Atlantis by Thistle17 - FINISHED - Robbe

[Thistle17]

Mark I just don't know at this point. I have once again gone back to Rustoleum Help Center and they will be contacting me shortly. Intuitively I had thought, before this application of the trim color, that after wet sanding I should spot prime this area. I didn't and I think at this point it was a bad decision.

 

I don't think  it is the hull material for 2 reasons: (1) the transom (was missing when I received the model) is wood. I didn't say it on the previous entry but it too crazed/wrinkled badly and (2) the under coat is a Navajo White which was too creamy so I top coated with the Gloss White, that under layer did not craze.

 

I am going to rub out the final coat with a mild rubbing compound before a top coat of clear gloss.

 

Thanks for offering the suggestion. I must say my blood pressure is rising as I am stalled until this is solved.

 

Joe

 

 

[Guest Tim I.]

Can you fill and then sand the blemish?

 

I have never had good success with Rustoleum paint. I would recommend Tamiya sprays. 

 

- Tim

[Thistle17]

Tim I chose this paint because it was touted as a plastic paint and secondly it produces a pretty good volume of paint. Th coats elsewhere need only a mild rub out as the applications are decent. I did not use an air brush as I would have had a supply problem. I kept thinking that I should  get a good detail/model brush like Iwata but then I shrunk away because I thought my paint supply (autobody paint) pigment size mught trip me up.

 

Joe

Edited October 16, 2017 by Thistle17

[Thistle17]

Well here is the latest. Rustoleum Customer Service was of no help at all. So here is what I am trying at the moment. I wet sanded down the 2 areas that crinkled. I then waited 2 days and applied a primer coat over these areas. I will now try an overcoat(s) of color.

 

If that doesn't work. I am going to wet sand the whole hull and start again. Only this time I am going to use automotive paint (likely enamel) and reapply both base color and accent. I will then over spray a clear coat finish. I have spoken with the automotive paint shop folk and this is what they recommend. They can mix custom color and charge the cans. The reason I like these cans is they also have a much better paint nozzle for wider spraying. Not a cheap solution as it is about $30 per color.

 

The lacquer route is not recommended as it may eat right through existing coats.

[Thistle17]

This is a further update. I had success doing what I thought was logical. I wet  sanded the affected areas, applied the Rustoleum primer and let it sit for 3 days. I painted these areas this AM (70+ degrees, low RH). It worked!!!!! Why their customer support didn't suggest that is beyond me.

 

I'd like to pass on something I learned about automotive masking tape. In all the masking/unmasking and repainting I find I much prefer the following:

- 3M Precision Masking Tape  #06525 (this is 1/4 inch)(light green in color). It has a semi transparency to it so when laying it down one can see the correct placement point through the tape if the colors are contrasting.

- 3M Automotive Refinish Masking Tape (No # on roll)(Yellow in color)

These exhibit excellent line separation with no "leakage underneath and they are relatively thin in thickness so there is a very fine ridge at the intersection of colors.

I found the Scotch Performance Masking Tape 233+ of lesser advantage in comparison.

Joe

 

Edited October 21, 2017 by Thistle17

[Thistle17]

In another thread on this site I said I would pay more attention to the pictures I take. I fibbed a bit. I wanted to record a milepost for the client (and any one else interested for that matter). The model hull has reached a painting milestone. If you have been following along on this thread you know I didn't hide my failures on this stage of the project. The painting journey was awful. There is no better word for it. I did finally overcome the crazing/wrinkling by spot priming the areas of concern and repainting that entire surface again. I was going to paint in the gold waterline but I lost my nerve as a result of the previous set backs. The waterline is 3M Scotchcal Striping Tape (1/4 inch). It is so easy to work with. Just pull back the backing paper (as you go) and purposefully lay it down. Press firmly only at the beginning and continue on. If you have any misalignment it lifts relatively easily and can be reapplied. The directions indicate that you must rub it down at the end with a soft cloth and over a short period it will fuse to the surface. There is a top clear layer that can be peeled back. It is there to protect the tape during application.

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Thistle17

[Thistle17]

The next stage is to finish paint the inner bulkwarks and begin attaching some of the deck fittings. I have all but decided that I will start from scratch to build all the deck furniture. The die cut pieces are inferior in size and the material quality is equally poor. Some parts are even missing and don't show up on the drawings

 

 I do have a side project related to the model. The client wishes to display the model in her year round home away from home. It's resting place is on a second floor loft area that dictates a special table. I will incorporate the stand as part of this table so as i think of it I have to set the model aside and begin that aspect of the project.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Thistle17

[Guest Tim I.]

Joe,

 

It looks good. Nice work!

 

- Tim

[Stephen Vick]

I had the same problem with that exact paint.  I tried painting an old Kyosho First 53 and it crinkled right up.   Even after allowing to cure for 2 months a second coat crinkled... So, you are not alone!   Anyway, I am very interested in your Atlantis project. I am currently re-building an Atlantis.   looks great so far!

[Thistle17]

Thanks for the feedback Stephen this paint saga really set me back weeks. I was so angry with the outcome I even had to walk away from the project for a few days. I will never use the Rustoleum product again for something like this. As I search the web I find we are not alone on this problem. The folk's advice at the auto finishers store is the way to go.

 

Please join in here if you are so inclined. It is helpful to hear from others.

 

Also if you don't have a genoa kit I have one by mistake and will sell for a reasonable price. It is complete and unopened save the shipping box. See the ad on this web site under items for sale. 

[Thistle17]

I have begun the deck furniture and as I said I could not deal with the shoddy materials, fit etc of the kit so I began building them anew. The process is going slowly as there are no dimensional drawings so with a combination of existing die cut parts and measurement of deck opening I have begun pretty much "building in place". This is not ideal as one can imagine as the deck furniture forms were slightly titled in the vertical plane on all sides and the hull mold isn't exactly uniform about a center line. The first photo is what would have been realized using supplied parts of the kit. Pretty ugly even in its unfinished form. Oh, I forgot to add there was no trim accessory pack in what I took in. The second photo is my built up version using boxwood and mahogany materials. It is yet to be fully detailed but I think you get the idea. I would again add I discarded the acrylic forms shown earlier as they just didn't work with this method. I do appreciate that if one were to sail this model they would have possibly been more appropriate as these new elements are all assembled using "yellow" glue.

Joe

 

 

 

 

The Robbe Atlantis.pptx

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Thistle17

[Thistle17]

Hard to believe I am finally approaching the end of the deck cabins for Atlantis. They have been mini projects in themselves that never seemed as though there was an end in sight. Fundamentally the deck furniture woodwork is done save the main cabin sky lights and handrails for this and the aft cabin. The body wood is boxwood and the roof and some trim is mahogany. They have been coated with Minwax wiping varnish. The last appointments will be the running lights, air vents and hatch handles. I have not decided how to treat the porthole and cabin "glass" quite yet. I was reading McCaffery's book and he suggests .025 microscope slide glass. Only timidity I have is how do I accurately cut the porthole glass. Secondly the back side has to be opaque as I did not finish the interior of cabins.

 

One final note. I took some stylized liberty with the furniture. Call it aesthetic license or whatever they just looked better to me. Note the "gauges" on the helm (aft cabin). I went on line and found an actual boat panel I liked, then modified it and reduced it to scale. Maybe that is why it has taken me way too long to get to this point!

Edited February 9, 2018 by Thistle17
Grammar

[Thistle17]

I have begun installing deck fittings. At the moment I have installed and secured the fore and aft deck rings for stays (2 port and starboard for each mast. I have also drilled the deck holes for the 28 stanchions. While doing this I began thinking ahead about running rigging and it dawned on me that there is little,if any.  I observed that there is no hauling rigging for forward and main sails, there are cleats to be affixed to the mast peak to "dress" the sail taught and secure it. This all makes sense now,as the only sail control meant for the model as an RC build was boom control. I perceive at the moment it should not be a major task to add sufficient running rigging.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Thistle17

[Thistle17]

I don't think I have said this before but the rig on this boat is termed a "wish bone" schooner rig. Being just an arm chair sailor and only exposed to daysailers I had to research the rigging. Wikipedia was a decent reference and start point and there is a wonderful picture of a ketch, wishbone rig. The differences I have to address are the following: Atlantis is a schooner rig, it has a taller main than fore mast and it doesn't include a permanent attachment of the wish bone between masts. On the latter note I am motivated to make the wish bone permanently attached at this point. I am thinking this way as most of what I read describes the wish bone permanently attached and the sail is hoisted up in between the arms. So as a result I am going to sketch a running rigging plan and define tethering points on deck and that will further define a more appropriate fife rail.

 

Joe

 

Edited February 14, 2018 by Thistle17
spelling

[druxey]

Just catching up on your disasters and triumphs, Joe. Kudos for sticking with it despite setbacks. Your model is looking great.

[Thistle17]

Thanks druxey and all others. I am beginning to think I may actually finish this model on time. I continue to find parts missing and poor, very poor instructions to confound my work. After I work up a sketch on running rigging I will tackle machining the aluminum masts and booms taking into account the RC versus the static rigging differences. I have attached a picture of the ketch I came across that is helping me along. In it is a good picture of the way a wish bone is attached and used.

 

Joe

[Thistle17]

The saga continues! In marking out the masts I discovered that the main is about 20 mm too long and the fore is about that dimension too short! I guess I was so happy to have Krick of Germany support me I never checked the measurements. So now the question is can I get away without some surgery. I am concerned that the sail patterns just won't match the stay and mast outlines and look a bit out of kilter. In a cursory check the foreshortened fore has enough "top" clearance that the 20 mm difference will still handle the sail.

 

Secondly I have decided to completely rig it in my shop and transport it to it's final destination with the masts stepped. I have to travel about 35 miles south of Rochester NY and up the side of a very steep and poor road to its final hill top home. Stepping the masts seems the best alternative. Here is how I plan to move forward. We have a great RC shop in our town and they carry an extensive line of DU-BRO fittings for all type of RC models. I was introduced to what is called  "2-56 Push Pull System" that will facilitate shrouds to be made up and then disconnected. The kit comes with crimping sleeves and shrink tubing to dress over the crimps. The kit also comes with nylon coated stainless steel braid of the right diameter as well. For the fore and aft stays I just ordered turnbuckles of the right scale to further enable mast stepping. Some running rigging for the booms will need to be considered (made up and then removed, belayed at site) but should be achievable.

 

In addition, there is a clever mast shroud tightening mechanism built into the kit so I think I can make it all happen.....I hope.

 

The world of RC modeling is a world unto itself. I do have an electronics background but even so there is so much to learn. I am quite relieved that the client wants this to be a static model!

 

Joe  

Edited February 17, 2018 by Thistle17

[Thistle17]

Just completed the jib, fore and main booms (top to bottom view). I ended up cutting up the genoa kit I acquired to get the aluminum material. The booms I had were a different anodize so I chose not to use them. I got to use my recent purchase of a Sherline Vertical Mill to machine all holes and mill of the slot to receive the main boom pivot. While the tasks were basic, I have to say it was a shear joy to perform these simple tasks with the mill. I don't think I would have achieved the accuracy with any other tools in my shop. 

 

Those little silver 'cans' on the jib and fore booms actually have a working swivel at the base to support free movement of the sails under RC control. The instructions and drawings continue to slow progress because of omissions. I am marking the drawings up and moving on.

 

My next task is to extend the fore mast. I will have to cosmetically dress the extra 20 mm addition to hide the extension interface but I think it will all turn out in the end.

 

 

[Thistle17]

In thinking about the fore mast extension, of 20 mm more, I thought of several ways to try to fix the problem. Then I had an epiphany! I realized if I took a brass tube of outside diameter slightly larger than the inside diameter of the mast I might be able to squash it down to fit the "tear drop" shape of the mast extrusion. It took several passes in my workbench vise but I managed to make the round brass tube an oval of correct size to achieve a friction fit inside the mast. I then CA glued about 4 inches of the tube into the mast and then press fit the extension onto the exposed brass tube and CA glued that. It made an almost imperceptible joint. Any CA glue that leaked out was cleaned up with lacquer thinner. I think I can live with the outcome since the model is a static model and the mast will always be under compression when the shrouds are attached.

 

Joe

[Thistle17]

Finished drilling all mast holes, fore and main, and attaching most of the hardware. Shrouds have been fed up through the mast tops and then returned through companion return holes, leaving a small loop at the mast tops. There is an interesting adjustment mechanism built into the design. The loop formed at the top of each mast by the shroud feeds will be attached to an adjusting screw, threaded follower that will ride up/down the adjusting screw. The screw will stretch/relax the shrouds when adjusted. This is what I am hoping will allow stepping the masts for transport. The next step is to prepare the fore, back and between mast stays. The fore and back will be adjusted with some miniature turnbuckles purchased from Harbor Hobbies of California. I ordered some laser cut brass pulleys from this supply house but I think they will not be used due to the scale. My next approach is to swap out all blocks for Syren "you build" blocks of a better scale.

Joe

[Thistle17]

Realized this AM that I may have to address the sails at this point even though I haven't even attempted to step the masts. The fore stay sail is traditionally hoisted on" travelers" up the fore stay as I understand rigging. On the RC version of this model this sail is slipped onto the fore stay as the sail has a "pocket" sewn into it. The same is true of the main stay sail. I have to believe this was a model design decision that deviated from the real life rigging. Otherwise one would have had to unfasten the fore stay to remove the sail. Really! So now I must consider the manufacture of stay travelers to make it appear more realistic. Where oh where do I draw the line?

 

Just as an aside the funny looking sail between the fore and main is called a "fisherman" in some references. The wish bone I have further learned made it easier to haul just the sail and not the gaff (as in a gaff rigged sail). I have further learned that this "boom" could do lots of damage in heavy weather to the main. Seems like a lot of trouble for a bit more effectiveness in light weather.

Joe

[Thistle17]

I find I have to keep educating myself about rigging practices for more modern vessels. So today I searched the web for halyard belaying practices for example. The first and most obvious thing I was reminded of was  that there was no use of pin rails/belaying pins for this era on most vessels. Most vessels had mast or deck cleats and if needed were alternately belayed to rails that were handy. I will ignore the pin rails surrounding both masts and replace all halyard terminations with cleats. It is fortunate that I did not waste the time building the pin rails.

 

So with some trepidation I move forward.

 

Joe

[Thistle17]

I keep ruminating over the transport of the model to its home in the hills surrounding Naples NY. I even measured a cargo van last eve and it only had about 5 feet of head room. So I am convinced now that I have to step the masts and re-rig on site. To that end I have found scale (sort of) turnbuckles for the stays and have found close to scale working shackles that I will use on all stays and shrouds. I have ordered Syren working blocks* to sail hauling and the like. Yes I realize that the wooden blocks were not likely used in this era but the brass ones I ordered just didn't allow an adequate sheave hole. More work for me but the end result will work and be convincing.

 

* In coming to a solution I had to communicate with Syren Ship Model Company about the maximum rigging line I could use with the working blocks I wished to order. In just a few hours I had an answer, my order was placed and shipped. How's that for customer care! It's rare today to see such care of customers!

 

Joe

[Thistle17]

Parts from Harbor Models have been ordered but have yet to arrive. In the mean time I have been trying to come up with a stabilizing jig that will hold the masts when I start the rigging. This "rube goldberg" of a support arm seemed to be a decent solution until I replaced the cut off of fore mast with the full length fore mast. It is unworkable as the model, with mast, sitting on a desk high platform, is over 8 feet tall! This makes for a very unstable mast and an accident waiting to happen. Going back to the drawing board.

[Thistle17]

And so it goes. With another mast support (any resemblance to a sail is purely coincidental) jig made up of scrap birch plywood I now have a much more stable way to hold the mast while I rig the shrouds and fore stay. I used the main cabin opening to build a mounting platform for the mast vertical support. It can be reversed forward to aft to address support for the main mast when needed.

 

I decided to move ahead while waiting for the shackles and have temporarily tethered the shroud lines and fore stay to the deck ring bolts. The use of the Du-Bro Push-Pull System will allow final tensioning in concert with the built in mast tensioning system. This will also facilitate mast stepping for shipment.

[Thistle17]

I have been spoiled by the high standards of today's instruction sets, especially those produced state side. I find that this model has caused me to retrench my work numerous times in part because of very poor instruction/guidance. I have rigged all stay and shrouds (but not soldered them or trimmed them) and have begun working the sails. They have required re-enforcement of the corners that are terminated as in real world sail making. Unfortunately the material provided was dirty and too small to use for all sails. Luckily I found material at a fabric shop that nearly matches the weight, color, texture and thickness of the kit sample. It is drapery liner. I have tried a number of adhesives to apply the cutouts to the sail but they peel off easily. I finally settled on DAP Contact Cement which can be applied with some precision.

Once past this problem I began trying to fit the "Fisherman" sail and the Stay Sail between masts. I quickly observed that the sails do not fit neatly in between masts. Although the mast spacing is accurate (15 13/16 in apart) top to bottom the "Fisherman" has to be trimmed to dress nicely in between masts and the Stay Sail. To compound this the upper corner of this sail does not meet where main mast tethering is located.

 

Luckily the combination of shackles and adjustable Du BRO fittings have saved me from an impending disaster. Pictured below are the shackle and Du BRO adjusters used. The second photo depicts the stage I am at. What is missing in the picture is the 4 foot step ladder I have to use to get to the mast tops!!!!!!

Joe

Edited March 12, 2018 by Thistle17

[Thistle17]

May I say that this type of rig i.e. the wishbone, causes me to pause and wonder why anyone would choose this sail plan in the real world. It is certainly not a one person sailer and I perceive it could be big trouble if weather turns foul in a hurry.

 

Having said that I have been ardently working the sails. I simulated the panel stitching with a #2 pencil and rule. The panel layout was defined on the sail plan and worked out reasonably well. Given that the sail material is a plastic, maybe even ABS film, with what appears as re-enforced fibers it was easy to layout the simulated stitching. A sharp #2 didn't work as well as a round point one.

 

The sail gussets were applied and the sails were fitted with the simulated rivets at each apex. The rivets were actually eyelets that had to be peened over. I did so by using suitable punches and final flattening via vise jaw crimping. The holes for the eyelets were made with a home made punch (dowel with a machined piece of copper tubing in one end). The machining was a simple chamfering of the tubing business end to form a knife edge. It worked well.

 

I am at the point of fitting all sails. I find converting to a static model with simulated hauling and tethering rigging is a bit in conflict with the original intent of the model. I do not wish to over state the issues but if you look at the picture on this page from 2/4 you will see that the sheets forward of the main and fore masts don't have booms. The model does and now I realize this is an artifact of the RC methodology of trimming them on a tack. The sheet ends can't "fly" on the RC version as the controls would have to be synchronized to haul in on one side and let out simultaneously on the other. So now I have to decide how to make them work with the static model as they just float at the sheet base and need some form of tethering to make them look convincing. Also I am trying to add working tackles to the sheet hauling works. Guess what; there are very few to be had out there at the moment.

 

I forgot to mention the main boom I discovered was too short by about 5/8". I cut it to the diagram length but at no time did I measure the length of the main sail at its base against the plan boom length. I again used a piece of copper tubing and CA glued it into the existing boom and attached the extension. Now the sail tensioner works correctly.

 

I am plodding on.

 

Joe

Edited March 21, 2018 by Thistle17
grammar

[Thistle17]

I have to correct my previous statement regarding booms on stay sails. In searching the web last evening to get some idea how the wishbone was attached I ran across a ketch that had booms on both stay sails. My method to attach the booms will deviate somewhat from the parts supplied as they would not hold the booms in a fixed horizontal position in relation to the masts. A picture will be supplied.

 

I also came across a description of the tethering of the wishbone on a real craft that does not reflect the method for the Atlantis. I will have to investigate a bit further.

Joe

[Thistle17]

I am getting to think I am over thinking wishbone rigging. Here is a recently found picture that depicts the wishbone attached to the fore and main masts, not the sail as the model would have me implement. Now I have to decide whether to live with the model implementation or change it over. Hmmmm!

Joe

[Thistle17]

I think I have finally gathered the rules of wishbone rigging. I wish to clarify that wishbone "rigs" can apply to booms or gaff rig configurations. The whole idea of a wishbone is that it stretches the sheet and remains taught with force applied downward for it's use in place of a boom. For a gaff it also forces the sheet to remain taught and upward driven. In this case it does apply extreme force to the trailing mast top. It also creates additional stresses on the rigging in a jibe.  For the same square foot of sail it purportedly offers higher speed under light winds. It is loved by some and spurned by others. It also eliminates the weight of hauling a gaff to its position.

 

As a result of a more focused search I have learned it is always fixed directly to the forward mast to which it is associated. The wishbone is tethered to the opposite mast with a down-haul line. It is or may be attached with an up-haul line (for trim) to the opposite mast. The sheet is hauled to it's position up thru the wishbone opening with a peak down-haul to the deck or mast. The apex of the inverted triangle sail is somehow tethered at the apex of the free end of the wishbone via another down-haul line I presume.

 

On this later point I will not add a down haul lineto this apex, but will tie it off as in the manner intended for the RC version of the model. I think I finally understand at least the basics of this rig.

 

Joe