Cutty Sark by NenadM

[NenadM]

@ Sudomekh

 

I must ask you for little attention, please do not misunderstand me

 

I am very pleased if you put comments and pictures that are connected to concrete post or detail of building which is shown or discussed in concrete post, even it is not strictly related with Cutty Sark, which are and will be very usefull as for me, and to the followers of this topic

 

But, please, do not overload this Topic with things that are not connected to the questions which are actually on posts. There are warning points on MSW, and I do not want to go on this way

BY the way, I am very interested in your work, and please open your Topic in building logs or in Gallery of finished models

Thanks

 

Nenad

[NenadM]

Nenad;  I've noticed that the more I add to the bulwarks, the sturdier they get.  Since you've already added the detail work, you probably won't have any problem with cracking.  It took me 7 months to do the copper; but the good thing is it doesn't require a lot of heavy thinking..  I'd put a movie on and grab a beer or pop, and spend 2 or 3 hours a night just cutting, dimpling, and affixing the little things..

 

I want to wish you and everyone else a Happy Thanksgiving, I know you probably don't recognize the holiday,  but it's a good time to sit back and give thanks for all we are blessed with.  (I'm atheist as well, so thanks go to my Niece who cooked a wonderful meal, Sister who is always there, The Admiral and her unfaltering love, and everyone on Model Ship World for their thoughts, comments, and help ) .

 

Best regards, Always.

 

~Bob

 

Bob

 

Thanks for nice wishes, and I am sending to you and your family my nice thoughts and wishes

 

We do not have Thanksgiving day, but on december 31 is New year ( two non working days), on january 07 is Christmas ( two non working days) and on january 13 is so calles Serbian new year (orthodox calendar), so with weekends, almost two weeks of almost no-working days

 

By the way, I follow your steps and methods of testing testing testing. Now I am in stage of fine-tuning hull curvatures, which mean - little layers of putty, wait it to harden, then sand, and again and again ... until I shall be satisfied. In mean time, I have made simulation of planking hull to test methods of next stage ( bender strips 1x1 mm rounded, second layer of veneer and alu-foil and painting it). Pics to come

Edited November 29, 2013 by Nenad M

[sudomekh]

Nenad! OK! Then essentially ... pay attention to this part of the body ... in my opinion it is not quite right ... but up to you ... I told only my personal opinion

[NenadM]

Thanks Sudomekh, I have noticed that confusing details on C-plans

 

I started hull of model by kit parts, and fortunately, curvatures of ribs on that critical part are almost correct. I am not so skilful as you, and to be honest, not so dedicated, so rather reckon on photos and my sense. Another thing is mess I have made and now trying to get out of this

 

Your advises are very helpfull

Edited November 29, 2013 by Nenad M

[sudomekh]

went through it all ... that is usually all learn from their mistakes

 

... try not to lay down a thick layer of putty ... it should remain at a minimum ... Good luck!

[NenadM]

Little research and analyze

 

Question - method for second planking outside bulwarks between two thin rails:

 

Campbell plans are little confusing about structure of middle bulwark between two thin rails:

 

 

 

On the other side

 

for forecastle bulwark between two thin rails - there is no dilema - iron

 

 

but at side there is question - wood or iron

 

on bow - wood

 

 

Maybe is answer in next picture taken during rebuild

 

 

It seems pretty clear that stern bulwark is made of three horizontal wood layers and central and fore bulwark between two thin rails are made of iron ( also conclusion is that the white inside panels are of iron and around them is wooden mask, so Bob`s method for making white panels is adequate as they are made)

 

That question substantially affected the way that the processing of the outside second layer will be applied

 

My idea is next

 

 

What do you think my friends ?

 

For my model scale, on stern, space between two thin rails is 5mm, so on stern bulwark, there will be three 1,6 mm wide strips     
 

Edited November 29, 2013 by Nenad M

[sudomekh]

sorry .... I think it helps to understand)))

 

if it's too much, then I apologize again

[NenadM]

Thx, it is just I though

Earlier reconstruction before fire.

Where did you find this pictures?

Edited December 2, 2013 by Nenad M

[NenadM]

Learn until you live.

If I did some test works in earlier stages, I probablly did not run in problems ...

 

Start of making some test work to see what thickness of rails to use, and how to put veneer.

Thin rails are 1x1mm and they are rounded, wider rail is 2x2 mm and it is squared

Edited December 2, 2013 by Nenad M

[NenadM]

During final partial sanding and puttying of hull, waiting for putty to harden, I proceed in testing 

 

( thickness of rails, planking and colour)

 

Rails maybe little wider ( 1x1.5 or 1.5 x 1.5 instead 1x1 mm ?)

Colours definitely must be acrylic ( this will be my next test)

 

Veneer ? Must be more precisely. Colour ? Definitely must be acrylic

 

Metal plates ... alu-foil definitely not, for man reasons.

Very thin plastic?

Maybe, but not happy with this solution

 

Tomorrow I shall probably be a bit smarter about this

 

 

Edited March 21, 2014 by Nenad M

[rfolsom]

Nenad;  Your solution for these metal plates, and those for your copper, might turn out to be one and the same.  I simply chose to coat the "iron" bulwarks with several coats of sealer to try to hide the woodgrain (and my cracks)  as much as possible before painting...

 

Looking forward to seeing your solution!

 

~Bob

[NenadM]

Bob

 

I am thinking about something similar to try, veneer + putty with very very very smooth surface, and ( if I find how) very light nacre reflections

Just bought some acrylic paints and I ll give it a try in the evening

Edited December 2, 2013 by Nenad M

[keelhauled]

Nenad,

 

I think that you and Bob have a good solution to the bulwarks.  I wished that I had spent more time filling and smoothing them out so that they appeared more like iron - (I made them out of wood).  I like your tests.  I think that they are time well spent!

 

take care,

Marc

[NenadM]

Thx Bob and Marc

Here is more testing. Comments and explanation tomorrow ( now is 23h and I am sleepy, and sending this from phone waiting my line to bathroom. Why are fathers and husbands always last in line?)

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2014 by Nenad M

[sudomekh]

Nenad M. .. Try to use a more fine-grained trees

 

Example: pear, hornbeam and so dapee

[sudomekh]

Ненад М..это груша на маленькой шлюпке....а теперь представьте ваш тип дерева для этой работы

 

Edit comments from Moderator:  Please post in English.

 

 

Nenad M.. Pear is on a small boat .... and now imagine your type of wood for the job

Edited December 3, 2013 by sudomekh
Needs to be in English

[keelhauled]

Nenad,

 

Looks good.  What are you using for the bolts?

[sudomekh]

Nenad M! photos from here

[Lou van Wijhe]

Nenad M! photos from here

 

And you can download the report from here.

 

Lou

[NenadM]

Lou and Sudomekh

 

You are so dedicated in the way that I stay breathless !!!!

 

This documents are real gold mine for studying details

Thank you very much, I really appreciate this

 

In the name of thanks I send you some beer ( we are too far away to meet and drink in that name)

 

 

 

[NenadM]

 

Nenad M. .. Try to use a more fine-grained trees

 

Example: pear, hornbeam and so dapee

 

 

Sudomekh

 

I shall be very happy if I can find some in Belgrade. As I wrote somewhere, in Belgrade shops it is impossible, and choice is very reduced, so putty and simulation must  be applied

 

In my house I had some different wooden scraps, but I dont have circular saw, ot any other corresponding tool to make my own strips

 

Thanks for your interest and help

[Albuk]

Nenad,

 

You may use a brass plate

http://www.rcsrbija.rs/materijali-za-gradnju/ploe

 

and patina (450din)

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.339158562772791.79547.145897172098932&type=1&comment_id=4592749

 

Cheers,

Alex

[NenadM]

Here is analysis and reflection on the results of the last test

 

Because of my poor English, positions are marked by numbers for easy follow

 

 

General conclusion

 

Paint - only acrylic, nothing more or less. Maybe some matt lacquer and patinate at the end.

 

In general, paint must be prepared (diluted with water) with adequate density, even to be applied in 2-3 layers. In my test, layer is little thicker than it has to be. Painting will be done with thin and very thin paintbrush ( I do not have spray, and think it is impossible to cover and protect this little parts you do not want to cover with spray)

 

Sadolin  (thin rails) - not adequate for this purpose and for such a small scale of applying. There must also be applied acrylic in proper shade ( that must be object of special test before final painting) 

 

Position 1 and 3

 

Top rail and main rail - thickness 2 x 2 mm and 1,5 x 1,5 mm. Not big and visible difference. Colour is not adequate, and this will be tested separately

 

In comparing with previous test when I use 1 x 1 mm strips, difference is present, and I have aesthetic dilemma

 

In some pictures from Greenwich it seems that it will be more similar if I use 1 x 1, and on other, it seems that they are almost similar with as white square bender

 

  

 

Position 2

 

It is OK, 2 x 2 mm squared, nothing to comment

 

 

Position 4

 

Testing with one piece of lime veneer, with very light sanding and no putty. It had to be more smooth, but less than surface on position 7, in the way that you can only perceive wood stucture

 

Position 5

 

Testing with 3 pieces of lime veneer, also with very light sanding and no putty. Same conclusion as on position 4, adding that I must cut slices more precise

 

Position 6 

 

Testing with mahogany veneer, with very light sanding and no putty. It seem to be OK with add of little putty and better sanding. In this position wood structure must be visible

 

Position 7

 

Surface of metal plates. No veneer, only balsa ( first layer of plank) with a lot of putty, and with fine gradual sanding. I think I hit the right thing, with add that painting must be with 1-2-3 thinner and smoother layers of colour

 

Position 8 

 

Experimenting with veneer and plastic thinned to 0.2 mm and glued to "metal" surface. This will be applied inside near water-ways on white bulwark , as on picture above

 

 

 

Position 9

 

@keelhauled

 

I concluded that the little parts, as rivets, that are visible on metal plates gives "metal" look and feeling

 

So I make two attempts. One with little drops of glue, other with little drops of putty applied with thin paintbrush. 

 

The result is above all expectations, with add that even little drop must be smaller, and put in better order and lined with another

 

 

 

On some parts of hull, they are not so thick

Edited March 21, 2014 by Nenad M

[NenadM]

Thank you Alex, I already find that webs, and remember them to use when I (one day) come to the real coopering at bottom of hull

 

In this stage, I consider that solution, but big problem (for me) arise - painting over alu/cooper/Zunc... everything I try result in very easy damaging of painted surface ( paint did not apply well and permanent). I have tried with car paint sprays ( same result), with oil and nitro colours ( they have too much varnish inside and result is too much blinky for my taste) . Here in MSW that problem was described in separate Topic, but I am not so dedicated to go on that way and, as you know, in Bgd is hard/almost impossible to find some of that stuff

 

PS - do you go to modellers compettiton on Airport Museum in Belgrade on december 15. 2013 ?

 

http://www.muzejvazduhoplovstva.org.rs/?jez=eng&id=1

[Albuk]

Yes, painting metal can be quite painful. To make it really stick you need to use primers and that, with a coat or two of paint, hides details. I like the way patina works on brass though.

 

It would be nice to go to the competition to see other people's work and maybe find out where do they buy building materials, for as you have written, it is hard to find them in Belgrade (at least for us newbies).

 

Cheers,

Alex

[rfolsom]

Thanks to Lou and Sudomekh for helping the CS fleet!

 

A concern I do have about those that want to model in absolute detail and authenticity:

 

How do we determine which of these photos show original rivets or panel lines?  If you were to pull up the floormat of a pristine 1967 Mustang and find a riveted floor panel, you would know that it was a replacement part for rust.  It's much harder to tell with a 144 year old ship, whose original plans (at least to my knowledge) do not exist.  G. Campell provides the best plans I know, but they are not the original, and in 1869 designs were improvised on the fly as the ship was being built.  Some of the photos from the report suggest repairs made much later than the original build.

 

Tough choice!

 

Nenad:  I am impressed with your level of testing;  I tried a test with the outside bulwark iron panels, but gave up.   Keep up the great work!

 

~Bob

[NenadM]

Bob

 

It is told: "The one who was bitten by snake, is frightened by lizard"

 

Just do not want to drop in swamp again, and just do not want another deep surgery. I think this was enough for one lifetime/one ship building. And further stage is delicate and every big mistake is visible. When I finished bulwarks with panels, I was not satisfied by them colour (sadoline). It is fact that this mistake can be corrected later, but that forced me to test first

 

Wish I have done some tests in earlier stage ....

 

Rivets ... 

 

Pictures we have get are  ... thought-provoking ... level of aggressiveness of seawater, and next conclusion .. rather iterative periods of maintenance. When I was in Army ( Navy on Adriatic sea), ships were made of metal, and maintenance was done every single year. Every 4-5 years general overhaul.

 

So, carefully analyzing pictures we have get, on some places it could be seen that rivets are not precisely in line. I think that, as any other work, considering almost 150 years of maintenance in different harbours all over the world , there were workers with less or more wish to put things in right places in line, and there were also different working supervisors, with or without plans. Only experience they had. Sometimes them were dedicated, sometimes they were not, just make necessary patches. Not to forget meaning of short time they had, and very significant moment - they were forced to race for cargo. Put a patch and come back to a rice as soon as it is possible. Also, as you look at pictures from time when Cutty was Ferriera, it seems that  maintenance was deadly poor.

 

Look at this picture of Ferriera ! When such corrosion is visible from the outside, can you imagine what is inside? Can you imagine what is hidden between wooden and metal parts? How did it affect to rivets ?

 

 

 

I think that is impossible to locate every rivet to exactly period, even a single plank.

 

Obviously, some frontiers and dead-lines must be in our heads, and every one of us must put some limits in some places. I wish I am dedicated to this work as Lou, Sudomekh an you. I am rather a bit inpatient ...  

 

Cheers !!! 

Edited December 4, 2013 by Nenad M

[NenadM]

Bob

 

tip for you

 

you can measure very precisely distances and pointes in Campbell plans using photoshop

 

Open desired *.pdf, activate rulers ( in cm, inches or what you need) zoom at desired part, and simply move cursor over drawing

 

 

Applying this method, there are dimensions and positions of water-posts

 

 

Ha !!! On which way thicknes of line affect precise measurement ? 

 

Or ... are drawings consider and contain horizontal curvature of bulwarks, and increase in length due to the curvature, or it is horizontal projection !!!! 

 

And what type of projection

 

this

 

or this

 

 

Bang your head and keep on going, as on animated gif down !!!!!

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2014 by Nenad M

[Lou van Wijhe]

A concern I do have about those that want to model in absolute detail and authenticity:

 

How do we determine which of these photos show original rivets or panel lines?  If you were to pull up the floormat of a pristine 1967 Mustang and find a riveted floor panel, you would know that it was a replacement part for rust.  It's much harder to tell with a 144 year old ship, whose original plans (at least to my knowledge) do not exist.  G. Campell provides the best plans I know, but they are not the original, and in 1869 designs were improvised on the fly as the ship was being built.  Some of the photos from the report suggest repairs made much later than the original build.

 

Tough choice!

Bob,

 

I think that somewhere you must stop looking for the ultimate truth. Ships change over time and some things cannot be ascertained any more. However, the Cutty Sark's former captain, Simon T. Waite, compiled a list of changes to the ship's fabric during the years which may be of some help. From the introduction:

 

This document summarises the known history of the fabric of Cutty Sark, culled principally from the ship’s logs and survey reports. It draws substantially on research undertaken by the former master of the ship, Captain Simon Waite, with additional research by the Trust’s Research Assistant, Simon Schofield.

 

You can download the document from here.

 

Lou

Edited December 4, 2013 by Lou van Wijhe

[NenadM]

Some more testing. Water posts or freeing posts

 

First I try to make "doors" of veneer ( putty on both sides and acrylic black on one and acrylic white on other side) but in that case ( because of thickness of my bulwark wall) there must be two veneer doors with ugly hole between and at side

 

Then I try to make them of solid wood (slat 2 x 5 mm) , something like this

 

 

 

And I think this will be right solution

 

Imitation of metal strips, in my case ( thick wall of bulwark), on white side, can be used in two ways

 

1. to visually mask thickness

2. to help to mount and glue "doors"

 

Also add decoration with hinges and rivets, something like that

 

 

In my scale,  holes must be near 9x10 mm, resized from Campbell scale. (In original Tehnodidakta plans, holes are 6x7 mm. To little visually) 

 

Hmmm

 

Pin rails and bulwark panels are junk from scratch box ( I was curious how it will look)

 

 

 

How large is 0,5 mm ?

So much - if posts panels are 6x7 mm or 7x8 mm and you do not want horizontal space between post panels and bulwark wall. 

Edited March 21, 2014 by Nenad M