Potvis by Arjan68 - 1:50 - A Dutch flute ship loosely based on Mantua's Dutch Whaler

[Arjan68]

So, here is the restart of my build log. It used to be in the kit build section, but because I'm actually designing my own ship I think a scratch log is better suited.

 

My goal is to reconstruct a 17th century dutch flute ship. The keel and frames are from the Mantua Dutch Whaler, whis is the only kit available of a flute. And that will be the only parts of the kit I'll use (okay, perhaps also some of the wood).

 

The reason for this almost complete redesign is that the kit has a lot of flaws. I will not even start to mention them because it is a long list. Some research made me find the original museum model on which the kit was based. I will try to create a ship that looks more like the original, but with some of my own design added in.

 

I'm not aiming for a 100% historically accurate build, but will try reproduce the shapes and characteristics of a dutch flute.

 

Arjan

[Arjan68]

Here's a short update of the build so far.

 

After assembling the keel an bulkheads, the first change was to the layout of the decks. Between the quarter deck and upper deck there was a strange-looking extra deck. I assume that the helmsman was supposed to be beneath it, but then the position would be too low relative to the rudder.

This deck is not found on any of the paintings and drawing of flutes, so I decided to remove it and create a more standard layout of quarter and upper deck. The helmsman will now be standing on deck, right behind the mizzen mast. This is much more common for dutch vessels of this era.

 

The original layout. Looks a bit messy:

 

 

And the result after the makeover. Here you can also see that I gave the main and mizzen masts a slight backward angle. The kit had them straight.

 

 

Next: planking the decks

[Arjan68]

I always try to plank the decks before I start the hull planking. This way I have much better access and clamps can be used if needed.

The deck planking is made of 4 x 1mm planks. This translates to 20cm wide planks in 1:1 which is a reasonable size. I don't know what kind of wood it is, but the color is very nice. It's less yellow than on the pictures. They were made by lamplight.

For the caulking I used thick black paper. I hadn;t tried this method before but I like the result very much !

 

 

All decks finished. The gratings are made from the parts provided by the kit, but with a very different layout.

 

[Arjan68]

Next: the bulkheads. These are my own design, but based on examples on the replicas of the PRins Willem and the Batavia that were built here in Holland.

The main challenge was to make the planks follow the curve of the deck. This is almost impossible with the veneer I'm using, so the solution was to cut them "pre-bent" out of a sheet of veneer. The result looks nico, so I will keep this trick in my book for following projects 

 

Cutting bent planks

 

Work in progress. The bulkheads are 1,5mm plywood covered with veneer.In this case pear veneer is used.

 

The end result with reference coin

 

And the current situation. Except for the hinges and locks on the doors the bulkheads are finished.

 

Edited February 16, 2013 by Arjan68

[Arjan68]

The last thing I changed was the shape of the bow. It was too rounded, so I gave it a more natural look by making it more straight towards the keel. Only a small amount of wood was removed, but it makes a big difference in appearance.

 

Before nose correction

 

After nose correction

 

So this is the current state of my project. Next I will start the major task of planking the hull. This will be a big challenge because the flute ships have a unique hull shape, especially at the stern. But more about that in the next updates.

 

If some steps need more detail or explanation, just let me know. I did not want to spend too many postings on the past work.

 

Arjan

[Michiel]

you for sure belong in this section, good to see you back,

 

Best,

Michiel

[BertUS]

Arjan

I've seen and read the thinking process to rebuild this model (or is it modificate it?) on the Belgium forum so, I really like the transforming from a kinda bad kit to a good model. 

[Arjan68]

I've seen and read the thinking process to rebuild this model (or is it modificate it?)

 

I call it a redesign. A rebuild or modification implies that it will look like the original, which will not be the case. Even some of the frames will be modified in the next phase. It's like taking some car's chassis and then build up a complete new and better  car around it. Hey, let's call it a custom ship   Hmmm... should I chop the decks to make it look cooler ?

 

I forgot to mention one more change that was made: the mizzen mast is moved forward approx. 2cm. In its original location there would be no space for the helm,, which is a bit inconvenient on a ship. Also, the new location is more like what can be seen on drawings and paintings of flute ships.

 

Here is a picture of the original model that the kit was based on. It is property of the Rotterdam Maritime museum. I hope that my finished model will look a bit like it (you have to aim high  ). 

 

 

 

 

[wim500]

Arjan, what's left of the kit in the meanwhile?, welcome at the scratch section where this ship belongs.

[Anja]

Hello Arjan,

 

Although we haven't spoken on the former MSW ..... Welcome back!

 

I love the Dutch ships of the 17th century. So I will follow your build from now on.

She's looking great, and as far as I can tell you certainly have the skills to make her look like the one which is displayed in the Maritime Museum.

 

Good luck and take care,

 

Anja

[Michiel]

well, and the best wishes, hope you had a nice day

[john46]

Arjan,

 

This is an impressive built, partly due to your modifications. It is a pleasure to look at the pictures.

 

Regards

John

[Arjan68]

Thank you John. I hope that I can keep up to the expectations for the rest of the build. Compared to some of the other projects I'm just a beginner.......

 

At the moment I'm trying to make some decisions about reshaping the hull. The shape of some of the frames seems a bit wrong. It's like the kit maker made some modifications to make it suitable for "horizontal planking".(straight from bow to stern as if it is a house). Of course I'm not going to do that   

[Foremast]

Arjan,

you're doing a very interesting build.  I'll follow your work .... perhaps my next model will be a Dutch fluyt, so ... I'll see every step of this log!

You said Mantua has the only kit available about Fluyts. I know another brand with this kind of ship in its catalogue: Euromodel has the "Derfflinger". It's an old project based on the drawings attached to an old book ("Risse von schiffen ...") . If you're interested, here is a description of that kit http://www.euromodel-ship.com/derfflinger.html#axzz2MCyAW1AF

[Arjan68]

You said Mantua has the only kit available about Fluyts. I know another brand with this kind of ship in its catalogue: Euromodel has the "Derfflinger"

 

Yes, I know this model, but in my opinion it is not a real flute. But more important: I think it's ugly.

[Foremast]

Yes, I know this model, but in my opinion it is not a real flute. But more important: I think it's ugly.

I agree 

[DSiemens]

I like flutes as well I think they are neat looking with all the decks. Makes me curious as to why you would build a ship if you think its ugly. Also I have heard the term kit bashing used before and I'm wondering if that would be what this type of build is considered in that your taking a kit and changing it to build something different. Either way it's still scratch. It sounds as though you have it all planned and know exactly what you want. I look forward to seeing your ship progress.

[amateur]

I like flutes as well I think they are neat looking with all the decks. Makes me curious as to why you would build a ship if you think its ugly. Also I have heard the term kit bashing used before and I'm wondering if that would be what this type of build is considered in that your taking a kit and changing it to build something different. Either way it's still scratch. It sounds as though you have it all planned and know exactly what you want. I look forward to seeing your ship progress.

 

Knowing Arjan a little bit longer now, I guess part of the modifications will grow in his head while building

 

Derflinger is a 1930-ies reconstruction by Loeff, who had almost no acces on reliable sources on Dutch shipbuilding.

It is in no way a good depiction of a Dutch Fluyt.

The Mantua is based on a model, and in that way, it is a model of a model, and the kitmaker/builder does not know how relieable the original model is. So modifications to get the thing closer to 'how a fluit should look like' is a sensible strategy.And yes, kitbashing is used for building a modified kit. (Although I'm not quite sure whether a redesign of a kit will still go under the name of bashing, in my view bashing is more like replacing ugly metal gunports and doorhinges with better looking ones )

 

Anyway, this fluit will be very good looking

 

Jan

[Arjan68]

 Makes me curious as to why you would build a ship if you think its ugly.

 

I was referring to the other flute kit of the Derflinger. I don't like the lines of that ship. But I do like the hull of the Dutch Whaler !

 

 

 Either way it's still scratch. It sounds as though you have it all planned and know exactly what you want.

 

Yes, it is a scratch build. The only difference is that I started with the laser-cut frames from the kit instead of making them myself from the drawings.

 

Ehm, well.... no, I don't know exactly what I want yet     When I started, I only knew what changes I would make to the deck layout and the position of the masts. The rest is made-up during the build. This is not how it's usually done and yes, it can lead to some unforeseen problems. But those will be tackeled when encountered.

 

What I hope to achieve is something inbetween the kit and the original model,

[Dida]

Nice build, Arjan. I like your approach to the building process.

[Arjan68]

The first plank is dry-fitted to the hull. The main challenge here was to get the right curve in it. The sheer of a hull is very important for the overall looks.

So far I'm satisfied with the result.

 

 

 

If done right, it is a smooth curved line from all angles.

[DSiemens]

Ok I'm understanding better.  I'm still a bit of a newb with this style of building as I've always done the smaller ships in bottles.  I hope to get into a good kit soon.  I guess it is hard to have "everything" planned out on a scratch build.  That's the fun in it though.  

[Arjan68]

This build will be stopped.

 

It turns out that the shape of the frames is wrong in many places. Apparently the kit was only loosely based on the original model. I made the mistake of not doing proper research before starting (as always too eager to start something new   ). Some time and materials wasted, but on the other hand I learned a lot about fluyt ships and some new techniques 

 

Soon I will start a new build. This time a full scratch, based on real plans. So stay tuned.

 

Arjan

[hopeful]

Hi Arjan,

 

Was not familiar with this type vessel, interesting. Thanks for posting the museum photo. I may have missed it but what is the scale of your build. Yes, I missed it. Note it is 1:50.

 

Will follow your as you move along.

 

BFN

 

Cheers,

Hopeful aka David

 

“there is wisdom in many voices”

 

Completed: Sharpie Schooner (Midwest) Posted on kit build log.

Current: Sultana (MSW) Updating the build log and continuing on with the build

 

Next: Lady Nelson (Amati Victory)

Edited March 25, 2013 by hopeful

[Jean-Pierre]

Hello Arjan.  It's been some time now.  Any progress in sight? I hope to make some more progress next week.  Still on the hull.  Good luck and I hope to read more from you

[amateur]

Post #23 states that he will stop this build. I'm pretty sure he was serious about that.

 

He is active on a Dutch/Belgian forum, and over there he has some fame for starting builds that grow more and more ambitious as they go along. But many of them come to a point where the quality Arjans wants is not delivered by the kit he is using.

And then there is some ominous post 'that this build will be stopped'.

 

At the moment he is working on a next (Corel-kit-based) build: A Dutch VOC-ship, based on the Prins Willem.

 

To be honest, I expect him to stop that build also, and turn to proper 'scratch build'....

 

Jan

[Blue Ensign]

It must be very frustrating not to be getting the satisfaction from a build time after time, also for those who get interested in following a build only to find it abruptly ends.

 

This one did look interesting and you look to produce a very nice finish to your work Arjan, I do hope you find a project that sustains your interest thro' to completion.

 

B.E.

[Jean-Pierre]

Quite frankly, I do not underqstand why he stopped this beautiful build: the choices he made in modifying the kit are quite pertinent and the build was going to produce a superb model indeed.

 

So Arjan was put off by the hull planking.  Now he is right to say that the kit does not provide the material to plank the hull as it should be: While a good modeller like Arjan (and a not so good one like me) will want the planks to run in a sweep from stem to stern, Sergal suggest that the planking would start with a horizontal plank at deck level!  And as they did not want to make the kit too difficult, they provide for the two plank layers wood strips of 6mm wide.  As such, these strips are impossible to bend laterally to get the hull "sweep".

 

Now as Arjan claims to be a scratch builder, he could easily have built the first layer like he wished with the kit strips.  For the second layer however, he might have chosen to buy some 4mm wide strips.  Or as I did, he may have split the 6 mm planks in two, which would give full size planks of 15cm wide (at the claimed scale of 1/50) or 18 cm of course (at the kit announced scale of 1/60).  A little narrow, I admit, but still perfectly acceptable.

 

So I regret that such an promising project has been abandonned (at a cost of 300 € kit price);

 

Of course I regret that decision as I think that starting a build log implies that you will bring your readers to the end of the project.  A build log is therefore an incentive to go on building.  But the hobby has to remain funny, and who am I to write this while I still have a 3/4 finished Flying Fish on my desk?  My compliments also to Dragon65 who made what have to be the final models of the Charles W.Morgan, and of trhe Chaperon steamer, none of which were able to sustain his interest to the end.  Too bad!  So I'll definitely have to restart the Flying Fish when my own Dutch Whaler is completed.

[amateur]

No, it's not the way of planking itself taht put him off, it is that the

form of the hull itself does not correpond to the form it should have (at least, according to Arjan).

That requires substantial reshaping of the frames, which made him stop the build.

 

I am with you on the point of starting implies at leastthe intention to carry through to the end.

Although: there can be many reasons why a once started build does not continue.

Lack of time, money, inspiration etc. can all be reason to stop and do not return for a while.

 

Jan