unsolvable LE TERRIBLE 1693/1670 by Heinrich der Seefahrer - 1/92 - based on the Heller SR

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hello folks,

 

as I am still in the reconvalescence hospital I have to reorder my mind and brain after a little stroke. Due to this I decided to add some fast test project in here, due to the fact, that I'll have no possibility to build - I just can draw (analogue on paper).

 

 

So I bought the book about the recennt exhibition in the Deutsches Technikmuseum (as the German version was not avaible at Amazon) and picked out LE TERRIBLE as a fascinating project. to try my restskills of drawing. The LE TERRIBLE has 14 of the 36pfder gunports and was furnished with 100 - 104 guns. The heller kit is perfect for both - as both have got a 14-gun port 36pounder large gun deck - at the LE TERRIBLE 1670 some more rework onto the hull will have to happen.

 

The half of the other eight ship are present with three drawings - here the little list as we find in where wonderfully enlarged drawings of mostly (T_ransom/G_allion/S_idegallery) and just the very basic facts:

 

POMPEUX 1706/08 (T)

AMBITIEUX 1691 (T/G/S)

BRILLANT 1690 (T/G/S)

PRUDENT 1697 (T/G)

TERRIBLE 1692 (G/S)

FROUDOYANT 1723 (T/G/S)

SOLEIL ROYAL 1669 (T)

SAINT LOUIS 1693 (T/G/S)

 

 

So here we have the side gallery of LE TERRIBLE

 

and the gallion

 

From some distance these both look quite normal but in detail they offer their horrifying character:

 

The anchor bars collumn adding a cerberus, a bizzare monster and snakes converting to leafs.

 

Our beloved Triton is eaten by a horrifyingseamonster thats tails eands in a blind monsters head

 

The figurehead is a monstourous face in a clawended "horror-pancake" guarded by two furies - sa you can see fromout the coin it is a hughe enlagement of these drawings. 

 

The LE ROYAL THERESE seems to be a misidentification as the ink seems to picture the 1670 (68-70gun) LE TERRIBLE as Marc @Hubac's Historian told me.

So by aid of this I want to reconstruate the transoms courronament. 

 

What do we know anout this transom without having the drawing prospect?

 

We will have got to have five tiers - the Upper Dech (UD) is the one under the coronnement with a balcony. I think to add some awning/sunblind (as used to from SAINT PHILIPPE - but as the ship was build at Brest at the Atlantic ocean this feature is questionable, as SP was stationed in the mediteranias sea - so it might be superluous... or authentic baroquelike luxurious?). Then there comes a secomd balcony with  collumns (number?) on the Middle deck (MD) followed by the last row of windows on the Lower Deck (LD). Under this there are the two or four gunports aft. 

 

Courronament

UP (balcony with awning)

MD (balcony with columns)

LD (windows only)

lower transom with gunports (2 or 4) and stern

 

Let's start with the couronnament:

 

Certainly the couronnament will be framed at the sides by the "eaten triton" coming from the side gallery and needs two podestals for the sidelaterns and one for the main laterne - in the middle. So over the courennament there will be a bow up to the stand of the big laterne and on this stand a floral/monstourous mixture mirrowlike on both sides leading up to the foot of the laterne.

 

The 1670th drawing looks like a "structure" surrounded by halbers, pikes, trompets, flags, standarts and other long weapons used contemporary. So my first idea is to sourrounding

 

this copied and horzentalisized face and medusian detail (copied ealiely from the sidegallery) only into a ring of the weapons, flafgs, &ct. 

Or I do take the figure head and "roll it out" so the monstourouse face is guarded by two furies (in a ring of waepons, flags, &ct.)?

 

I also think about taking the fury in the center of the installation on the couronnament and surround it by these dragonheaded snakes ( these leaving the eye craves of the monster) so the ugly bat wings can overshadow the area of the encouonnament and under this a lot of destroyed war goods can build da layer. It is quite freedesigned - is it thought to modern and not contemporary enough?

 

What do our specialists do say?

 

 

( Thanks for our intrest, ( being patient with my shipproject hopping) and I promisse to post more due to the fact that the coloured copy of the side galery is neary ready.) I am happy about any ideas as my brain suffers more than my rest of the body so ceativity has gone into lost - also remembering thinks. So any idea is welcome to me. 

 

If you are interested in the exhibition itself it is in the museum till September 2019 - https://sdtb.de/museum-of-technology/exhibitions/architectura-navalis/

 

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added exhibition's link.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Le Terrible			13488
Nominal Guns	70	NNF-1661
Nationality	Royaume de France
Operator	Marine Royale
Keel Laid Down	10.1669	NNF-1661
Launched	19.9.1670	NNF-1661
First Commissioned	1671
How acquired	Purpose built	NNF-1661
Shipyard	Brest - Brittany	NNF-1661
Constructor	Laurent Hubac	NNF-1661
Category	Second Rate	NNF-1661
National Rate	Deuxième Rang
Ship Type	Ship of the Line
Sailing Rig	Ship Rigged
Wrecked     Dimension              MeasurementTypeMetric EquivalentNNF-1661 Length of Gundeck140' 0"French Feet (Pied du Roi)45.472 (149′ 2″ Imperial) Length of Keel125' 0"French Feet (Pied du Roi)40.6 (133′ 2″ Imperial) Breadth37' 6"French Feet (Pied du Roi)12.0408 (39′ 6″ Imperial) Depth in Hold17' 0"French Feet (Pied du Roi)5.5216 (18′ 1″ Imperial) Burthen1,300Ton   1671Broadside Weight = 524 French Livre (565.5008 lbs 256.498 kg)NNF-1661 Lower Gun Deck26 French 24-Pounder Upper Gun Deck26 French 12-Pounder Quarterdeck/Forecastle16 French 6-Pounder Quarterdeck/Forecastle4 French 4-Pounder   (So I did told rubbish for the 36pounders on the LD)   Source: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=13488	11.5.1678

Edited July 2, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added source correct link.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Here the drawings of the side gallery of LE TERRIBLE I am not a defeatist saying it is not my brst work being done on transparent paper.

This is the prominent monster over the windowss top. 

 

Here drawn though the transparentpaper 

The ugly result - not really happy with this.

 

The hole work in progress. 

 

The shipcat looking on my drawing board and equipment.

 

Then I was able to photocopy the transparent paper in two A4 whitepaper parts  for further colouring it...

 

It isn't yhe blueish greygreen I am looking for

 

but it is some green at all. And I hopefully added the correct shape of framing of the window into the open round. What do you think... beside I am not fast (I have a lot of time in here and I am awaiting in my room to get picked up for therapies.) This luxourious times will be away in the next days when therapy hours are inforced. But my right hand isn't the preciseliest at all!!! The fleur-de-lys are so doodled the French will dehead me... 

There will to be made some detalling in the next days to fix the troubles and to get all the roughness out of the drawing. 

 

 

 

[GrandpaPhil]

Sorry to hear about the stroke.  Get to feeling better and enjoy drawing out Le Terrible.

[druxey]

Hope your recovery goes smoothly, Christian.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Thanks Phil and druxey - I was lucky... a friend of mine said that sounds like a stroke hurry into the emergency room of a hostital and not to your eye-doctor... it was at the very end of the spinalcanal. So I'm happy to lie here and being able to draw and write.

 

But now it is going towards the LE TERRIBLE again. As I tried to  begin at the very top over the bars between the lamps I decided to combine two given elements. The catfish(?) and the dragoon.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Cannot upload pictures...

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

At first I will do some political statement:

Hello friends of the sunbathed baroque shipbuilding!

 

Okay I have clearly overestimated my abilities to reconstruck a complete transom artistically from scatch in a believable baroque manner. So I now have to turn the boat towards some realistic goal. At TERRIBLE this can only be the First Navy's version. 

Contributed to Marc's knowledge* we do have got FOUR contemporary drawings:

Van der Velde

 

vdV believable TERRIBLE official named ROYAL THÉRÈSE.

The bow portside view of RTh - so we got a second view on TERRIBLE as we trust in Marc. 

If we do so than this is also a vdV contemporary drawing and ink of the first TERRIBLE so this comes closer to faith in Marc than he ever believed to become a theological figure... (duck&cover).

 

 

(...pic will follow haven'tgit the book at hand...)

N°5 is the Pierre Puget drawing of the luxuriant transom with figures and one obelisc - as we see on the upper drawings this concept wasn't realized (I think due to the ROYAL LOUIS list problems by the heavy figuration of transom and balconies). But I think the exentric artist will habe saved some of his ideas into the built version. Due to this three as built drawings and the artconcept we have some as good database as with ROYAL LOUIS 1667.

With my oldschool method of transparent paper and pen I hope the catch as much detail out of the vdV-pictures az possible

There is really trouble in front of my to identify  what is the real figure 

behind some flourish curlicule. VdV were both masters in the light imitations ofof details.

But we have some very clear parts we can copy and place! 

 

As often some decoration was recycled at the rebuild I imagine the 1670 TERRIBLE wasn't so devastated that some of her woodwork to sculptures was rescued and reused... So my drawn invest into the 2nd TERRIBLE wasn't wasted work and time. 

 

If we compare the Heller hull to the VdV drawing we can lean back and smile. The interisting features are the combat cloth hiding material covering the men and blocking enemy's line of sight. Battleships allways collect the most modern inventions and the shipbuilders did pick out the redest cherries they could get.

...and the artillery is all bronze cast so no mixture lower decorated iron and sophisticated sculptured bronze ordonance is to be done. (Also the panier is right for me: I also do not retreat even outnumbered {one man and four hulls}

...and b.t.w. my coffeypot says "Daily Dose" not the whiskey bottle[she must be empty fore some future ship in the bottle project for Christmas.)

 

Thanks for your interest, patiente, engagement and kind reaction.

 

Yours Christian Heinrich

 

P.S.:

If we turn the picture just a little bit everything comes back to order...

 

_______

*Do your colleagues at work not believe what your hobby is or have you got a modelship in your bureau?

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

6 hours ago, Heinrich der Seefahrer said:

As often some decoration was recycled at the rebuild I imagine the 1670 TERRIBLE wasn't so devastated that some of her woodwork to sculptures was rescued and reused... So my drawn invest into the 2nd TERRIBLE wasn't wasted work and time. 

Okay let us have some closer look onto the 1st TERRIBLE of 1670's data and we do start with the numbers we do get at https://threedecks.org :

Quote

 

Le Terrible			13488
Nominal Guns	70	NNF-1661
Nationality	Royaume de France
Operator	Marine Royale
Keel Laid Down	10.1669	NNF-1661
Launched	19.9.1670	NNF-1661
First Commissioned	1671
How acquired	Purpose built	NNF-1661
Shipyard	Brest - Brittany	NNF-1661
Constructor	Laurent Hubac	NNF-1661
Category	Second Rate	NNF-1661
National Rate	Deuxième Rang
Ship Type	Ship of the Line
Sailing Rig	Ship Rigged
Wrecked	11.5.1678	NNF-1661

 

Dimensions

DimensionMeasurementTypeMetric EquivalentNNF-1661
Length of Gundeck140' 0"French Feet (Pied du Roi)45.472 (149′ 2″ Imperial)
Length of Keel125' 0"French Feet (Pied du Roi)40.6 (133′ 2″ Imperial)
Breadth37' 6"French Feet (Pied du Roi)12.0408 (39′ 6″ Imperial)
Depth in Hold17' 0"French Feet (Pied du Roi)5.5216 (18′ 1″ Imperial)
Burthen1,300Ton 

Armament

1671Broadside Weight = 524 French Livre (565.5008 lbs 256.498 kg)NNF-1661
Lower Gun Deck26 French 24-Pounder
Upper Gun Deck26 French 12-Pounder
Quarterdeck/Forecastle16 French 6-Pounder
Quarterdeck/Forecastle4 French 4-Pounder
 

Crew Complement

Date# of MenNotesSource
1671409 NNF-1661

3 Commanding Officers

DatesRankNameSource
1672Lieutenant-Général des armées navalesAbraham II Duquesne (1610-1688)ref:6871673Chef d'escadreHector des Ardens (1620-1675)FWIKI3.10.1677 - 11.5.1678Capitaine de VaisseauNicholas Lefèvre de MéricourtEWIKI

1 Flag Officer

DatesRankNameSource
3.10.1677 - 11.5.1678Vice-AmiralJean d'Estrées (Comte d'Estrées) (1624-1707)EWIKI

1 Crewman

DatesRatingNameSource
1672Volontaire de la MarineSimon de Pas (Chevalier de Feuquières) (1655-1692)ref:687

Service History

DateEventSource
28.5.1672Battle of Solebay
28.5.1673First Battle of Schooneveld
4.6.1673Second Battle of Schooneveld
11.8.1673Battle of Texel
11.12.16772nd Battle of Tobago
11.5.1678 Wrecked in central America

 

 

I.

And with thhis very last lin emy hope of the usual reuse of the decorational scuptures are fading away! 

 

 

II.

Lest testify out faith in Marc! He figured out that thje Drawing is a drawing of Terrible - one ogf the first 72-gun-ships of the French Navy!

So we ask Sesamstreet's Count...

 

Lower Gun Deck: 26 French 24-Pounder ( starboard side 13 gun ports in light blue)
Upper Gun Deck: 26 French 12-Pounder (starboard side 13 gun ports in orangebrown)
Quarterdeck/Forecastle: 16 French 6-Pounder (starboard side 8 gun ports in royal blue)
Quarterdeck/Forecastle: 4 French 4-Pounder (starboard side 2 gun ports in green)

__________________________________________________

Total of bronze guns of all calibre:  72 barrels 

One next fearture of identification is the stairway on the shipsboardsside.

the stairway is here  between gunport 7 and 8( counted from stem).

 

Our only problem is appearing in ther lower transom. There are two surplus guns - as we know these ere very often longbarreled guns of the side batteryswifted to attack through the aft gunports.

So van der Velde imagined these two barrels not to let these ports empty or the lids closed?

 

Okay lets repeat this on the port front view of TERRIBLE (1670) to look if we are still om track with this drawing to our faith into Marcs magic abilities.

 

 

Lower Gun Deck: 26 French 24-Pounder ( starboard side 13 gun ports in light blue) but we have got 16 - the ver stemside my have been disappeared due to the perspective before

Upper Gun Deck: 26 French 12-Pounder (starboard side 13 gun ports in orangebrown) - the 13 guns are as we thought they will be.

Quarterdeck/Forecastle: 16 French 6-Pounder (starboard side 8 gun ports in royal blue) instead of 8 we got 13 gunports. 

Quarterdeck/Forecastle: 4 French 4-Pounder (starboard side 2 gun ports in green) on the backdeck we have got 2 guns fore shore a third may be there or some ornamental or catheads part - but there are 5 further gunports on the poopdeck.

 

Let's count together:

16 

14

13

02

05

___

50

So we have got to thake is as double so there she is a 90 - 100 gun ship here and not a 72 barreler. 😲

 

 

 

 So if we look at the numbers for RTh at www.threedecker.org we do get the following information:

Quote

 

Armament

1670Broadside Weight = 710 French Livre (766.232 lbs 347.545 kg)W033
Lower Gun Deck: 10 French 36-Pounder
Lower Gun Deck: 16 French 24-Pounder
Middle Gun Deck: 26 French 18-Pounder
Upper Gun Deck: 24 French 8-Pounder
Quarterdeck: 4 French 4-Pounder

1671Broadside Weight = 608 French Livre (656.1536 lbs 297.616 kg)NNF-1661
Lower Gun Deck: 24 French 24-Pounder
Middle Gun Deck: 24 French 18-Pounder
Upper Gun Deck: 24 French 8-Pounder
Quarterdeck/Forecastle: 4 French 4-Pounder

 

That corresponds quite better to the stemshowing portside view and the factum that we do see three tiers of guns or arrels shadows. So the assingnement to ROYAL THÉRÉSE looks quite logical and so we do lose one source!

 

Further evidence is given by the

much longer stairway showing clearly this ship is a threedecker ! Also the stairway started between LD gunport 8 and 9 - typical design feature?

 

 

And there is a second drawing from the very same piont of view painted:

The stairs are also here starting at the CWL betwen gunport 7 and 8 - clearly showin this is a doubledecker not a three'er!

 

And now to the at least blurriest vdV-drawing:

 

 

 

Where the cacao dot or blood stain is more visiable as the lines... so a good part of my counting is guessiung for the 6pdr and 4 pdr in particular but for the 24 pdr and 12 pdr it is obvies that the number is right but here the stairway is one gunport toward the stem. It is positonated  between gunort N°. 8  and 7 - If the hile number is not to be shiftef to the stem as the encloses empty gunport N°1 is closes and due to this not to be seen. So the answer of the wrong and wrigth decission for the placment of the staiirway is not at it's very end.

 

So we can see the half of the pictures given to us as TERRIBLE 1670 by Marc is proven as rigth by counting the tiers and guns. One is defently not TERRIBLE 1670 - it may be a drawing of ROYAL THÉRÉSE or some other three decker. Thje fourth drawing is the most specteular one as it may have the most evidence but we are unable to see it. 

 

So what we do need some better reproduction - and I got the information from the Albertina in Vienna that a repicturion of the ROYAL LOUIS will cost about €80,- (by today: US$ 89,03/AUS$ 190,9/CAN$ 117,8) without p&p. 

 

So my question to Marc is if he knows where these two of three (the best bow/portside vies is at the NMM) drawings of interest are stored recently.

 

 

Thanks for your intrest and enjoy your rest of the weekend!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added text.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hello again - as my job is it to look in to people minds (not brains! I'm not a serial killer or neurosurgeon) I looked into my own and figured out something interestin. Perchance you are interested into this thoughts, too?  There is an evel trap in our mind I figured out... we would like to see something matching to our own anticipations and so our brain "changes" reality and by this it trickily makes thinks fitting to thoughts. 

 

Our eyes say:"These two pictures do fit together - that is easily to see!" because we estimate if the front is high the back has also to be like this - a high front and a high end do correspondent to our wishes.

 

But when we take the other comparing drawing we say: "Hmmm... this two drawings from the front can never show to me the identical ship - that is impossible!"

 Our brain tells us:

"If the red drawing matches to the backside of the other drawing the sepia one can never fit - it is some big frigat or some unimportand little Dutch 50-gun ship!"

 

But then I compared the both sepia drawings directly - and as I am some grumpy old rivet counter I counted the gun barrels and alternativly the lids, too, we figure out that there are a plenty of similarities in number of guns and lids.

Due to the perspective the tree headlamps in the front view merge into a cluster - they are not nicely seperated that looks strange to our eyes. The angele of view changes in the acters perspective from a low one (in a boat?) to a high one looking directly into the 24 pounders muzzle by this the frontview looks smaller.  This perspective lets the hull appear a plenty much taller in the transom view. 

 

That was the story behinde it - and the reason why I countet the barrels. There is one new question reaching the surface of my mind:

 

are their stairways on both sides of the hull when the French Navy adopted woodel stairs instead of simple rope ladders?

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Okay, so in reference to Chris's post just above:

 

Winfield and Roberts identify the first ship as very likely, the Terrible, and not the Royal Therese.  Believe me, I have no magical abilities, but I trust their reasoning in making that identification.

 

The second ship, the three-decker, is La Reyne.

 

The third portrait is one that I personally believe to also be the Terrible, and not the Royal Therese, as it is often labeled.  In my view, although the general aspect seems lower in the water than the first portrait (starboard quarter view), the guns match up, and certain details of the stern and quarters appear to correspond.

 

The Royal Therese has a very distinct appearance.

 

The very unclear starboard bow portrait of a large two decker may also be the Terrible.  I suspect that it is.  Unfortunately, the image is just too vague to read for detail.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

As TERRIBLE is a quite far way project please do not be too disappointed if some progress is far away. The first thing I have to do is to lay my hand on good enlargable copys of the three relevant van de Velde drawings. After this I buy a

small clear glas table to copy the lines by illuminating the plan and transparent paper from below. So this is step A. Afterwards the drawings have to be turned into proper technical drawings of a 2D kind... 

 

So this will consume some time.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hello colleagues!

 

As the SAINT PHILIPPE 1693 gets more and more a start the 23 year older TERRIBLE doesn't want to be forgotten.

 

But the really important questen is:

 

TO WHAT NAME HAVE YOU REALLY BE BAPTISTED!?!?!? 

 

As the 1670 decoration is much more straightforward than the 1693 one. I voted for the three van de Velde drawings to get in this reconstruction's drawing and testfit modelling project on the next Heller hull.  I think I will figure out some standards for the work on the I. and II. Sunking's Navy favouring the older one due to her sculptural decoration and these link between Dutch and French style. 

 

There are some unsolved questions about the ordonance. 

 

We do have got on both vdV-ink drawings following evidence (and open questions) :

 

QD: 5guns/5ports

 

Back: 4 guns/4ports

UD: 13 guns/13 ports

MD: 14 guns/14 ports

LD: 15 guns/16 ports

 

Transom 0 guns/4 ports 

 

B'h' B'h: 0 guns/? ports

 

EDIT:

4ports/0guns for the blh' blh' but we do see a very very Dutch style V-shaped construction. With a (crown or) turban wearing person definitive on a horse a the figurehead. ROYAL DUC The vdV drawings are full of such incredible detailling you only do catch on the fourth or seventh look on these fine lines. 

 

These do add up to a minimum of 51 guns per side - so it is a very early 102 gun ship. 😳 But this colliding with the notes in

 

 

on page 15 there is only one TERRIBLE of 1678 construction by L. Hubac constructed

 

Length 148 ryl. frc. Feet**

Beam 36 rff

Draft 17 6 rff

 

The battery 

16 × XXXVI ryl. frc. pound.'

12 × XXVIII rfp

20 × VIII rfp

4 × IV rfp

 

 

So we have got only 80 guns instead of 102 barrels. Terrible problem. 

 

The pictures wre usually named as ROXAL THERESE - but this didn' t fit to the numbers either:

 

Built in 1668 in Toulon by G. Rodolphe

L: 142 rff

B: 36 rff

😧 17 rff

 

The battety was of 76 guns (heaviest an un onown number of XXIV rfp). 

 

When searching the list for a ship coming close to the 102 guns there only is the by Landström made popular couloured variation of this decoration plan of the 

 

DAUPHIN ROYAL in 1667 with its 100 guns - but obviously she had had some completly other kind of decoration less Dutch and completly the French style was developed. So we are right to look for some older ship and do not find anything... 

 

Also the SOLEIL ROYAL (in a typical 60th Landström colouring her in too much blue) of 1669 doesn't have the numbers (110 guns with 112 ports) and the simplyfied decor we are after. 

 

Okay then let's follow the popular Wikipedia way with this:

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Royal_Duc_(1668)

 

There are the wikipedia data fitting to the pictures but not to my printed source above. 

Armament:

104 guns: 16 x 36-pounder long guns + 14 x 24-pounder long guns on lower deck 30 x 18-pounder long guns on middle deck 26 x 8-pounder long guns on upper deck 18 6-pounder long guns on quarterdeck and forecastle

 

And at page 310 under DIVERS DÉCORS DE VAISSEAUX 1670-140we do find La  REINE (ex ROYAL DUC) we fo find the following well known drawing:

 

But by leafing through the sides I wasn't able to figure out any list with REINE/REYNE/ROYAL DUC in it. 

 

 

But it must be a First Sunking's Navy ship as the decor looks like but most important the cote of arms do show the red and gold Navarra symbol*** and this was changed in in the mid 70th****. Officially it was in use from Henry III. 1589 when King Henry IV. of Navarra became King Henry III. of France untill 1790 when the revolution destroyed any monarchy symbolism. But very early in his reign Louis XIV. decided only to use the three golden fleur-de-lis on a lapislazuli blue shild as the French cote of arms. (Read, memorised and forgot the exact date.) 

 

So if anybody may have his Winfield's SHIPS OF THE FRENCH NAVY 1620-1691 at hand could you kindly double check these numbers - mine is some in the pile of boxes ready for removal. 

 

 

So that's a real pitty to deal with a working pair of drawings that doesn't fit to any of the given ship's data sheets of the 70th. 🤔 Looks problematic. 

 

Here we can see both drawings in the LD side by side:

 

So there are 16 ports and I would say 30 guns in the LD of the bow portside view as the stem port was used for firing to the front. So this cooperates  with the starbord's stern view counting 15 barrels - this isn't helpful for the identification of the ship but due to the cote of arms I think it will be best to stay with a launch date between 1666 and 1679. So if it is LE REYNE I would call her ROYAL DUC (btw meening "royale duke" - a title of the king) as she was rebaptisted on the  24.VII.1672 and as she took action in the two battles of Schooneveldt in the Anglo-Dutch War with her original name. 

 

If we do figure out she is the ROYAL THERESE I would call her by her older name SAINT ESPRIT (untill 1671) due to the first baptisted name accordingly featuring the older type of the cote of arms what may be altered with a rebaptistion. 

 

 

 

@Hubac's HistorianHistorian how do we "get this cow from the ice" (as we do say in Germany when you have to solve a complex problem)? I do not trust Wikipedia very much and would like to prefere Jean Boudriot - but his data from 1995 may be overtaken by  newer evidence? 

 

______

*royal French pound = 489,5 g 

 

**royal Frei foot = 324, 8mm

Interestingly the Back's guns did have round ports to fire on the quater deck - firing on an enemy boarding party or against mutiny??? 

 

*** "Gules, a cross, saltire and orle of chains linked together or, in the fess point an emerald vert. "

 

****our 70th the important time... 😁

 

*****

https://www.agh.qc.ca/articles/?id=20

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
continuing and finalising the build of the article

[Hubac's Historian]

I understand the confusion because the presentation of the stern and quarters is so similar, among these ships, but the ship you are picturing in the post above is the 102 gun La Reyne.

 

So, just to be clear:

 

Almost certainly Le Terrible of 1670:

Probably also Le Terrible of 1670:

Possibly Le Terrible of 1670????:

Definitely La Royal Therese:

Definitely La Reyne:

 

As a side note: La Reyne is the closest known corollary to Soleil Royal.  Same yard, same designer, built a year apart, and only slightly shorter in length and breadth.

 

The sheer presence of SR would have been very similar to this vessel.  Perhaps, she was a little bit taller at the stern in 1670, if she carried a poop royal deck.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Hubac's Historian

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

2 hours ago, Hubac's Historian said:

I understand the confusion because the presentation of the stern and quarters is so similar, among these ships, but the ship you are picturing in the post above is the 102 gun La Reyne.

 

So, just to be clear:

 

Almost certainly Le Terrible of 1670:

Probably also Le Terrible of 1670:

Possibly Le Terrible of 1670????:

Definitely La Royal Therese:

Definitely La Reyne:

 

As a side note: La Reyne is the closest known corollary to Soleil Royal.  Same yard, same designer, built a year apart, and only slightly shorter in length and breadth.

 

The sheer presence of SR would have been very similar to this vessel.  Perhaps, she was a little bit taller at the stern in 1670, if she carried a poop royal deck.

 

Thanks Marc, great stuff like allways!

 

But are we dealing "still" with a REYNE or a ROYAL DUC at these pictures? 

[Hubac's Historian]

They are one and the same.  The ship was launched as Le Royal Duc, and re-named La Reyne in 1671.  At that time, I think it likely that the entire stern and quarter galleries might have been altered for a more sober ornamental program.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Thanks Marc, so these three poctures do open a great possibility (and temptation) to invest a Heller hull into the ROYAL DUC... 

 

 

If we do deal with 1670 TERRIBLE the very flat and Dutch appearance of this nearly 90° angle of view is of extreme intrest in contrast 

 

changing to the typical vdV viewing angle making the hull's side suddenly becoming a wooden wall. 

The couronnament seems to be wearing a cruel to watchbhead (Medusa?) surrounded by the ring of trumpets spears flags helbarts and other terrible stuff for warfare. Beside this and down to the floor of the handrail of the first tier's balcony are two sculptures on the corner of the transom and QG. 

Between the windows of the lower tier ar stanchions wedge shaped holding the balkony above. Below any of this a curtain is imitated and innthe very middel a royal cote of arms. 

The QG gives only ane tier and an elaborated roof to us the deck below is only represented by three framed windows not becoming integrated into the QG at all. compared to other desings a bit boring. 

 

We do get a compensation for this by the sculpture atbthevhull/transomncornen holding something infront of her stomach. A box - so she is a Pandora? This may fit to the terrific content in her box. 

 

This drawing of the portside sculpture doesn't give much to us idea how she was shaped. 

 

So I would like to give her this figure holding her hand before her sluggy breast symbolizing the horror of getting old - as a first guess. 

 

TERRIBLE's figure head looks like a seahste with a rider -, behind it there is a sheep's fur to preserve the gallions highest tier from damage. 

 

All these detailling isn't enouvh to start a reasonable reconstruction of TERRIBLE so we can close this thread as "unsolvable" and do turn to ROYAL DUC to look if I can figure out the same as Cederic with his REYNE  was able to figure out. 

 

Marc gave me the most important note very humble as a "dide note" as he calls it:

"La Reyne is the closest known corollary to Soleil Royal.  Same yard, same designer, built a year apart, and only slightly shorter in length and breadth.

 

The sheer presence of SR would have been very similar to this vessel.  Perhaps, she was a little bit taller at the stern in 1670, if she carried a poop royal deck."

 

Sobwe can save the half of our work and evidence shifting both over to the ROYAL DUC as a solution of our investment in time and research. 

[Hubac's Historian]

I have always thought that La Reyne was the most suitable subject for a Heller SR conversion project.  The three broadside drawings of the ship, together with the survey drawing of the stern provide more than enough information to represent her with a pretty high degree of accuracy.

 

Cedric has chosen an interesting and extremely challenging path; he is re-locating decks, guns and wales.

 

Much of that effort is in anticipation of creating the particular head structure of these First Marine ships, which is quite different from that of the late 1680’s

 

The head will be quite difficult to construct, given the existing Heller architecture, but not impossible.  The other significant decision is whether to scrap the kit upper bulwarks, and simply construct everything above the main deck from scratch.

 

It can be done either way, I think, but it may actually be easier to go the full-scratch route.  It would be great to see where Cedric  is at with all of this, but I know he is quite busy with professional and family life.