San Ildefonso by Sjors - FINISHED - OcCre - 1:70

[augie]

Ok, we have the right ship now  

 

That's a lot of pintles and gudgeons!  Nice work!

 

That one photo gives a nice idea of the color on the lower hull.  Came out very well.

[Sjors]

You mean the photo on the left…..

 

[Sjors]

That rudder looks nice - well done!

 

Thanks Wayne,

 

I'm only dubbing on one thing….

Should I painting it black? ( the holders of the rudder) or let it this way?

 

 

[augie]

No.....actually I meant the one on the right.

[Sjors]

That's Augie,

 

When you are saying that the sun is shining ,he is saying… now it snows 

 

Ok, the right picture…. looks good isn't it?

 

[augie]

Good??????   Looks great!!!!!!

[trippwj]

Sjors - If you had coppered the hull below the waterline I would say yes, but with just the varnished wood, I would leave them as is.  They really standout well against the planking this way!

[Sjors]

Thank you Augie         

 

Wayne thanks, I'll keep it this way!

 

[Garward]

Brass loops and nails of at the rudder should be darkened before installation. Being in sea water, they weren't such brilliant  .

[themadchemist]

Hello Sjors

 Dropping outta lurk mood, here.

 

YEA, a shot of the stern  -- Thats not safe to show your back side like that - your liable to have the Stern blown to bits... not everyone is cannonballess (is that even a word).

Nice work, I also vote leaving it brass. it matches the brass up front in the bow.

 

I'm gonna have to learn to talk around here or everyone will out rank me

 

Shine On -/\=

Keith

[wim500]

Nice progress Sjors.

 

Hope you don't mind, but I will echo Garward to blacken the brass on the rudder if still possible.

Just my two cents and hoping you won't shoot with cottonballs .

[augie]

I think it's a matter of personal preference.  I know Chuck P. recommended they be brass in his Syren practicum and in looking around I see others the same (see Dan Vadis gallery on the brig Supply).  Yes, any metal would eventually be blackened but then we copper the bottom of our ships and rarely do we completely blacken that.

 

She's your baby, Sjors! 

[wim500]

Augie, I totally agree with you that it is up to Sjors now, it's his choice and I will respect that .

[Garward]

To blacken or not details - business of the author, but look at museum models and models of known modellers in numerous forums and galleries.

[themadchemist]

This debate brings up an inner conflict I seem to be having.

 

Historically Accurate vs Modified to tastes 

 

It amazes me how the correct aging of a piece (or everything) can take the ship to that next level of POW! I sometimes look at the beautifully sanded Pear and question Oak was used and probably really not all that smooth. As a new to this hobby but very experienced researcher I really like the depth of knowledge this hobby provides.

 

The best part is each builders chance to have their own way with the build. Popeyes 2 Lobster Twins has really made me think about this. I find it so sad that there never seems to be enough time for building and studying all the great info on MSW.

 

Keith

[themadchemist]

On that note

hope its ok if I have pistachios instead of popcorn, I promise not to throw the shells on the floor.

 

tmc

[Garward]

To blacken or not details - business of the author, but look at museum models and models of known modellers in numerous forums and galleries.

 

Photo from the book about models from a sea museum in Madrid.

[themadchemist]

Holy cannon blasts, someone blew the whole larboard side off that one.

 

@ Garward

I cant seem to get to the last page of your Montanes log Garward, Everytime I reopen it I forget where Im at and I get bogged down looking at your work, again and again. Cant seem to stop myself. One day I'll get caught up then post. Amazing Details.

 

Keith

[Garward]

Holy cannon blasts, someone blew the whole larboard side off that one.

 

@ Garward

I cant seem to get to the last page of your Montanes log Garward, Everytime I reopen it I forget where Im at and I get bogged down looking at your work, again and again. Cant seem to stop myself. One day I'll get caught up then post. Amazing Details.

 

Keith

 

 

Hi,  Keith, thanks for the comment!  It not gun explosion, it is called "section"  

Edited March 12, 2013 by Garward

[themadchemist]

pardon my ignorance, but I'm assuming pintle and grudgeon were made out of wrought iron, which would have a black patina. I know that wrought iron is more resistant to oxidation (rust) then steel but how did this hardware hold up to salt water. I've read some on the iron nail/copper plating problems due to the metal variation causing an electric current potential between the metals causing an increased corrosion.

 

So many interesting facts to learn. and for them, very important that they had to work out, because they needed the parts to work rather then look good.

 

Keith

[themadchemist]

I know, but if it were I'd like to see the cannon ball that did it.

is there a shot of the other side? It'd be interesting to see all the inner detail.

Another question I was wondering. The gold scroll work on the Transom, would that have been gold leafed or did they have a gold paint/coating?

 

Keith

[Garward]

pardon my ignorance, but I'm assuming pintle and grudgeon were made out of wrought iron,

 

Keith

 

Really, by the real ships of that era these and the vast majority of other details were produced from iron (steel, cast iron) and were black color.

[themadchemist]

I've been doing some researching on old metallurgy and as a chemist I was surprised that wrought iron, due to its low content of carbon is less corrosion resistant. The carbon seems to spread the iron atoms in its crystalline structure and allow oxygen a better foothold. Its kinda interesting as we always think steel is stronger, but then strong is a very multi-faceted word. The key is the combination of Hard, flexible and (if in the ocean) corrosion resistant.

I also wouldn't think case iron would be used much on anything that would be stressed as cast iron is quite brittle. Wrought iron is quite stronger then cast and has a small amount of carbon which gives it grain like wood.

 

Its interesting when you look at the history of what Smiths were doing. They understood the metal even without knowing what caused the wanted effects (at least at the atomic level), although they understood the processes. In a way they knew more then we do today, but yet knew less. Paradox.

 

Keith

[Garward]

I've been doing some researching on old metallurgy and as a chemist I was surprised that wrought iron, due to its low content of carbon is less corrosion resistant. The carbon seems to spread the iron atoms in its crystalline structure and allow oxygen a better foothold. Its kinda interesting as we always think steel is stronger, but then strong is a very multi-faceted word. The key is the combination of Hard, flexible and (if in the ocean) corrosion resistant.

I also wouldn't think case iron would be used much on anything that would be stressed as cast iron is quite brittle. Wrought iron is quite stronger then cast and has a small amount of carbon which gives it grain like wood.

 

Its interesting when you look at the history of what Smiths were doing. They understood the metal even without knowing what caused the wanted effects (at least at the atomic level), although they understood the processes. In a way they knew more then we do today, but yet knew less. Paradox.

 

Keith

 

Thanks for information on iron, it is known to me. I in the professional activity for a long time am engaged in research of metals, metallographic analysis of cast iron, steel and various alloys, and also nondestructive testing of these materials.

[augie]

This is one of those issues where everyone is 'right'.  It depends on what we are trying to depict on our model.  In looking through Gardiner's new book, The Sailing Frigate -- A History in Ship Models, models are depicted both ways.  The majority, however, are clean brass as a ship would have looked on the ways.  If we want weathering/aging, perhaps we should all follow Frank's (riverboat) example and go so far as to include barnacles and seagull droppings!

 

Sjors has a ponderous choice in front of him  .

[themadchemist]

Most of what I've learned about metals or the alloying of them has been since my disablity.

 

As an analytical chemist I had some fun with the toys associated with metal analysis (ICP-MS AAS...) plus a few of the old school methods by titration but was never introduced to the actual field of metallurgy. I have always found the subject quite interesting and have always wished to know more. Professional I went in the pharmaceutical seperations direction of study, but then chose to teach high school instead (I didnt care for the ethics of Pharma).

 

@ Garboard

I figured you knew plenty about metals after watching the turning bit that you made for turning the spindles on the cannon axles.

Ive finally made it up to where I was in your log previously, its the bit where your sampling finishes, but still have pages to go to catch up.

I guess I should write down where I stop, but then I miss viewing it all again.

 

A a newcomer to the hobby, I really appreciate all the work that has been done by the older users in getting there logs back up. Some may see in as a peacock strutting their feathers, but to me it is the Master teaching the apprentice...and Masters have reason to strut. So many build logs so little time.

 

Can someone tell me I'm not in need of mental assistance, I seem to always have multiple MSW tabs open. I'm OCD for MSW.

 

Shine On -/\=

Keith - themadchemist

[themadchemist]

@ Augie

Thats what I love about this place. Great rational discussions and debate, and a genuine atmosphere of constructive criticisms. The perfect learning environment. I've learn more from belonging to MSW (actually I lurked until the crash) then I could in any classroom and its more fun then the classroom setting.

 

I love how every persons build is right, because who knows exactly how they were and many ships changed repeatedly with refits.

 

That brings up a question The San Ildefonso was taken at Tragalfar if memory serves me and became the HMS Ildefonso. Someone had statement it looked like a mini-victory, which made me wonder, was the black and ocre colors used by both english and spanish ships? is there a history to why certain colors were used?

Like I said, this hobby creates so many interesting questions.

 

Keith

[Garward]

This is one of those issues where everyone is 'right'.  It depends on what we are trying to depict on our model.  In looking through Gardiner's new book, The Sailing Frigate -- A History in Ship Models, models are depicted both ways.  The majority, however, are clean brass as a ship would have looked on the ways.  If we want weathering/aging, perhaps we should all follow Frank's (riverboat) example and go so far as to include barnacles and seagull droppings!

 

Sjors has a ponderous choice in front of him  .

 

Various details can be shown or not on model but if to show them, they have to be the corresponding color (including and barnacles and seagull dropping    ), differently it not modeling, and a fantasy of the author. As it is well-known from a set of various sources of information (instead of from some books on models), the overwhelming quantity of metal details by the real sailing ships 18 of an eyelid was made of iron and steel of black color. Also it is the obvious fact.

[Garward]

@ Augie

Thats what I love about this place. Great rational discussions and debate, and a genuine atmosphere of constructive criticisms. The perfect learning environment. I've learn more from belonging to MSW (actually I lurked until the crash) then I could in any classroom and its more fun then the classroom setting.

 

I love how every persons build is right, because who knows exactly how they were and many ships changed repeatedly with refits.

 

That brings up a question The San Ildefonso was taken at Tragalfar if memory serves me and became the HMS Ildefonso. Someone had statement it looked like a mini-victory, which made me wonder, was the black and ocre colors used by both english and spanish ships? is there a history to why certain colors were used?

Like I said, this hobby creates so many interesting questions.

 

Keith

 

Really, this hobby creates a huge set of questions!

Edited March 12, 2013 by Garward

[themadchemist]

To my thinking, which could be completely wrong, I would think brass would have been used seldomly for areas that were under high stress conditions, like on a rudder. But it sure looks pretty . I personally have a problem seeing paint put on beautiful wood also. Whats great is we can build them as we like, and during the process discuss all the various details. As a newcomer I'm probably discussing things repeated over and over.

 

One thing I guess I need to invest in is a library. I have hundreds of books but nothing on ships. What would be a really good primer for getting the history of ship construction. Ive been reading Bligh's account of the mutiny after looking through the Jolly boat logs. Thought it would be dry reading but its actually quite interesting.

 

Keith