Glory of the Seas 1869 by rwiederrich - FINISHED - 1/96 - medium clipper

[MrBlueJacket]

To calculate that

 

3/32" = 12"  multiply 12 x 32 then divide by 3

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

?  Let me get that right.   My great Republic was in 1/128...where 1/32"=1ft.

So 1/96...3/16"=1ft?  Or somewhere there abouts?

 

I'm assuming the plywood used in making the bulkheads is about 3/16" thick.  And if my calculations are correct...I will need to reduce the stem and stern boards by half.....to keep things in scale.

 

One thing I dislike...is when a modeler(Myself included in the past) doesn't reduce the provided keel to keep it in scale...although every other aspect of their model is in scale.

 

See what I mean from my own error...even though I had no choice to make this change with the Revell hull...it still looks out of scale and clumsy compared to the real ships stem.

 

Rob

Rob, when it comes to scale accuracy, you're absolutely right. Oversized elements totally ruin an impression of actual size. 1:96 scale: 96' = 12", so 1" = 8', 1/2" = 4', 1/4" = 2', 1/8" = 1', 1/16" = 6'', 1/32" = 3'', 1/64" = 1 1/2". The Keel of Glory was 16" or 1' 4". Using an online calculator, 1:96th scale of 16" = 0.1667 which translates to 2". I'll find the link to share it.

[ClipperFan]

5 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, when it comes to scale accuracy, you're absolutely right. Oversized elements totally ruin an impression of actual size. 1:96 scale: 96' = 12", so 1" = 8', 1/2" = 4', 1/4" = 2', 1/8" = 1', 1/16" = 6'', 1/32" = 3'', 1/64" = 1 1/2". The Keel of Glory was 16" or 1' 4". Using an online calculator, 1:96th scale of 16" = 0.1667 which translates to 2". I'll find the link to share it.

Rob, here's the scale conversion calculator resource:

 

https://www.inchcalculator.com/scale-calculator/

 

It's pretty neat. You can plug in any full sized dimension from a real ship and it will automatically convert it to any scale dimension chosen.

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, MrBlueJacket said:

A ratio of 1:128 is a scale of 3/32" = 1'

 

A ratio of 1:96 is 1/8" = 1'

Thanks Nic....I knew it was 1/8"=1ft...an 3/32"  I originally wrote those but changed them...cuz I was at work working from memory...an my memory is slippen it appears.   Thanks for helpin an old man out.

 

Hey...by the way...can I order just the wood strakes for planking the hull from say..... your Red Jacket kit?

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, MrBlueJacket said:

To calculate that

 

3/32" = 12"  multiply 12 x 32 then divide by 3

Oh man.....that is running your own business math....I get to work and I forget everything....cept what I'm doing at work.

 

Thanks for setting me straight Nic.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

57 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, when it comes to scale accuracy, you're absolutely right. Oversized elements totally ruin an impression of actual size. 1:96 scale: 96' = 12", so 1" = 8', 1/2" = 4', 1/4" = 2', 1/8" = 1', 1/16" = 6'', 1/32" = 3'', 1/64" = 1 1/2". The Keel of Glory was 16" or 1' 4". Using an online calculator, 1:96th scale of 16" = 0.1667 which translates to 2". I'll find the link to share it.

And that means when using the laser cut bulkhead plywood for the keel and stem..you will need to sand it or replace it to just half of the 1/4 plywood thickness.   If you want to be accurate.  At up to this point we have been trying to be as accurate as possible.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

50 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

And that means when using the laser cut bulkhead plywood for the keel and stem..you will need to sand it or replace it to just half of the 1/4 plywood thickness.   If you want to be accurate.  At up to this point we have been trying to be as accurate as possible.

 

Rob

Rob, keeping all elements to scale as much as realistically possible will help maintain a sense of the true massiveness of "Glory of the Seas." To do any less would only mar an overall impression of our efforts. I imagine it will be a combination of materials, whatever works best, to achieve the desired results. To do this, each item will need to be meticulously accurate. For example, at 1:96th scale, our 90" tall Athene figurehead will have to be 15/16ths of an inch! This is going to be real interesting....

Edited April 16, 2021 by ClipperFan
Grammar correction

[rwiederrich]

5 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, keeping all elements to scale as much as realistically possible will help maintain a sense of the true massiveness of "Glory of the Seas." To do any less would only mar an overall impression of our efforts. I imagine it will be a combination of materials, whatever works best, to achieve the desired results. To do this, each item will need to be meticulously accurate. For example, at 1:96th scale, our 90" tall Athene figurehead will have to be 15/16ths of an inch! This is going to be real interesting....

Interesting for sure.  I made 2 figureheads in that scale before.   One of Athene on my 1/96 mod version......and the Highlander of the McKay clan for the Donald McKay

[ClipperFan]

On 4/16/2021 at 10:54 PM, rwiederrich said:

Interesting for sure.  I made 2 figureheads in that scale before.   One of Athene on my 1/96 mod version......and the Highlander of the McKay clan for the Donald McKay

Rob,I saw both miniature figureheads years ago. Based on the limited knowledge available on Glory's figurehead, you did a credible job. I suspect because the Tartan McKay figurehead was less complicated in comparison, your effort was more refined. Both must have been quite a challenge considering their diminutive size. Meanwhile, Rob and Vladimir, here's a fascinating article on how a modern day replica of a full scale ship's figurehead is carved. What surprised me was the bread & butter use of laminates to form a rough outline of the whole. After 60 years of exposure to the elements, Scottish Clipper Ship 'Cutty Sark' Figurehead Witch 'Nannie Dee' of Robert Burns' famous poem "Tam O'Shanter" has developed dry rot and is getting a much improved replacement. This Witch will more closely resemble Hercules Linton's beautiful sketch. The existing figurehead was a copy of the Ship's Carpenter's version after her original one was lost at sea. With the advent of 3D printers, I was thinking if I could sketch enough images, maybe that's a solution which could be employed. Here's a link to the article: https://www.maritimawoodcarving.co.uk/maritima-commissions/the-cutty-sark/

Edited April 18, 2021 by ClipperFan

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

4 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,I saw both miniature figureheads years ago. Based on the limited knowledge available on Glory's figurehead, you did a credible job. I suspect because the Tartan McKay figurehead was less complicated in comparison, your effort was more refined. Both must have been quite a challenge considering their diminutive size. Meanwhile, Rob and Vladimir, here's a fascinating article on how a modern day replica of a full scale ship's figurehead is carved. What surprised me was the bread & butter use of laminates to form a rough outline of the whole. After 60 years of exposure to the elements, Scottish Clipper Ship 'Cutty Sark' Figurehead Witch 'Nannie Dee' of Robert Burns' famous poem "Tam O'Shanter" has developed dry rot and is getting a much improved replacement. This Witch will more closely resemble Hercules Linton's beautiful sketch. The existing figurehead was a copy of the Ship's Carpenter's version after her original one was lost at sea. With the advent of 3D printers, I was thinking if I could sketch enough images, maybe that's a solution which could be employed. Here's a link to the article: https://www.maritimawoodcarving.co.uk/maritima-commissions/the-cutty-sark/

Very ineteresting link thanks Richard. If you managed to sketch Athene for 3d print it would be godsend. if that smaller Nannie is 3d printed its fabulous. i intend to install on 1:72 glory nothing short of spectacular, and im not about to try even remembering how tough was nannie for cutty i carved. - which has been leaving me till now without thinking of figurehead. what i was  thinking about was some sort of existing  athenes figures of greek tourists souvenirs, ...but it would be rubbish.

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Vladimir_Wairoa
add

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Very ineteresting link thanks Richard. If you managed to sketch Athene for 3d print it would be godsend. if that smaller Nannie is 3d printed its fabulous. i intend to install on 1:72 glory nothing short of spectacular, and im not about to try even remembering how tough was nannie for cutty i carved. - which has been leaving me till now without thinking of figurehead. what i was  thinking about was some sort of existing  athenes figures of greek tourists souvenirs, ...but it would be rubbish.

 

 

 

Vladimir,

Off and on since 2009 I've been living with Glory's stunning Grecian Goddess Athene. Here are 2 of my better sketches. The top is probably most accurate but she's a little too low. However, these were done many years before Michael Mjelde's magnificent images were shared with us.

I'll get right on this. I'll endeavour to do one each in 1:72nd and 1:96th scale. At 1:72nd it will be 1&1/4" and at 1:96th it's 13/16th of an inch. Piece of cake! 

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Vladimir,

Off and on since 2009 I've been living with Glory's stunning Grecian Goddess Athene. Here are 2 of my better sketches. The top is probably most accurate but she's a little too low. However, these were done many years before Michael Mjelde's magnificent images were shared with us.

I'll get right on this. I'll endeavour to do one each in 1:72nd and 1:96th scale. At 1:72nd it will be 1&1/4" and at 1:96th it's 13/16th of an inch. Piece of cake! 

wonderful. she is one of loveliest figureheads there is. 

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

wonderful. she is one of loveliest figureheads there is. 

Vladimir, Michael Mjelde told me that one the most exciting events of his promotional tour for his 1970 book 'Glory of the Seas' was a stop at India House, Manhattan. There he was able to see the Goddess 'Athene' figurehead close up. He also got to rub elbows with the world famous miniaturist Donald McNarry. He said he managed to get some black & white and color pictures of the figurehead. So far he hasn't been able to locate them. I'm still hoping he does one day.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the inspiration of Jock Willis' famous Dumbarton Tea Clipper "Cutty Sark." Portrayed here is the original lovely Figurehead of the comely Witch 'Nannie Dee' as sketched by the Ship's designer Hercules Linton. Since her current 60 year old Figurehead has dry rot, they're currently carving her replacement which appears to be much closer than the one mounted to her Bow now. There's a fantastic tale behind the creation of "Cutty Sark" which refers back to a pivotal scene in Robert Burns' epic poem about the misadventures of Scotland's most infamous town drunk 'Tam O'Shanter' and his loyal mount 'Maggie.' Burns' tale made use of familiar landmarks still standing today. 

After imbibing at his favorite watering hole, Tam stumbles on a incredible scene of witches, warlocks, devils and demons cavorting in wild abandon. Chief amongst them is a scantily clad witch 'Nannie' whose enthusiastic seductive dancing in a too short chemise gets Tam to exclaim 'Weel Done, Cutty Sark!"

(In Scottish Cutty Sark means short shirt) This leads to a life or death chase with Tam barely making it across the 'Brig O'Doon.' Fortunately hobgoblins can't cross beyond the keystone of a bridge. However Tam's loyal steed 'Maggie' pays for his foolishness with the loss of her long tail, still in the grasp of the furious witch 'Nannie Dee!' 

So now, in the immortal words of famous radio personality 'Paul Harvey' you know the "rest of the tale."

Edited April 18, 2021 by ClipperFan
additional information

[ClipperFan]

In an earlier post which apparently didn't get saved, I compared the dimensions of "Cutty Sark" vs "Glory of the Seas." To put it mildly Glory would have dwarfed the Scottish Clipper.

 

"Glory of the Seas"

Wooden Medium Clipper

1869 Designer, Builder

Donald McKay

East Boston, Massachusetts

2,102 tons (1,139 tons larger)

Keel: 240'2" (38'2" longer)

LOA: 265' (ratio .96) (53' longer)

Total with Jibboom: 322' (42' longer)

3 decks (1 deck deeper) 

Depth of Hold: 28 1/2' (7 1/2' deeper)

 

"Cutty Sark"

Composite Extreme Tea Clipper

1869 Designer Hercules Linton

Owner Jock Willis

Dumbarton, Scotland 

963 tons

Keel: 202'

LOA: 212' (ratio .952)

Total with Jibboom: 280'

2 decks

Depth of Hold: 21'

 

 

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

9 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Vladimir, Michael Mjelde told me that one the most exciting events of his promotional tour for his 1970 book 'Glory of the Seas' was a stop at India House, Manhattan. There he was able to see the Goddess 'Athene' figurehead close up. He also got to rub elbows with the world famous miniaturist Donald McNarry. He said he managed to get some black & white and color pictures of the figurehead. So far he hasn't been able to locate them. I'm still hoping he does one day.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the inspiration of Jock Willis' famous Dumbarton Tea Clipper "Cutty Sark." Portrayed here is the original lovely Figurehead of the comely Witch 'Nannie Dee' as sketched by the Ship's designer Hercules Linton. Since her current 60 year old Figurehead has dry rot, they're currently carving her replacement which appears to be much closer than the one mounted to her Bow now. There's a fantastic tale behind the creation of "Cutty Sark" which refers back to a pivotal scene in Robert Burns' epic poem about the misadventures of Scotland's most infamous town drunk 'Tam O'Shanter' and his loyal mount 'Maggie.' Burns' tale made use of familiar landmarks still standing today. 

After imbibing at his favorite watering hole, Tam stumbles on a incredible scene of witches, warlocks, devils and demons cavorting in wild abandon. Chief amongst them is a scantily clad witch 'Nannie' whose enthusiastic seductive dancing in a too short chemise gets Tam to exclaim 'Weel Done, Cutty Sark!"

(In Scottish Cutty Sark means short shirt) This leads to a life or death chase with Tam barely making it across the 'Brig O'Doon.' Fortunately hobgoblins can't cross beyond the keystone of a bridge. However Tam's loyal steed 'Maggie' pays for his foolishness with the loss of her long tail, still in the grasp of the furious witch 'Nannie Dee!' 

So now, in the immortal words of famous radio personality 'Paul Harvey' you know the "rest of the tale."

lovely pics. Yes I rememver i saw Clintons original pics and story back when modeling cutty. I was even more taken by his stern design. 

Its part of history  that conservative society as victorian London didnt get away with erotic-witch etc portrayal, its obvious that nowadays its different. 

 

 

[ClipperFan]

4 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

lovely pics. Yes I rememver i saw Clintons original pics and story back when modeling cutty. I was even more taken by his stern design. 

Its part of history  that conservative society as victorian London didnt get away with erotic-witch etc portrayal, its obvious that nowadays its different. 

 

 

Vladimir, thank you! You shared a bit of "Cutty Sark" design history that previously, I never knew existed. Too bad Victorian society wouldn't have accepted such a lovely stern. This would have tied the Bow and Stern together so much better. Tam O'Shanter and his Trusty grey mare Maggie are neatly portrayed on the Port while a bag piping demon is on the Starboard. Meanwhile 'Nannie Dee' dancing is even prettier in this sketch than on her figurehead. She even appears to be smiling too. There's just enough clarity on the Port side to read "Weel Done, Cutty Sark!" in the flowing scroll below her top counter but try as I might, I cannot make out what's inscribed on the Starboard side. Can you? Do you know if there's a more detailed image of this?

It's unfortunate that, to my knowledge "Glory of the Seas" has very few scenes of her embellished rear Stern, which most likely echoed the beautiful flowery carving of her Cutwater arch.

[rwiederrich]

Great pictures guys....really amazing stuff.

 

I spoke to Mike as we prepare to meet again for another book signing and some good conversation.  He informs me that  he has been " 'revisiting' the construction period when Glory was under construction.  It's going to help him understand better, fifty years removed, how she was actually built and what was entailed in doing so".

In addition to Duncan Mcleann's accounts.

 

It sounds exciting and I'm looking forward to any new conclusions.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

57 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Great pictures guys....really amazing stuff.

 

I spoke to Mike as we prepare to meet again for another book signing and some good conversation.  He informs me that  he has been " 'revisiting' the construction period when Glory was under construction.  It's going to help him understand better, fifty years removed, how she was actually built and what was entailed in doing so".

In addition to Duncan Mcleann's accounts.

 

It sounds exciting and I'm looking forward to any new conclusions.

 

Rob

Rob, the rather colorful background story of the inspiration behind the name "Cutty Sark" has always fascinated me. Apparently Robert Burns is the national poet laureate of Scotland and his Birthday is practically a holiday.

I'm glad you're still talking with Mike, I haven't gotten an email from him since he sent the impressive scene of Glory's Stern. I wonder if it's because I'm still using the personal email given to me months ago instead of the one "theAuthorsDaughter" gave us?

One other construction detail I noticed in Mike's cross section. Other Clippers of Glory's size had Keels of 11'. I'll detail how the same can be discovered of her.

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

5 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Vladimir, thank you! You shared a bit of "Cutty Sark" design history that previously, I never knew existed. Too bad Victorian society wouldn't have accepted such a lovely stern. This would have tied the Bow and Stern together so much better. Tam O'Shanter and his Trusty grey mare Maggie are neatly portrayed on the Port while a bag piping demon is on the Starboard. Meanwhile 'Nannie Dee' dancing is even prettier in this sketch than on her figurehead. She even appears to be smiling too. There's just enough clarity on the Port side to read "Weel Done, Cutty Sark!" in the flowing scroll below her top counter but try as I might, I cannot make out what's inscribed on the Starboard side. Can you? Do you know if there's a more detailed image of this?

It's unfortunate that, to my knowledge "Glory of the Seas" has very few scenes of her embellished rear Stern, which most likely echoed the beautiful flowery carving of her Cutwater arch.

youre welcome Richard. i counld decipher that as well. didnt find more here. if i find something ill post. https://www.rmg.co.uk/national-maritime-museum

 

From what I understand  glorys stern was originally  highly decorated with carvings ( impossible to see ) but later it was simplified with just name of the ship, is that right? 

[ClipperFan]

4 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

youre welcome Richard. i counld decipher that as well. didnt find more here. if i find something ill post. https://www.rmg.co.uk/national-maritime-museum

 

From what I understand  glorys stern was originally  highly decorated with carvings ( impossible to see ) but later it was simplified with just name of the ship, is that right? 

Vladimir, you are absolutely right. Look very closely at her Stern in the 1869 fitting out scene. There's just a hint of her carvings. In the tradition of the time, there would most likely be a small amount of floral decorations over her name and Port of Hail, which probably was originally Boston. The more elaborate embellishments would be below her identifying information. It most likely would have echoed the elaborate work seen on her cutwater.

Edited April 19, 2021 by ClipperFan
Grammar correction

[ClipperFan]

22 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, the rather colorful background story of the inspiration behind the name "Cutty Sark" has always fascinated me. Apparently Robert Burns is the national poet laureate of Scotland and his Birthday is practically a holiday.

I'm glad you're still talking with Mike, I haven't gotten an email from him since he sent the impressive scene of Glory's Stern. I wonder if it's because I'm still using the personal email given to me months ago instead of the one "theAuthorsDaughter" gave us?

One other construction detail I noticed in Mike's cross section. Other Clippers of Glory's size had Keels of 11'. I'll detail how the same can be discovered of her.

Rob, here's what I learned about the depth of "Glory of the Seas" Keel & Backbone. When you count all the timbers bolted together above the Keel, it's between 11'10" to 12'6" depending if you count her 8" Bulwark Stanchions (which Duncan MacLean did count in his description of "Stag Hound" having a 9' Backbone.

 

1869 Medium Clipper "Glory of the Seas" LOA 265' displacement 2,102 tons

 

Keel moulded 24" & Shoe 5" total 29"

Floor Timbers moulded 20"

Bulwark Stanchions kneed to Beams above & Keelson below moulded 8"

3 Midship Keelsons ea moulded 16" total 48

3 layers of Thick Work ea moulded 15" total 45"

Moulded total 150" = 12'6"

 

1852 Clipper "Sovereign of the Seas"

LOA 265' displacement 2,421 tons

 

11'8" "through the backbone" including mouldings of Floor Timbers.

 

1850 Extreme Clipper "Stag Hound" LOA 226'

displacement 1,600 tons

 

Possibly because she was the largest merchant vessel in the world at her time of launch, McKay's revolutionary new Extreme Clipper "Stag Hound" was described in great detail, especially in components which comprised her 'backbone.'

 

Keel combined with Shoe moulded 46" (3' 10")

Floor Timbers on Keel moulded 14-16"

3 Midship Keelsons combined moulded 42"

Hold Stanchions kneed to Beams above and Keelson below 10" square, including these make her "9' "through the backbone"

Total moulded depth 107" (9'11")

 

1851 Extreme Clipper "Flying Cloud" LOA 235' displacement 1,750 tons

"nearly 9' through the backbone." [in reality 9'3"]

 

Keel [& Shoe] moulded 44" (37" clear of the Garboards)

Floor Timbers moulded 12"

3 depths of Midship Keelsons moulded 45"

2 Keelsons moulded 10" 

Total moulded depth 111" (9'3")

 

1851 Extreme Clipper "Flying Fish" LOA 220' displacement 1,566 tons

9'6" through the backbone

 

Keel (& Shoe) moulded 3'2" (38")

Floor Timbers moulded 18"

2 Midship Keelsons ea moulded 15" (combined total 30")

2 Bilge Keelsons ea moulded 14" (combined total 28")

Total moulded depth 114" (9'6")

 

1851 Clipper Packet "Staffordshire" LOA 240' displacement 1,900 tons

"9'8" through the backbone."

[in actuality 10'6"]

 

Keel (& Shoe) moulded 48" (4')

Floor Timbers moulded 18"

3 Midship Keelsons combined moulded 5' (60")

Total moulded depth 126" (10'6")

 

1853 Clipper Packet "Star of Empir zeee" LOA estimated 239' displacement 2,000 tons

"Whole depth from top of Midship Keelsons to bottom of Keel [including Shoe] is 9 1/2 feet" [in actuality including 5" Floor Ceiling & 2 16" square Bilge Keelsons of 32" her 'Backbone' was 12'7"]

 

Keel (& Shoe) in 2 depths moulded 32"

Floor Timbers moulded 18"

4 Midship Keelsons ea 16" square total 64" (5'4")

total moulded depth 114" (9'6")

Floor Ceiling 5" thick

2 Bilge Keelsons 16" square (32")

total through 'Backbone' 151" (12'7")

 

1855 Clipper "Donald McKay"

LOA 266' displacement 2,588 tons

11'11" through the Backbone

 

Keel (& Shoe) moulded in 2 depths 16" ea total 32"

Floor Timbers moulded 20"

Midship Keelsons in 4 depths, ea 16" square, total 64" (5'4")

Ceiling on Floor 5" thick

Ceiling above Bilge 12"

Ceiling above that 10"

total moulded depth 143" (11'11")

 

In conclusion "Glory of the Seas" having a depth of 12'6" through "the Backbone" is consistent with increased size and carrying capacity of thes massive ships of Donald McKay.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by ClipperFan
additional information

[ClipperFan]

Rob, Vladimir,

rom the MAAS Museum, Australia comes this beautiful half Hull model by Ron Haug, of the 1855 McKay Australian James Baines 'Black Ball' Line Clipper "Donald McKay, 

Here's an article from the Museum's site:

 

https://collection.maas.museum/object/570557

Edited April 20, 2021 by ClipperFan

[druxey]

The two lines of the poem on the banner in  the original Cutty Sark stern design read:

 

(And roars out,) "Weel done, Cutty-sark!"
And in an instant all was dark.

Edited April 20, 2021 by druxey

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

20 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, Vladimir,

rom the MAAS Museum, Australia comes this beautiful half Hull model by Ron Haug, of the 1855 McKay Australian James Baines 'Black Ball' Line Clipper "Donald McKay, 

Here's an article from the Museum's site:

 

https://collection.maas.museum/object/570557

beautiful lines. looking somehow familiar... but what i find interesting is somewhat slight drop of topgallant rail after constant rise towards bow watching from aft forward. very very sharp stem angle  of McKay.what  I find most interesting in these ships is accomodation of bowsprit. after closer look bowsprit is almost square at the insert and square going thru knighthead i think. not sure though. 

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, druxey said:

The two lines of the poem on the banner in  the original Cutty Sark stern design read:

 

(And roars out,) "Weel done, Cutty-sark!"
And in an instant all was dark.

Druxey, thanks for enlightening me as to the opposite phrase!

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

beautiful lines. looking somehow familiar... but what i find interesting is somewhat slight drop of topgallant rail after constant rise towards bow watching from aft forward. very very sharp stem angle  of McKay.what  I find most interesting in these ships is accomodation of bowsprit. after closer look bowsprit is almost square at the insert and square going thru knighthead i think. not sure though. 

Rob, I've seen a similar slight droop in another McKay ship very recently too. She's very familiar to all of us. You can have no doubt. Both of "Glory of the Seas" Jibboom and Bowsprit are rectangular when they enter her Bow. This makes total sense too, as it prevents any possibility of either spar from rotating. McKay must have somehow considered this as a design advantage, since he went out of his way to conceal it. If you have any doubts, look at the McKay sketch of Clipper "Lightning" which mysteriously leaves the entire Bow which includes Naval Hoods and Cutwater completely blank! Donald McKay was so effective in concealing this element that it's probably the chief reason why none of the models of his Clipper Ships contain these features, even today!

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, I've seen a similar slight droop in another McKay ship very recently too. She's very familiar to all of us. Just look at the composite, it's there at the same junction.

Also, you can have no doubt. Both of "Glory of the Seas" Jibboom and Bowsprit are rectangular when they enter her Bow. In the 1900s close up, look at the Jibboom just above and behind the 3rd band (4th counting single adjustable wrap around one) on Glory's Bowsprit. There's a triangular shadow proving the shape changes to a rectangular one for about the last 5' entering her Bow. While it's much closer, the Bowsprit also flares out above just before the Hull entrance.

This makes total sense too, as it prevents any possibility of either spar from rotating. McKay must have seriously considered this as a design advantage, since he went out of his way to conceal it.

If you have any doubts, look at the McKay sketch of Clipper "Lightning" which mysteriously leaves the entire Bow which includes Naval Hoods and Cutwater completely blank! Donald McKay was so effective in concealing this element that it's probably the chief reason why none of the models of his Clipper Ships contain these features, even today!

Edited April 20, 2021 by ClipperFan
additional information

[rwiederrich]

Interesting....however...I tend to believe this is just another optical illusion we are seeing.  The curve of the bow viewed from below the profile can give the illusion it is bowing down...when, if you look at the drawings it does no such thing.  The half model of the James Baines only reinforces this phenomena...because it to is viewed slightly below the profile.

 

IMV....all we are seeing is the curve of the bow and from this particular angle it appears to bow down....going in its natural curve. 

Just hold a cup up and look at it from the side...its edge is flat...but then rotate it slightly so as to look at it from below its profile and the edge begins to bow down.

 

My observations anyway. 

 

Rob

Edited April 22, 2021 by rwiederrich

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Interesting....however...I tend to believe this is just another optical illusion we are seeing.  The curve of the bow viewed from below the profile can give the illusion it is bowing down...when, if you look at the drawings it does no such thing.  The half model of the Games Baines only reinforces this phenomena...because it to is viewed slightly below the profile.

 

IMV....all we are seeing is the curve of the bow and from this particular angle it appears to bow down....going in its natural curve. 

Just hold a cup up and look at it from the side...its edge is flat...but then rotate it slightly so as to look at it from below its profile and the edge begins to bow down.

 

My observations anyway. 

 

Rob

exactly what i was afterward thinking of.  it might  visual deception of turning curvature downward but . i see it on cutty sark model looking at her  only from very very very bottom - then it is evident. hovewer looking straight at level angle it raises steadily. sooo.....  

[ClipperFan]

Rob & Vladimir, I'm in absolute agreement with both of you. Looking closely at this half Hull, you'll notice the view is just slightly from below. It's too bad the image of "Donald McKay" is so dark. Still you can see how accurately the model is to the lines plan.  It does give a lovely impression of the ship. What I'm continually in awe of, is how simply beautiful these vessels were. While it's an optical illusion, it can be seen on many Down Easters and Clipper Ships of this era. My goal is to realize as accurately as possible the true form of "Glory of the Seas."