US Brig Niagara by mikiek - FINISHED - Model Shipways - Scale 1:64 - First wooden ship build

[mikiek]

Good pix Joel.  I wasn't finished with the mock up tackles - the breech line and the tackle to the upper sled were done first because it appeared obvious that they would be intermingled. So I did those 2 first just to confirm. Moving the lower rings out helped "clean" this up. Not to plans, but it looks like a fairly common placement.

 

The Constitution breech line holders are interesting, but given the build conditions for Niagara would probably be a luxury item. I'll go back to eyebolt and use one of the larger split rings included with the kit. I got that idea for the bar from the Model Shipways Carronade Station kit.

 

Should have the mock up completed shortly. I'm still planning on 2 tackles per side, 1 in the rear and the breech line. Will certainly appreciate your judgement on sizing when I post the pix. I think if anything, I feel I am on the small side, but the next size up was giving that crowded look.

Edited June 12, 2016 by mikiek

[jbshan]

In re size, note the relative sizes of the blocks on the pics.  They're pretty small.

[mikiek]

So maybe I'm on target there. That's good to hear! I really want to put all the rigging in as long as it looks OK

 

In the 2nd pic I like how they stowed the extra rope on the upper tackle. Wrapped between the blocks rather than coiled on the deck. Less clutter. It also looks like a double block was used for the lower tackle.

 

Your pix show more detail (and more rigging) than the mockups at the Niagara museum.

 

Back out to the garage........

[mikiek]

Well, I came to a completion of sorts. One carronade rigged up (in the mock gun station) with everything that I would like to show in my build. Some improvements are needed which I will mention below.

 

Although, I have deviated from my schedule almost an entire weekend, I think the mock station was/is a good exercise. It allowed me to see quite a few combinations of ropes, blocks,etc.  I have also learned a few do's and dont's regarding the gun instalation. It should make the actual installation more straightforward.

 

I guess I'll go thru some pix with comments:

 

 

Please excuse all the loose ropes in the tackles. I used photo etched hooks (the plastic type) and have found out the hard way they are too flimsy to take any stress - like pulling tight on a tackle. Too bad because I think they look great. I have some brass hooks on order.

 

 

5 tackles and a breech line per gun. 7 eyebolts with split rings. I mentioned in an earlier post I moved the lower port eyebolt outwards some. Plans call for them to be over each other, but I thought the tackle & breech line would interfere with each other. You can see now they have a bit of space between them.

 

 

As far as part size, I ended up using what I tried originally. I'm pleased with the combination - I was able to get the complete rigging without taking up a lot of real estate. All these parts came from Syren Models:

 

3mm hooks

.008  light brown rope for rigging

.035 light brown rope for breech line

3/32" single blocks

 

 

As I mentioned in my reply to Joel, I like the way the extra tackle line is handled in the pics he posted. Probably not battle ready but very tidy. I think it looks a lot better than coils - those always look a little contrived to me.

 

As far as a real installation I think I will get some measurements between eyebolts for each tackle. Then, assuming the brass hooks are stronger, I can make a jig to hold 2 blocks at the proper distance to rig up. I can make them up at my convenience, a few at a time. With the hooks stropped to the blocks it would be a simple matter to install them - hook one end to a bulwark eyebolt, hook the other end to the gun.

 

Speaking of jigs, I will do another post of how I stropped the 3mm hooks to the 3/32" blocks. I got a little smarter as I went on.  Nothing new or revolutionary, just a combination of several techniques I have come across.

Edited June 13, 2016 by mikiek

[Elijah]

Nice job! It looks great! That carronade has nice texture.

[mikiek]

Thank you Elijah. That pitted look was the result of leaving the Britannia in the blackening solution longer than prescribed. I think overall I like the look too. The problem is I didn't do all the barrels then, so for consistency's sake I will have to try to duplicate the process for the rest of them.

[6ohiocav]

Mike,

 

You were already reading my mind on how you stropped those hooks on the blocks. I am looking forward to your post on that.

 

I think your gun rigging is spot on.  It looks great!

[6ohiocav]

Mike,

 

I have another question.  Have you given any thought on how you are going to secure the carronades/cannons to the deck. What pins were you going to use for the carronades? and were you going to glue down the carriages?

[mikiek]

Hey Darrell - don't know if your kit had this but mine has 2 sizes of belaying pins. The majority of them I believe are for rigging. There are 20 that are a hair longer and thicker and I was considering using those. However they do stick up a little high. At the very least, I was probably going to cut the handles off some pins and use the pin part.

 

I have the pics ready for the stropping demo. I'll try to write it up tonite. If I recall I think you said you had ordered some of the hooks. I hope they were the brass variety. I found the plastic type to be unsatisfactory for this type of use. They tear easily and if they have been stropped it is almost impossible to reuse the block. So you lose a hook and a block and have to re-reg the entire tackle.

[6ohiocav]

I have the same two sized pins. I had no idea what they were for. Were you thinking of gluing the carriages to the deck?

[mikiek]

Probably not. If the pin has a snug fit (in the hole and the carriage)  I think it will keep the carriage from moving. Also still not sure about gluing the sled to the carriage. With some solid hooks, all that tackle works. I think it would be cool to be able to show people. Maybe glue most of the sleds but leave a couple free for demos.

[mikiek]

I'm really beat tonite. Was almost NOT going to do any building, which would have been the first day in months I haven't done something. However, I've been thinking about all the loose ropes in the mock up and what I will do with them. If you haven't seen the pix Joel posted, scroll up a few posts and check out the carronade. THAT is how I want to rig mine.

 

So I took a tackle off the gun and clipped each block in a holder. I was about to try to wind the loose rope around the ropes between the blocks and it hit me. The .008 rope is just too thin. It looked terrible when I tried to wrap it like the pic. I'm not sure it could be coiled. So what now. I knew I should have gone to bed

 

I have quite a few sizes of rope, so the thought was go up from .008 to .012 .  Have you ever tried cramming .012 rope into a 3/32 block? I don't know that it's possible without seriously reaming the holes. I also have various sized blocks so I went from 3/32 to 1/8.  The bigger rope fits. So I rigged up a tackle with that combination, but even the .012 didn't look all that good when I wrapped the extra up.

 

Well, I have .018 rope as well. This is about the size where the thread really starts looking like miniature rope. And .018 will fit in the 1/8 blocks after running a #73 bit thru the holes. So I rigged up that combination. Looking better!

 

That's as big as I will take it for now. I need to seriously study Joel's pix and see if I can figure out what is closest to that. The blocks in the pic don't seem that large but the rope does. The block/rope proportions don't seem the same in my mock ups.

 

I'm going to leave it there for tonite.....

[mikiek]

Although . . .

Here are a couple of shots of Constitution, one of the 24 pdr long gun and one of the 32 pdr carronade.  Note the breeching ropes are in a sort of pin arrangement.  I don't know where they found this but you could use it for a prototype.  Note the two tackles per side on the carronade.  Making these will double the number of tackles you need (I know), but the weapon will not function properly without.

 

 

Joel - I'm trying to get some sort of perspective with your carronade pic. Any idea of the size of the tackle rope or breech line?

[mikiek]

Another sleepless nite. Second in a row. So I'll see if I can show the stropping of the 3mm hooks (brass) to the 3/32" blocks and have it make sense. I will claim right now I did not originate any of these ideas. I just combined steps from a number of other sources into something that worked for me.

 

First off, the stuff is tiny! Pretty much too small to work with without holding them in tweezers or some other type of grippers. I used 1 pair of locking tweezers with the rough inner surface to hold the hook or block and another pair that comes to a fine point to hold the thread.

 

One other thing I will show is a very fine CA applicator. I just found out about these a few months back and figured everyone must know about them. However a work associate who claims to be a modeler for 30+ years (cars & planes) had never heard of them so I'll show them here in case there are others. It's just an eyedropper of sorts with a VERY small tip. Once you get some CA inside (I use medium) you can apply the tiniest of dots to a surface. Very useful - I apply all my CA with these things. The CA will stay workable for a week or so and then you just toss it and get a new one. One of the best tools I have come across.

 

 

One other step that is used a lot is to dip the end of your ropes in some CA (medium again), wipe it down and let dry. This stiffens up the end so that it threads into the small holes easier. After it dries you can also cut the end at a sharp angle to make a point which also makes it easier to thread. You can squirt a blob of CA onto a piece of wax paper and it will stay usable for some time.

 

What we want to end up with is a 3mm photo etched hook stropped to the 3/32" block. I ruled out wire pretty quick. It would have had to be very thin and probably hard to work with plus it would need to be painted or blackened which would be problematic. Instead I used .008 black rope. The 3/32 blocks are difficult to hold to work with so I made a jig to keep it and free up a hand.

 

So cut a piece about 2"-3" long and dip one end in CA to harden. Trim the end to a point. Grab a hook with the locking tweezers so that the loop at the end of the hook is exposed. Grab the rope with the pointed tweezers and thread thru the loop.

 

 

Here you can see the result and also the jig I mentioned. Next ream out the holes in your block. You don't have to enlarge them but do make sure they are open all the way thru. Put the block onto the jig.

 

 

No that's not blood. Just some dried Chili Red paint.

 

 

I glued a couple of square strips to the mock up station to hold the jig.

 

 

Slide the hook to the midpoint of the rope and then fold the rope in half grabbing both ends between thumb & finger. Wet down the ends, just a swipe over your tongue should do then thread the ends thru a piece of tube (I used styrene). The hole in the tube needs to be small. Leave a bit of a loop on the side with the hook.

 

 

Position the loop over the block on the jig. Line up the thread with the grooves in the block holding the ends of the thread with thumb & finger. Once lined up grab the tube with tweezers and slide it up tightly against the block. Hold it in place there with thumb & finger. This makes it easy to hold everything in place. If needed, straighten out the hook so it extends straight out from the block and then put a dot of CA at the base of the hook so it holds that position (learned that one the hard way). Put another dot of CA on the thread and block to hold that side in place. Count to 10 and then carefully slide the tube off. At this point you should have thread secured to the top side of the block.

 

 

Quickly grab the end of that thread with tweezers. With the other tweezers grap the thread on the bottom side of the block. Gently pull it tight and then over onto the top side and lay it flat and parallel with the other thread. If your CA is still not dried this will hold the thread in place. If it is dried add another small dot. Either way count to 10 again then let go.

 

 

Slide the block off the jig. Apply a dot of CA to what was the bottom side of the block. The thread on both sides of the block should be glued now.

 

 

Let the glue dry for a few minutes and then trim the ends.

 

For the carronades, repeat 179 more times

 

Please note, in a recent post I have decided to upsize the parts. At least that's the direction for today. I will be using a 1/8" block and am also going to try 4mm hooks. I will use the same size rope (.008) for stropping the hook.

 

Hope this may help someone. At the very least it will help jog my memory 6 months from now 

 

 

 

 

[6ohiocav]

Mike,

 

Thanks for the insights.  180 of these!!!  I can't wait.

[6ohiocav]

Mike,

 

If you were to place an order to Syren for rope and blocks, what would you order. I note that the material you are using is from there, so perhaps you have already placed that order. Would you mind giving me a suggestion on what I should order.  Time to break down and get it done.

 

Thanks.

[mikiek]

Darrell - A while back I ordered a bunch of rope. Many sizes and colors. Same with the blocks. That's what allowed me to do what I have done the last few days.

 

I hate to sound wishy washy but I have already changed once. The .008 rope was too thin to do anything with all the extra - so I rule that out. The next size up rope - .012 - just doesn't fit in the 3/32 blocks. So 1/8 is the only choice. Even that rope didn't look all that good when the extra was wound up. So .018, which also fits in the 1/8 block looks to be the best so far.

 

I had one of each size laid out and tried to shoot a pic but it really doesn't show the difference.

 

The .018 rope with 1/8 blocks are what I am leaning towards. You have some options with the extra rope and they are still small enough so it doesn't get crowded.

 

I did try a 5/32 block and it is starting to look too big. The only thing I didn't try was the next biggest rope .025 in the 1/8 block.

 

None of those 3 look bad, but the .018 rope will look better coiled or wound up between the blocks (like in Joel's pic).  The .018 dictates a 1/8 block.

 

Original hooks were 3mm but I have ordered some 4mm. If you look at Joel's carronade pic, the hooks are almost as big as the blocks. I hope they will be easier to hook on to the split rings as well. The hooks should arrive by the end of the week. Chuck is in NJ so you would probably have them in a day or so.

 

One thing to consider - if you are replacing blocks for the guns you should probably do it across the board. So take stock of the other blocks on the materials list and get the equivalent from Chuck. If you have any concerns, send him an email. He is quick to respond and can help you decide how to replace the other blocks.

 

Vague enough?

[mikiek]

Hey everyone - it's taken some time but I am starting to get an idea of what I will use for carronade rigging. I've tried a lot of combinations of different parts - all from Chuck at Syren - and am just about there. I have one more item I want to try with the hooks, but here is what I will be using:

 

1/8" single blocks

.008 black rope for stropping the hooks

.025 light brown rope for the tackles

.035 light brown rope for the breech line

4mm hooks - material T.B.D.

 

The hooks is what I am still looking at. First I used the 3mm plastic version. They looked good albeit a little small, so I picked up both some 3mm and 4mm brass hooks. While I still may use them, I don't like the look quite as much as the plastic hooks. The brass are fairly flat, whereas the plastic had a slight 3D look to them. The brass will also need to be colored, either blackened or painted. I do like the 4mm size vs the 3mm.  I was going to order some 4mm plastic hooks last nite but Syren may be out at the moment. I am following up with Chuck to find out when they will be available.

 

The .025 rope allowed me to wrap the extra between the blocks - similar to the carronade pic that Joel posted here a few posts back. I like this look compared to the coils, especially considering there will be 5 tackles per gun. All those coils lying on the deck would not look good IMO.

 

Here's a few pix with the combination listed above and the 4mm brass hooks.

 

 

 

Your comments and impressions are welcome.

 

 

[mikiek]

Man - it's never easy. Just got word from Chuck that he will not be able to produce the plastic hooks anymore. I was hoping to get some of the 4mm size for the carronade rigging. Too bad, I think they would have been the ticket.

 

I still have quite a few of the 3mm plastic hooks, so the decision is 3mm plastic (they look the best but are a tad small and not terribly strong) or 4mm brass (best size but don't look as good as the plastic-too flat).

 

I'll let you guys know when I decide.

[Chuck]

It looks OK but I will say that at that scale the rope you are using for the gun tackles is way, way too thick and out of scale.  At this scale the blocks for the tackles would have been 6" long which translate to 3/32" blocks.  The rope for the tackles would need to be .012 at the largest.  Its just way too heavy.   to have anything larger than that in my opinion.   I would also go with .035 rope for the breech lines.  But thats just my opinion for rigging those guns at 1:64 scale. 

 

Here is a photo of Cheerful guns at 1/4" scale using 

 

1/8" blocks for the tackles and .012 rope.   The breech line is .035.

 

At 3/16" scale I wouldnt go much larger than that.  Again its just an observation and my opinion.

 

 

The best method to use .012 rope on the smaller blocks like 3/32" is to first stiffen the end of the rope with some white glue.  Once it dries,  cut the end of the rope on an angle to make it into a point like a needle.  It should be stiff and sharp afterwards.  It will slide through the holes in the 3/32" blocks just fine.  Another alternative is to use a needle threader.  No stiffening required.  But I dont find that necessary as long as you can handle the small blocks in your fingers comfortably.  Hope this helps.

 

Chuck

[mikiek]

All opinions are welcome Chuck.

 

The reason for the .025 rope in the tackles is I want to wrap the excess between the blocks -per the pic - rather than coils on the deck. I tried .008 and .012 rope and when I did the wrapping, it just didn't look right. Too much like thread and not enough like rope. The .018 rope looked better but I thought the .025 looked best when wrapped. But honestly, I threw that all together last nite and have not yet hooked it to the carronade so maybe I'll think differently then.  Perhaps at that scale, I'm expecting too much.

 

You can see some of my other attempts with smaller parts in earlier posts.

 

I'm still in decision mode, so I will take your input into consideration.

 

[Chuck]

The sizes arent based on looks and instead based on factual data and tables....whatever you decide to go with its fine...but it will be much too large historically speaking.  

 

Again its just my opinion....but rather than just try three sizes of blocks and 4 sizes of rope for the tackles willy-nilly.   It is best to refer to the historical tables and contemporary sources for rope sizes.  Basically they used 

 

6" blocks...give or take, depending on the size of the gun.   And the appropriate sized rope for a 6" block   which in my opinion is around 1" to maybe 1 1/4".   I suppose you could maybe go as large as .018 rope for the tackles but its pushing it to the higher end of the spectrum. 

[jbshan]

These are 1/2" scale, but show the same problem as I have run into with Niagara's 1/64".  If you run the weapons out fully, you run out of room for the tackles.  These are kit blocks and my rope and hooks.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by jbshan

[mikiek]

I think this is becoming a lesson of scale. What can be done and what can't. Tonite I built a tackle with 3/32 blocks and .012 rope. It looks OK. I even did the wrapping of the excess between the blocks like the picture. That's where things went south. It looks funny. The rope is too small to really see what it is.

 

I have no problems going with the smaller parts - I'd like to be as accurate as I can. I just don't like the excess rope coiled on the deck so the wrapping seemed like a viable alternative.

 

I'm thinking about maybe not having any excess. Just enough rope to reave the blocks and then glue the loose end somewhere. At that scale it might not look too bad.

[mikiek]

Man - it seems as though another of my posts has been lost. To summarize that:

 

1. Decided on the part sizes for carronades.

  3/32" single blocks

  3mm brass photo etched hooks

  .008 black rope for stropping the hooks

  .012 light brown rope for tackle rigging

  .035 light brown rope for breech line

  .008 dark brown rope for seizing the breech line

 

2. I will be making 5 tackles per gun

   2 for lateral adjustment

   2 for running out

   1 for hauling back

 

3. Eybolt pattern will be

   1 on each side in the waterway; for lateral tackles

   1 on each side about 3/16" out from port edge and 1/8" up from waterway; for breech line

   1 on each side about 1/16" out from port edge and 3/16" up from waterway; for running out tackles

   1 about 1" behind the lower carriage; for haul back tackle

   NOTE: this does not match the plans exactly but is close enough for me and a little easier to work with

 

4. I will be positioning the barrels almost fully hauled back. The breech line will be almost tight.

 

5. Had hoped to have all the tackes actually work - for demo purposes - but I'm not sure this is possible. Ropes don't slide thru blocks all that well which can put undo stress on the tackle rigs.

 

 

So now it's a matter of getting the parts prepped for assembly. I will be reaming out the blocks, cutting and filing the hooks. I have to go visit my father in the hospital this weekend so I am taking the necessary equipment to do some of that there when there is time to kill.

 

Speaking of photo-etched - this is my first experience with that. I have been cutting out the hooks with an Exacto but it is leaving small nubs on the parts which are rather difficult to file off. Does anyone have some suggestions on the best way to cut photo-etched (brass) parts?

 

[Canute]

Mike, this is my technique for cutting brass.

 

I cut the PE using a curved Xacto type knife, laying the PE on a piece of plate glass. No flex like a cutting mat would have. Cut as close as possible to your part. Use plenty of light, maybe some magnification and for sure wear safety glasses. You may want to consider putting some tape on the part to keep it from sailing off or maybe(?) hold it with a finger (carefully). If you have a nub of brass after cutting, carefully grab the part with a locking tweezers or something similar and take a fine file to the nub.

[mikiek]

Nice idea with the curved blade Ken. Even better with the tape on the PE card. That is what's taking so long now - cut the part, lift up the card with knife, move the card, grap the tweezers, pick up part, put it in bowl, get card, get knife,....... With that tape I can just cut then move to the next part and cut again. I have literally several hundred hooks to cut out.

[mikiek]

Well, here's what I have been doing the last few nites. I'm maybe about 1/3 finished.

 

 

Picked up some true sprue cutters today. I'll see how they do at cutting out those PE hooks.

 

A few weeks back I was questioning the kit belay pins. I had used a few for other purposes and so was a few short. Was debating more brass kit pins or move to wood pins instead. Brass pins need to be colored. Wood pins are not quite the same size. I ended up ordering more brass pins. Here's what they look like painted with Tamiya Deck Tan. Just one of hundreds of small decisions we make during the course of a build.

 

 

In the background you can see a wood strip I drilled out to hold the pins (and cleats) while painting them

[6ohiocav]

Mike,

 

Just put in my order from Syren for blocks and rope following the results of your exhaustive research.  Thanks for all of the trial and tribulation.  I hope to return the favor somehow.

 

I will be constantly looking over your shoulder and following right behind you taking advantage of all your experiences.

 

Happy rigging.

[mikiek]

That's what we are all here for.

 

After I get all the hooks cut and blocks reamed I will have to go back to all the inner bulwark fixtures. I have a terrible fear of missing something on the plans and not being able to fix it down the road.

 

I'm not sure why, but the carronade thing really wore me out. I may put Niagara on the shelf for a few days and work on Enterprise a little bit - still in the very early stages on that one. The smell of different wood....