Sails for a Cutter Rigged Long Boat (Medway Longboat)

[fnkershner]

If I understand correctly the 2nd layer of the Silkspan had the solid lines (the edge) & the 3rd layer has the dotted line (the stitching). So, bolt rope along the luff, Gaff, & Boom. and this applies to all sails. The Leach has no Bolt rope. Trying to remember my Sail instructions from when I was on a race crew. It appears if I cut the plys down 50% I should be able to get all 4 plys for all sails from one sheet of Sailspan. If everything mentioned here is correct and I cut the 50% out of the middle, I am ready to go. thanks!

 

Can you also share a photo of the Hank you describe for the foresails. Lastly, should the 3rd or 4th ply have a little extra around the edges to fold over the bolt rope?

Edited January 1, 2022 by fnkershner

[TomShipModel]

The 'dotted line" is a hidden line that represents the other "hidden" side of the sail.  The tabling seams are folded over with the edge on one side of the sail about 2" offset from the seam on the front.  So, when you draw seams hey are solid pencil lines.  When you lay one piece on top of the other the lines are offset to show two parallel seams.

 

The bolt rope was sewed to the edge of the sail on the overlapped leech.  You are correct that the outside sheets of silk span are a bit larger to account for the overlap.  In smaller scales I do overlap silk span over the bolt rope however, this is a expedient method that you might not get away with at 1:24 scale.  Even at 1:24, a sewing line would be way out of scale.  So, I glued the bolt rope.  The trick is to not undo the glue when the sail is wetted to be furled.  It is very tricky to not let the bolt rope get too wet when you are furling the sail as the bolt rope coming loose is a real pain (I've been there).  I'm looking for pictures.

 

 

[fnkershner]

 If everything mentioned here is correct and I cut the 50% out of the middle, I am ready to go. thanks!

[AON]

Very clear instructions and very realistic results.

Thank you Tom.

[Roger Pellett]

A very nice tutorial on producing realistic sails.

 

I recently made silkspan sails for my 1:32 scratch built longboat.  The model is based on the drawing with sail plan in May’s Warship Boats Book.

 

I would like to comment on an alternate way of realistically showing furled sails on an unmanned, moored sloop rigged small boat.

 

In the photo below, the boat has three sails; mainsail, foresail, and jib.  A drawing of pre Revolutionary War New York shows one of these small open sloops moored in the Harbor.  The loose footed mainsail is not furled to the boom.  Instead, it is lashed to itself and partially raised as shown on my model.  The jib, set flying, is hoisted but tied in stops with very light line.  It would be set by pulling on the sheets to break the stops.  I believe that this practice was common at the time.

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Roger Pellett

[Dowmer]

Very nice rendition Roger. I especially like your attention to historical detail with the sails. 

[fnkershner]

Roger - Where did you get the crew person under the bowsprit? Very nice job!

[Roger Pellett]

The crew member is the only thing that I did’t build myself.  He is a 54mm cast Colonial Gentlemen  from Imrie Risley Miniatures that I assembled and painted.  The Longboat model is Early- Mid Eighteenth Century, before the establishment of uniform regulations for Royal Navy Officers.  The dark blue and white is typical.

 

54mm is a common size for military miniature figures.  It is equivalent to 1:32.

 

Roger

[fnkershner]

Tom - I sat down today to make the new patterns with the removal of 50% from the middle of the main sail. I must say I was shocked. Before I start to do the real cutting, I want to confirm with you. Can you give me the actual dimensions of the Main sail. The length of the Luff, & leach. I already know the length of the foot from the boom. and the length of the top (I don't know the name of the part on the Gaff). those 2 lengths are defined already.

[fnkershner]

Tom, I hope you are well. It has been several weeks since we last heard from you. I sat down today to begin gluing Layers of Silkspan. I began with a test on some scrap. First, I am very surprised at how fragile the material is when wet. And the multiple wrinkles. Do you have any advice on how to glue the layers?

[TomShipModel]

Good morning.  It has been a very busy time over the last few weeks and I'm finally able to get caught up.  I was looking for photos of the sails before I furled them and they are already in this thread.  Here is the mainsail before the sail is attached to the gaff.  Note how the seams fan out and that there are two parallel lines for each seam.  Earlier in this thread are a few photographs of the triangular sails.  Don't be shocked, it all works out after you furl them.

 

 

 

[TomShipModel]

I just read your last post!  Sorry for being late here.  Yes, silk span is very delicate when wet.  I lay the wetted sheet on glass.  I press out the wrinkles with my fingers.  The key is to lay the silk span from one side and spread it out as you lay it down.  It is a bit trickier for the subsequent layers, but, with patience, you will get it done.  When you lift all the layers off the glass you need to delicately lift from on corner and peel the sheet from the glass. 

[fnkershner]

Thanks Tom. you aren't kidding when you say delicate. Okay so more to learn. I also notice you have small loops in each corner of your bolt rope. This picture is helpful.

[TomShipModel]

The loops in the corners are called clews.  On larger sails, there are attachment points for things like reef tackle and bunt lines.  They are called cringles.

[TomShipModel]

By the way, when I said press out the wrinkles, I should have said smooth out the wrinkles with your fingers.

[fnkershner]

On my first try I did try to smooth out the wrinkles with my fingers and ended up with holes in the fabric. But I will try what you suggest again tomorrow.

[TomShipModel]

When you smooth out the wrinkles you need to be very gentle.  You can lift one end of the sheet and then carefully lower it smoothing as you go.  Yoiu will surprise yourself with your resut.

[fnkershner]

Tom - As mentioned elsewhere I was having lots of trouble with all of this. So, when a friend offered to help. I put it all aside until we could get together. Now that we have met, and he has shared his experience I have had a much better time creating the sails. Before I hang them on the model. I want to add the bolt rope as you did. My question to you is what size of rope did you use. I am working with Chuck's .018 and how did you attach it to the sail. I have tried several times to use the diluted glue I used for the layers of the sails. but it doesn't seem to stick. Also, I am quite impressed with the fact that you the bolt rope exactly on the edge. Can you share how you did that? 

[TomShipModel]

Good evening,

 

This is from earlier in this post;

"The third photo shows the sail drying.  Once dry, the bolt rope and leach cringles need to be applied.  The cringles are where the rigging is attached to the sail.  The cringles are made by looping the bolt rope and putting a seizing to secure it.  The bolt rope is fixed to the edge of the sail with a product called "No Sew".  Basically, it is a glue.  The fourth photo shows the completed sail.  I didn't include the reef band or reef band because it would be completely hidden."

 

and from a latter reply:

 

"The bolt rope should be size 1 1/2" or 2".  The size of rope is circumference so divide 3.14 to get full size diameter.  On a prototype sail of the period, the head rope was a bit larger than the rest of the bolt rope.  For the model, you won't see the difference.   For the main sail, I went all around.  On square sails I usually leave off a short part of the rope on the sides to make furling easier as much of the rope is hidden anyway."  

 

I estimated that the bolt rope on a sail this size on a small boat would be about 1-1/2 inch size.   Size of a rope is the circumference of a rope.  So, the diameter of the rope full size is 1.5/3.14 = 0.477.  Since the longboat is 1:24 scale, the model rope diameter is .019".  Using 0.018 is close enough.  I glued the line to the edge of the sail with full strength white glue or fabric glue as noted.  The key is that when you re-wet the sail that you do not wet the edges that the rope is glued to.  The glue will soften and un-bond if it gets wet and, I have had some come loose if I wasn't careful.  In full size practice to bolt rope is sewn to the edge of the sail, but in 1;24 the line would be very small to be in scale so I didn't sew it on.   On smaller scales I leave the sail edges wider and wrap the silk span around the rope. 

 

I hope that this helps,

 

Tom

[fnkershner]

Sorry I did overlook this response. Yes, this is the info I need. On the fore sails did you just add bolt rope to the luff & foot? And not the leach?

Edited February 27, 2022 by fnkershner

[bartley]

On 2/27/2022 at 2:15 PM, TomShipModel said:

Good evening,

 

This is from earlier in this post;

"The third photo shows the sail drying.  Once dry, the bolt rope and leach cringles need to be applied.  The cringles are where the rigging is attached to the sail.  The cringles are made by looping the bolt rope and putting a seizing to secure it.  The bolt rope is fixed to the edge of the sail with a product called "No Sew".  Basically, it is a glue.  The fourth photo shows the completed sail.  I didn't include the reef band or reef band because it would be completely hidden."

 

and from a latter reply:

 

"The bolt rope should be size 1 1/2" or 2".  The size of rope is circumference so divide 3.14 to get full size diameter.  On a prototype sail of the period, the head rope was a bit larger than the rest of the bolt rope.  For the model, you won't see the difference.   For the main sail, I went all around.  On square sails I usually leave off a short part of the rope on the sides to make furling easier as much of the rope is hidden anyway."  

 

I estimated that the bolt rope on a sail this size on a small boat would be about 1-1/2 inch size.   Size of a rope is the circumference of a rope.  So, the diameter of the rope full size is 1.5/3.14 = 0.477.  Since the longboat is 1:24 scale, the model rope diameter is .019".  Using 0.018 is close enough.  I glued the line to the edge of the sail with full strength white glue or fabric glue as noted.  The key is that when you re-wet the sail that you do not wet the edges that the rope is glued to.  The glue will soften and un-bond if it gets wet and, I have had some come loose if I wasn't careful.  In full size practice to bolt rope is sewn to the edge of the sail, but in 1;24 the line would be very small to be in scale so I didn't sew it on.   On smaller scales I leave the sail edges wider and wrap the silk span around the rope. 

 

I hope that this helps,

 

Tom

Tom,

 

I know this is a while ago but when you made furled sails for the longboat you seemed to have reduced the height of the main by about 50% Is this correct?  And do you dye the silkspan, or leve it natural?

 

Thanks,

 

John

[TomShipModel]

Good evening, John,

 

The reduction in the height of the sail depends on how much you wish to furl; meaning completely furled or, as I did, partially lowered.  50% or so worked for the look I was working toward.  If you wanted to lower the gaff more, 25 to 30%.  Just keep in mind that the number of gromets and lacing line around the mast would be the same as for a raised sail.

 

Regarding color, for some reason the brownish gray that I got gave me the look that I wanted.  Rather than dying, some have used acrylics to gt different coloring and effects.

 

I hope that this answers your question.  Happy ship modeling,

 

Tom

[bartley]

On 1/15/2022 at 12:08 PM, fnkershner said:

On my first try I did try to smooth out the wrinkles with my fingers and ended up with holes in the fabric. But I will try what you suggest again tomorrow.

I have found that these little foam rollers help the wrinkles issue enormously

 

 

You can lift a corner and gently roll towards that.  Any remaining wrinkles can be rolled out towards the edges

 

Incidentally I also found that if you spent too much time brushing glue on the sail, tiny pieces of silkspan detach and cause tiny bumps on the next layer

Edited September 8 by bartley

[TomShipModel]

I'd be interested is how they work.   I've also smoothed out the wrinkles with a weight bristle brush.  On first impression, the sponge may not be stiff enough smooth out the wrinkles.  I think that these are intended to apply glue etc.  If they work for you that's great.

 

Tom

  

[bartley]

Yes, Tom, they are intended for applying glue or paint but the foam is quite stiff and I find that with a little pressure toward the perimeter of the sail the wrinkles are rolled out. The large one is about 40 mm and the small one about 20 mm .  It may not work for everyone of course and you have much more experience than me on using your fingers.

 

Regards,

 

John