.

[CharlieZardoz]

Hi Glenn, regarding Congress the 1799 ship might be a challenge to build as much detailing of the ship was never recorded and since she fought in no battles and therefore there are no contemporary depictions of her in battle and only one outboard profile. She had more or less a mundane existence was considered slow and left to rot after 1824. However if I were to ever consider building her I would first use what resources did exist and go from there. I would ask myself first what era would I want to build her as these ships changed over time. If at launching then I would use the profile plan of the Constellation class and stay as close to it as possible. If 1812 era then go off the outboard profile (see below). If 1824 well I would assume she may have appeared something similar to how Constellation did after her modernization, though I am unsure if Congress got such a renovation. At launching the Constellation class had 7 stern windows which then became 5 when the two nearest the quarter galleries were sealed. By the last refit they had 3 windows like Constitution does today and the detailing had less carvings and more general stuff like stars, wreaths, eagles etc. The exterior color changed as well from ochre to yellow to the white stripe and the figureheads were replaced with billetheads.  If I wanted to build such a model I would have to make a lot of guesses and use what is known about Constellation (see Constellation images) and then follow a similar style but imagine detailing for Congress. I am unsure if a record of her original carvings was recorded, frolick are you aware of any? What I do know is that Rush wanted the representation of the "Goddess of Wisdom." So I imagine that was her figurehead? 

 

America is different, there are models of America in existence to my knowledge anyways. I'd go hunt them down and see what the model makers did and do something similar. There are pics of such a model in this link. http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/7707-american-ship-collection-with-plans/ Good luck!

Edited September 9, 2017 by CharlieZardoz