Glue Recommendations

[Garward]

Ahoy J.Pett   

When using СA it is more best not to make mistakes as it is difficult to eliminate them. I spoiled not one detail while learned to use this glue  . Usually, if it is necessary to disconnect incorrectly pasted СA a detail, I on connection several times smear acetone, it dissolves СA.

[JPett]

Can the Acetone be used to remove it from the side being finished

[Garward]

Acetone can be used generally before drawing on a detail of a finishing covering. It can spoil this covering. This restriction for acetone application.

[Ulises Victoria]

My personal opinion here. I don't like CA in my shipbuilding and use it only very seldom. For gluing wood to wood nothing beats Titebond or Gorilla WOOD glues. For gluing dissimilar materials, I use a glue called Resistol Repair Extreme. Someone posted in another post the American equivalent of this glue. Sorry I can't remember. Another possibility is epoxy, which is really strong, but messy and I feel too much of it is wasted.

I bought a tube of Weldbond which I haven't really tried it on my ship so I can't comment on it yet.

[augie]

Don't sell epoxy short.  It's very strong.....really stronger then we need for most ship applications.  What I like about it is that it comes in a variety of 'set' times from 5 minutes up to several hours.  Also, the viscosity can be easily adjusted with isopropyl alcohol (70 or 91% 'rubbing alcohol') and of all the glues it is the easiest to clean away excess.  Just use that same alcohol and it will be gone from surrounding areas----completely.  Yes, the fact that you need to mix it does generate some waste.  But you can mix very small quantities on a piece of wax paper with a toothpick and you're all set.

 

One other thing.  If you leave the component parts of the epoxy in their original containers after opening they last a very long time.  If they thicken while sitting on the shelf you can return them to their original viscosity by heating for a few seconds in the microwave (be sure and take the top off). 

 

Like most of us, I use PVA and CA's 90% of the time.  But the last time I counted I have about 9 different adhesives in the shop that can come in handy like JB Weld for metal-to-metal and RC 56, a clear drying glue that is very slow setting and excellent for glazing applications where other adhesives tend to fog acetate 'glass'.    Ya never know what's going to come up .

 

Some of the railroad guys are masters with glue!

Edited April 30, 2013 by Augie

[JPett]

Ahoy Mates

 

I will second Augie’s comments. I use very little but in my opinion, nothing beats Epoxy for a solid bond between dissimilar materials. Yes, it is messy, requires additional prep but once dry, its strength cannot be beat.  

 

 I would add that it is best to ruff up anything to be bonded and clean it with alcohol, just not 71% isopropyl alcohol. It contains oil, which 91 or 99 do not. Mixing it on wax paper also might actually improve its sand-ability, which is much better then CA even if you do not. Use toothpicks to apply very small amounts precisely. I have added wood dust, plastics, fiberglass and many other things to change the properties of epoxy in my lifetime. Pigments can be also added to color joints that will be seen creating interesting effects.  

 

Right now my glue use is 90% PVA, 5% CA, 5% all other products including epoxy.

 

 

[JerseyCity Frankie]

While sourcing materials for a ship model restoration project I came across this website for an outfit that supplies the bookbinding and Fine Art restoration community. They have a retail store in Brooklyn N.Y. and also sell online. They deal in a lot of glues intended for the Fine Art business that would work perfectly for ship modelers, particularly those worried about archival longevity. http://talasonline.com/  is their URL.

 

Under "adhesives" they have TWELVE subcategories! Most of these are for the chemist who will be mixing his or her own goo for whatever reason, but its nice to know where you can find, should you ever need it, what appears to be every sort of sticky substance under the sun all in one location. No Cyano though, this stuff is decidedly Old School.

 

Under the category "Animal Adhesives" there are eight different products including hide glue fish glue and gelatin. Including Isinglass!  http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_listing.cfm?ClientID=15&CategoryFullID=106

 

 

Since were on the subject I should mention that when I first got a bottle of PVA glue intended for bookbinders, I never looked back at any Elmer's product. In New York City the art supply stores carry this glue, but for no good reason I can fathom they don't stock it in the "glue" section with all the other adhesives. Its always off by itself in the "bookbinding" section. Which is a shame since if Elmer's is a "6" (and that is being generous) the PH neutral P.V.A. bookbinding glue is a "10" and only costs about a dollar more. Why is it better? Hard to say. It just works better and you notice the difference when you use it.

[JPett]

Ahoy Frankie

 

Nice link, very informative. I liked the Sturgeon Glue but not the price  

 

I found this in regards to the book binding glue

http://www.utrechtart.com/Lineco-White-Neutral-pH-Adhesive-Glue-for-Book-Binding--Collages-MP41492-i1015548.utrecht?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=41493&gclid=CJzTqq2A9bYCFYHe4AodmwoAHA

 

Is this what you are using.

 

PS: I have found memories of Jersey City. I worked for Langer's son (Langer trucking) back in the day

Edited May 1, 2013 by JPett

[Modeler12]

I am another epoxy believer. 
 

Shelf life: I have a gallon container of resin (half full) that I have had for at least 10 years. The hardener likewise lasts 'forever'.

Usage: I use the five minute epoxy most often and use a toothpick to mix a tiny amount on a piece of scrap wood. 

Strength: As mentioned, epoxy is one of the strongest to bond almost anything to anything. Metals no problem as long as they are clean. It is used in aircraft, spacecraft and lots of other crafts including sail boats.

Gap filling: Once cured, the epoxy itself is very strong (which is not true of most of the other glues mentioned). Because of that, epoxy can be very useful when bonding parts that have a gap or sloppy fit. I am using it right now to hold spars to the mast.

 

Once epoxy is cured it has to be removed by cutting it away. Hence it is pretty permanent. Even acetone will not do the job in most cases. Methylene chloride works but is awful to work with.

 

Messy? Other than quickly mixing two parts together (as I mentioned above), the mix is no more messy than any other glue (at least in my opinion). The gallon container of slow curing epoxy I have is very fluid and I may have to add a filler (sanding wood dust in most cases) to increase the viscosity. That adds to the 'messiness'?

I will always wash my hands after using it, because I know that the skin of my arms are sensitive to it. But what is messy about that?

[JPett]

Ahoy Jay

 

As another sponsor of epoxy I would offer this and say it can be messy. Is it not more work that can lead to more mess compared to flipping the lip off a bottle of PVA. Epoxy also can be very messy should there be an "OOPs" too. There is no easy water clean up and It is one of those products that can spread like poison ivy if proper care is not put into effect. Due to its extended dry time it can be worst then CA in this respect.

 

I love it but it does have a higher potential to create "mess" and to think otherwise might open a door to a place one does not wish to be. I treat it with the respect it deserves and use it when ever I feel it is needed.   Maybe the correct statement is, it is  "more work"

[Modeler12]

When installing eyebolts epoxy is the best way to go. When I first started modeling I was using CA but quickly found out that the results could be very erratic. Some bolts pulled out with very little force while epoxy always held tight, especially when installed through thin planking. In fact, I ran some experiments and found that the epoxy bonded bolts would actually open up rather than pull out. The force was more than 10 pounds.

 

PVA is no good when bonding metal to wood or itself. Hence, I would not rely on using it for that application.

 

A couple more comments about being messy and time consuming. For me it takes hardly any more time to squeeze out two drops of epoxy and mixing it than grabbing a tube of CA. Once ready I can apply epoxy with the tip of a toothpick where as with CA I have to carefully squeeze out a drop and hope it won't be too much (as happens with all of us). To get CA on your fingers can be a real mess, especially if they are wet or sweaty. Once applied CA cannot be cleaned up with water and requires acetone to dissolve.

 

I do use CA and PVA a lot. But more for applications such as stropping metal or rope to blocks and bonding planking to frames (wood to wood). In those cases they work fine. Even Harold Hahn, the master ship modeler, used epoxy for most of those applications as well.

[augie]

Guys.....I'm telling you....epoxy is so easy to clean off with 91% alcohol before it sets that it's almost a joke.  When I break it out I have a 'rule'..... three bottles---resin, hardener and alcohol.  Never lets me down.

[Modeler12]

Clean up of epoxy with alcohol (I assume you mean the kind that you don't drink, Augie) is indeed easy. Acetone works great and you can use your wife's nail polish remover if you don't have the more 'pure' kind.

 

A drop of acetone will thin the epoxy mix if you think it is too thick (too viscous). Some saw dust will thicken it.  You can also buy the Loctite epoxy with a 60 minute pot life. But I found that a drop of acetone not only thins the mix but lengthens the pot life by quite a bit. Don't use acetone if you want the resin to cure fast. I have not tried alcohol for that purpose, but I assume that small batches will take longer because the solvent has to evaporate before full cure sets in. Likewise if you want to make it black, for example, add a drop of solvent based paint or black powder if you have it (graphite from a pencil). But don't use water.

[Yambo]

I'm also a fan of epoxy - well fan isn't perhaps the right word - but I use it quite a lot especially where it can't be seen. For example I'll almost always use it to strengthen keel/bulkead joints. I thicken it with sawdust, silica or microfibres (which is really nasty stuff and requires a mask to be worn). I do a bit of work on full size boats and epoxy, while being expensive has no real substitute for glueing, fibreglassing, filling etc.

 

If your models are going in the water then epoxy is imho the best coating for a hull and one thing I learned many years ago is how to do holes -drill, fill with epoxy and drill again so that the edges of the holes are treated. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[augie]

Yambo brings up a great point.  You can add sawdust or silica (in the form of what is called 'microballoons') and the epoxy becomes very sandable once dried.  And for waterproofing, it's great.

[JPett]

Ahoy Yambo

 

Thanks for the tip on drilling holes. I can see when using Basswood this process of drilling and filling could allow a very small scale hole with a smooth bore, and sharp defined edges be created.   

 

I am not sure if the hole needs to be completely filled or if just the inside edge coated and then redrilled but will be trying this thank you 

[Garward]

As well as at a model choice - to whom what glue is pleasant!   

[JPett]

Ahoy Garward

 

If you are saying that CA might work here too I would agree. I would still perfer epoxy because you can control its final harness by altering the ratio of hardener. CA is brittle and does tend to chip when drilled.

[Garward]

Ahoy Garward

 

If you are saying that CA might work here too I would agree. I would still perfer epoxy because you can control its final harness by altering the ratio of hardener. CA is brittle and does tend to chip when drilled.

 

And epoxy glues give too rigid connection which tends to cracks over time, especially under the influence of temperature   

[augie]

And epoxy glues give too rigid connection which tends to cracks over time, especially under the influence of temperature   

I have to say I've never seen that happen.  But we each have our own experiences.

[Garward]

I have to say I've never seen that happen.  But we each have our own experiences.

 

I also wrote it, relying on the experience of application of various epoxy glues (not only in construction of models) within thirty years   

[augie]

As I said, we all have our own experience.  I don't use it much on ships.  But I do use it extensively on model airplanes ranging from 1/7 to 1/3 scale and have done so since the 1950's.  These machines are flown and subject to severe stress at ambient temperatures ranging from 10-110 degress F.  Have never seen an epoxy failure on wood to wood bonds.

[Garward]

Probably, we used various grades of epoxy glue, I have generally an experience from the industry. In youth I too was engaged in model aircrafts a little  , at me and now there are a lot of colleagues - aeromodellers, but they generally apply various nitroglues.

[Modeler12]

Epoxy has been used for decades throughout the aircraft industry. If it were true that all epoxies tend to crack with time and temperature than all aircraft would be grounded. 

It is true that you can formulate an epoxy that uses the 'wrong' hardener or ratio and result in a brittle mess, but that is not to say it is true in general. I would agree with Augie that for our purposes we don't have to worry about  the occasional mistake of mixing the wrong batch and I have not experienced any real problems with epoxy due to age and temperature. 

I am now retired after having been involved with advanced composites (which included a lot of epoxy applications) for more than forty years both in R&D as well as production.

[Garward]

Epoxy has been used for decades throughout the aircraft industry. If it were true that all epoxies tend to crack with time and temperature than all aircraft would be grounded. 

It is true that you can formulate an epoxy that uses the 'wrong' hardener or ratio and result in a brittle mess, but that is not to say it is true in general. I would agree with Augie that for our purposes we don't have to worry about  the occasional mistake of mixing the wrong batch and I have not experienced any real problems with epoxy due to age and temperature. 

I am now retired after having been involved with advanced composites (which included a lot of epoxy applications) for more than forty years both in R&D as well as production.

 

I was connected some time with nondestructive testing of quality of with advanced composites (which included a lot of epoxy applications), since then I treat them watchfully   

[augie]

Sounds like we've beat the epoxy horse to death.

[Garward]

By no means, it is a good horse for the purposes. I too sometimes use epoxy glue, but this matter of habit and personal preferences, after all with various materials it is possible to receive very similar results.   

[augie]

But Garwood, we need a new glue to beat up on!

[Garward]

New glues and other materials with interesting properties recently began to appear more and more, it is difficult to follow all this!   

[Modeler12]

New glues and other materials with interesting properties recently began to appear more and more, it is difficult to follow all this!   

Can you give us an example of these new glues? or is this something that is being developed in the Ukraine? I and others, I am sure, would like to know what you have in mind. Are you talking about adhesives or 'glues' that may be of interest to model ship building? Are some of these new materials as versatile as the glues we have been using and talking about? Or is this too difficult to answer?