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cleats, ring bolts and belaying knots


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I dont think one would "belay" to a ring bolt in general - doesnt give a quick "cast off" . 

A cleat or a pin (which is actually just a cleat with a moveable bit!) doesnt have the line passed through it so you dont have to worry about having fathoms of free end as you may have through a ring.

 

 

Assuming you mean  a fixing for running rigging.

It would either be a fixed splice to a ring or more usually a hook to the ring on say a tackle block.

 

Obviously sometimes done - there is the anchor bend - attached to an anchor ring and a mooring line is often taken to a jetty ring with a  round turn and two half hitches

Edited by SpyGlass
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I appreciate the reply, but I am a little confused with your use of the word 'belay'.  

 

In "A Marine Glossary for the Ship Modeler", Schairbaum defines "belay" like this:  "To make a line fast to a cleat, belaying pin or other device for securing a line.  Also spoken as a command to resend a previous command".

 

 Dean King defines the word in "A Sea of Words" thus:  To make fast, or secure, a running rope, especially one of the small ones used for working sails, around a cleat, belaying pin, or kevel.  Also, to disregard, as i  "belay the last word" ". 

 

So, I thought I was using the term properly.

 

In any event, none of my reference books show how to tie off a running line to a ring set in the deck.  I couldn't even find a knot in "The Ashley Book of Knots".  It may be I didn't look hard enough.

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Could it be that it is not common practice to belay to a ring? Think you have the term belay defined, now you need to take a look at the devices noted in the description you have, compared to a closed ring. If I needed to secure a line to a ring, I would double the line, poke the loop thru the ring and then make a half hitch using the double. That way, if I needed to let go quickly, I would use the free side to pull the hitch apart and have the line clear of the ring. There are several methods people use when a quick emergency release is needed, all require doubling the line before forming the hitch.

jud

need to add, when you make the half hitch, use the loop and lay it in like a shoe lace, then like the shoe lace, a tug will let it fall apart.

Edited by jud
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I get the point about using tackle hooked to the ring.  I have illustrations of that.  frustratingly enough, the ends of the line are not shown.  They disappear into thin air.  So, where do yo belay the line?  All of the belaying plans I have seen show some lines running to the deck or to the rail, exclusive of the pin rail. They don't show what the line is belayed to.  Is there a usual way modelers have for installing these lines?  I can't possibly be the only person to have asked this.  How do YOU do it?

 

PS  would that half hitch hold in a gale?

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As I described it, it would if uniform tension was kept on the tension side of the line, for insurance just form another loop and put inside the first loop formed on the half hitch and snug it all down, but you loose some the quick release advantage, especially if it gets jammed. Regardless, what I describe would only for a temporary hold fast, poor choice for any rigging intended for extended unattended use. For use in securing an object, it would be fine to use, Rings are used to hook other devices to, not normally lines. Look up quick release knot. Old saying, a half hitch will hold anything, double it and you can hold the world, found that statement not to be so outlandish, but if slack develops, Katie, bar the door.

jud

Edited by jud
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Lines are not normally belayed to a ring.  If a line does terminate at a ring bolt it is normally the standing (not hauled on) end of the line.  In this case the line is put through the ring, a half hitch is taken and then the end is seized to itself.  You see this on sheets and tacks where the standing end is hitched to ring bolts on the hull exterior.  Also in the channels for the halyard tyes.

 

A lot of rigging plans do have sparse belaying plans, but most lines would belay either near the base of the mast on pin rails, at knight heads on the deck, or at cleats, kevels and pin racks at the ships sides.  Sometimes lines, particularly on older vessels, would belay directly to a rail.

 

Regards,

Edited by popeye2sea
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Sorry trying to be clear - failed ! 

Word use varies round the world, I was trying to indicate that I would use " belay" for a working line not just any cordage or rope fastened to something.

So for instance standing rigging in my use is not "belayed".

 

If you are thinking about a specific model and you put up an illustration  am sure you will get lots of advice on rigging.

What many people dont realise and most model kits dont show is the number of  blocks and pulleys in running rigging. 

Except for the smallest vessels  you dont just have one line from the object  to a belaying point - there will very very often be a block or two in the run.

Edited by SpyGlass
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Its possible, in the strictest sense, to belay to a ring, but this is not common practice. You could tie a clove hitch with a bight of the line to the ring and this would be an acceptable but clumsy way to belay to a ringbolt. But in any situation other than some temporary lash-up, a proper belaying point of either a pin or a cleat will be provided. As to your plans not having enough pins for the lines that are on your ship, I have heard this lament before. I know in some cases two buntlines can belay together to the same pin- they will always be cast off or belayed together and are never under too much strain so keeping them on the same pin is fine. This would free up one of your pins for another line. In other cases its not at all uncommon to have cleats lashed to the shrouds above the pins. HMS Victory has many of these shroud cleats and they may not be drawn on the plan since they are independent of the deck fixtures.

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I think you have hit on the answer.  I have been researching  some more, and found information in Underhill's book "Masting and Rigging the Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier".  In Appendix I he writes of "Purchases and tackles in common use on running rigging", and illustrates a number of arrangements for tackle that is attached to a deck ring.  Frustratingly enough, he ends each description with "belayed as required", "belays as convenient" and "so down to the belaying point".  The belaying plan included in the book shows those lines belayed to the deck, but does not show the belaying point, which, as you have suggested, must lead to a shroud cleat or some similar point.  I suppose this is an instance of using best judgement to belay the running end of the line.

 

Thank you for your comments. 

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You could always just list off the lines in question, here, and people could weigh in on them one line at a time. There were conventions in doing these things and often things were done in a similar way from ship to ship. Give the name of the ship and the historical time frame and I am sure someone here has some info for you.

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Of the ships that I have built, this is the first that I have rigged with lines for the sails and it seems that all of the belaying plans I have available that show lines leading to the deck to be lines for sails.  Hence my first time dealing with this subject.  I am becoming convinced that, as has been mentioned by several others, these lines belay to a shroud cleat or similar device.

 

I looked at the illustration in Lees' book, but it seems the fisherman's bend used tied to a ring would not be suitable for the quick release needed for sheets, braces or jib down-hauls and sheets, all of which are shown as the majority of the lines leading to the deck.

 

FYI...I am currently rigging 1/8 scale Sea Witch, which only shows jib down-hauls and jib sheets leading to the fore deck.  But the more I got into the subject, and the more belaying plans I studied, the more questions I had.

 

Thanks to all who replied.

 

Jay 

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One can certainly fasten a line to a ring with many different knots.

But with a "working line" you DONT usually  "knot" on the working length.  The assumption is that it will need to be adjusted regularly or more importantly cast off urgently.

The joy of a cleat  or belaying pin is that a simple turn and a bit round with a half hitch holds so well.  I still can remember the guy who taught me to sail (heavens 55 years ago) using "foul language" because I could never quite believe it and kept  putting on an extra turn or two. 

 

Interestingly enough he only grudgingly accepted a half hitch - he had been trained on  large sailing vesssels where he said they never used the hitch just the turns.  But his view was that modern lines were slippier and needed the hitch sometimes.

 

Rigging on fairly large sailing vessels is also not quite like you might expect - there are, as I have aready said, LOTS of blocks used  - all sorts of guides to take lines through and many of the lines for the upper spars were taken to cleats aloft.

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For anyone still following this topic, I found an excellent article in NRG's very own "Ship Modeler's Shop Notes" (Vol. 1).  It begins on page 196 , and is entitled "French Man-Of-War Belaying Gear", by D.L. Dennis.  Despite the title, the discussion goes beyond that of the man-of-war, and went a long way in answering many of my questions.

 

Thanks again to all who replied to my original post. 

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