Help from German speaking readers needed…

[Waldemar]

.

Hello,

 

I need you to check my translation of an ancient, ships related German text:

 

 

My transcription:

„Der Weise Hundt bedarff 12 Stück von 4 oder
5 tb eisen Auff diese Weise Hundt die Schife mit
Stücken von nethen zue besagen undt ist zue ehr arhten
daß man auf den galehen bey 24 Stücke nohmal
bedarfe das man von den Schifen so kleinest samt
der zue gebrauchen Beute weg großere Stuckerin zue
stellen werden“.

 

… and an attempted translation:

[The ship] „White Dog” needs 12 [artillery] pieces of 4 or
5 pounds [of] iron [shot] for this „White Dog”. There are talks
of an approaching armed fleet from the Netherlands,
[and] that for the galleys it is still needed 24 [artillery] pieces, [and]
that from the smallest ships and from the old prizes bigger [artillery] pieces
will be taken off.

 

Historical context:

This is a fragment of a spy report from 1628, created for, and actually sent to the opposite side of the war-conflict.

 

Please feel free to make any plausible corrections.

 

Thank you in advance,

Waldemar

Edited August 5, 2021 by Waldemar

[druxey]

Perhaps: "The White Hound needs 12 (guns) of 4 or 5 pound caliber..."

[Waldemar]

Many thanks for your input, druxey, so much more as I’m close to getting a headache.

 

 

Perhaps this interpretation could be better:

 

„White Dog/White Hound“ requires 12 guns shooting 4 or 5 pounds of iron [shot]. On this „White Dog“, meaning one of the ships with guns from Netherlands.

 

And the way to provide 24 lacking guns for the galleys, is removing larger cannons from the smallest ships and the old prizes.

 

 

Please make any critical comments.

[Oboship]

Hello Waldemar,

This is a tricky one, and although I'm German I am not able to read he original script.

 

Der Weise Hundt bedarff 12 Stück von 4 oder
5 tb eisen Auff diese Weise Hundt die Schife mit
Stücken von nethen zue besagen undt ist zue ehr arhten
daß man auf den galehen bey 24 Stücke nohmal
bedarfe das man von den Schifen so kleinest samt
der zue gebrauchen Beute weg großere Stuckerin zue
stellen werden“.

 

So, let us try: "Der Weise Hundt" could perhaps also be the "Wise Hound"; 

"zue besagen" might be "zu besiegen" = to defeat;

"undt ist zu ehr arhten" could be "und ist zu bedenken" = and it is to be considered or noted;

"nohmal bedarfe" could be "nochmal bedarf" = require another;

 

My suggestion (considering this is a spy report):

"The Wise/ White Hound requires 12 guns of 4 or 5 lbs in order to defeat the armed ("Schife mit Stücken") Dutch (nethen?) ships, and it is to be noted that another 24 guns are required on the galleys because of the numerous ("großere Stuckerin") smaller vessels and the usable prey ("zu gebrauchen Beute")"

 

What do you think?

Best regards
Uwe

 

 

[Waldemar]

 

Uwe – many, many thanks for your help.

 

I could not even imagine that the task would be so hard. Perhaps some more historical context is in order:

 

The Dutch (war)fleet was considered an ally, and it actually came later this year to successfully remove the seaborne blockade of the trading harbour city.

 

On the other hand, a few individual Dutch and English trading ships were seized and confiscated, for the „illicit“ trade with the other side of the conflict. „Weisse Hund“ was one of these confiscated Dutch ships, and subsequently put into naval service (some of these arrested ships were later returned to its original owners, but in such cases the ships' guns were kept). The exact name of „Weisse Hund“ is happily known from other, official documents. Some of these arrested ships had few guns, some not at all. Some were (structurally) fit for naval service, some not.

 

Now I am trying to combine Uwe and druxey suggestions with the above facts, and of course would be happy to get even more ideas from you.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Waldemar

[Waldemar]

 

Uwe, your translation concerning galleys was truly a breakthrough. I have rearranged it a bit in order to get crystal clear meaning. I need you now to check if my understanding of your translation is correct or otherwise.

 

And it is considered to arm the galleys with another 24 guns (besides the guns already on other ships), in order to repel numerous smaller (enemy) vessels, and also to seize useful goods (from the enemy).

 

Cheers,

Waldemar

Edited August 6, 2021 by Waldemar

[Oboship]

Thank you, Waldemar!

Your re-arranged text sounds good and seems plausible to me. The adjusted wording is of course easier to read now.

 

Best regards
Uwe

 

 

 

[Waldemar]

Must say that I am very glad with the outcome, otherwise impossible to achieve alone. Many thanks again for your help.

 

... and for your information (in case you would be curious) – this very ship, „Weisse Hund“, together with some others, was ultimately lost to the other side of the conflict four years later, in 1632, upon falling of the naval base at Wismar, until then held by the Imperial forces. 

 

Greetings, Waldemar

Edited August 7, 2021 by Waldemar

[Waldemar]

I have re-read and re-transcribed the first part of the script. Could you please take a look again?

 

Der Weise Hundt bedarff 12 Stück von 4 oder 5 tb eisen. Auff diese Weise seindt die Schife mit Stücken von nethen zue besagen [besäen?].

 

English translation:

The "Weisse Hund" requires 12 guns of 4 or 5 pounds of iron [roundshot]. In this way the (arrested) Dutch ships with guns are to be sowed [ie. outfitted with more guns making them suitable for the naval service].

 

Does it make sense to you?

 

Cheers, Waldemar

Edited August 8, 2021 by Waldemar

[druxey]

Close! Perhaps a looser translation that is more easily understood:

 

The White Hound needs twelve 4 or 5 pounder guns. To do this....

[Oboship]

Hi Waldemar,

"seindt" could mean "sind" = are
"zue besagen" might as well mean to provide (besorgen, versorgen). If we look at your last transcription and your interpretation of "to be sowed",

this might give another meaning -a bit far fetched, perhaps- but if you sow something you may as well plant something or put something (i.e. guns in this case) in place or provide something...

 

I tried to look up some ancient German dictionaries or translations, but except for "bedarff" I did not find anything suitable in the internet. Therefore the thought occured if the original script really is German or rather Dutch, as both languages have similarities. But then, I'm no linguist and can only guess.

 

Are you researching the Dutch-English wars?

 

Cheers
Uwe

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Waldemar]

Druxey, you have touched my sensitive spot: is it better to keep the original flavour of the script (by translating it literally as much as possible), or perhaps to make it more natural for the modern reader?

 

Must confess, that I still can not resolve this issue, but am gradually leaning to your suggestion...

 

Thank you,
Waldemar

[Chapman]

Moin Waldemar!

4 hours ago, Waldemar said:

The "Weisse Hund" requires 12 guns of 4 or 5 pounds of iron [roundshot].

The term Iron refers to the gun barrel. At the time, a decision was made between iron and bronze guns, the latter being referred to as "metal" guns.

[Waldemar]

 

Hello Chapman!

 

Many thanks for your input. You are perfectly right. Nevertheless, I would like to clarify why I have chosen otherwise. Please take a look at the other, more typical sample of this document (incidentally much more easier to interpret):

 

 

(my) transcription:

 

No 6. Daß Schüff Mehr Weüb

4 Metallen Stück süßen Kugel von 3 tb eisen

2 Metallen Stuck schißen Kugl von 2 tb

2 Metallen Barsen schißen Kugl von ½ tb

2 Eiserne Stuck schißen Kugel von 6 tb

2 Eiserne Stuck schißen Kugel von 5 tb

2 Eiserne Stuck schißen Kugel von 3 tb

4 Kleine Stein Stück mit Kammern

Suma der Metallen undt eiseren Stück 18

Mangelen Stck 2

 

As can be seen, there are indeed both „kinds“ of guns listed here: bronze („Metallen“), (cast-)iron („Eiserne“), and perhaps even wrought-iron guns (4 small breechloaders, most probably swivel guns).

 

Please also see the word „eisen“ (in red) at the end of the 2nd line, which must refer to the material of the roundshot („Kugel”). This way the gun type was clearly defined – long barreled true bored cannon capable of shooting roundshot, in contrast to other types of ordnance, most importantly langridge-shot guns („Schrot Stucke” in this document) – usually light, short and with conical bores. At least I imagine so…

 

Cheers, Waldemar

Edited August 8, 2021 by Waldemar

[Waldemar]

Uwe, thank you very much again for your much helpful efforts. And yes, it may well be a German-Dutch linguistic mix, a sort of lingua franca of the southern Baltic harbour-cities (for instance – „van“ instead of „von“ in this document).

 

This document relates to an earlier, most devastating conflict of the era – the Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), mostly a land warfare, but with some naval „accents“ too. 

 

Greetings, Waldemar

Edited August 8, 2021 by Waldemar

[Waldemar]

 

Druxey and Uwe, I have elected to use your suggestions. Taking the term „zue besagen“ as „zu besorgen“ („to provide“), and considering the general, ie. historical context, here the final(?) translation:

 

 

Der Weise Hundt bedarff 12 Stück von 4 oder 5 tb eisen. Auff diese Weise seindt die Schife mit Stücken von nethen zue besagen.

 

The "Weisse Hund" needs twelve 4 or 5 pounder guns. In the same way (all other seized/arrested) Dutch ships are to be provided with guns.

 

 

If you would not deny its compatibility with the original text, I would keep it this way.

 

Cheers, Waldemar

[druxey]

Whew! I'm glad it was not a longer document....

 

Perhaps use 'captured' instead of 'arrested', as the latter term is applied to persons, not objects.

[Waldemar]

 

Druxey, (un)fortunately, it is a longer document – some six pages long. In this way you have prompted me to show yet another fragment, asking for your help, although in this case I am pretty sure of my understanding/translation. But perhaps I am wrong, please check:

 

 

 

 

(my) transcription:

 

In diesem Jahr seindt auf den Schiffen 5 eiserne Stuck zersprängen allß auff der Arhnahe.

1 Eiserneß Stück scheist Kügel von 3½ tb

3 Eiserne Stuck sind auff den Schif Sanct Görgen gesprängen 1 Stuck schoß Kügel von 5 tb, 2 dito schosen Kugel von 6 tb

1 Eisern Stück ist auff den Schiff Mehr Weib gesprängen schost Kügel von 6 tb

 

1 Metallen Falconetel ist in der Schlatedt Zwey gesprängen

1 Kleineß Metallen Falconet ist in der Schlaht über bordt kommen.

 

attempted translation:

 

In this year (ie. 1628), 5 more iron guns were distributed to the ships comparing to the last year [, of these]:

1 iron 3½ pounder gun,

3 iron guns were allocated to the ship „Sankt Georg“, (namely) one 5-pounder gun and two 6-pounder guns,

1 iron gun was assigned to the ship „Meerweib“ – 6-pounder

 

[also]

1 bronze falconet has blown up in two in the [last] battle

1 small bronze falconet has fallen overboard in the [last] battle

 

It is important to make it right, so please do not hesitate to intervene…

 

Cheers, Waldemar

Edited August 9, 2021 by Waldemar

[druxey]

I'd say your translation here is pretty good, Waldemar! For smoother reading in English I'd slightly change it:

 

This year (ie. 1628), 5 more iron guns were distributed to the ships than last year [, of these]:

1 iron 3½ pounder gun,

3 iron guns were allocated to the ship Saint George, (namely) one 5-pounder gun and two 6-pounders,

1 iron gun was assigned to the ship Sea Wife; a 6-pounder.

 

[also]

1 bronze falconet burst in half in action.

1 small bronze falconet fell overboard in battle.

[Waldemar]

 

😃

 

Druxey – the Eagle Eye, thank you so much...

 

[Oboship]

Hi Waldemar,

Coming back to your last transcript: be careful to use the word scheist, this is the equivalent to the English sh*** 🤫  Schiest or schießt would be correct.

Apart from this I'm a bit confused now over the transscript. "Zersprängen" would seem to me rather something like to burst (explode?; see as well the word "gesprängen") and "Arhnahe" doesn't make sense to me at all.

"Schlatedt Zwey" -I have no idea; "Mehr Weib" could also be "Mermaid".

Just a few thoughts...

Take care
Uwe

[Waldemar]

 

Uwe, again much needed relief…

 

 

Must confess, that I have surrendered the efforts to translate the original ships‘ names, which are always found in German in all extant documents anyway. Besides, as you have already noticed, it is too tricky.

 

There is hardly any ortography in this script, and the word‘s meaning must be derived from the context as well. Let alone my transcription mistakes.

 

„sheist“ – this is a seemingly correct transcription, but I have replaced it with „shiest“, just to avoid controversy you have remarked.

 

„… in der Schlatedt Zwey gesprängen“ – I have taken it losely as „… in der Schlacht [in] zwei gesprungen“. I suppose, the word „gesprängen“ (meaning „burst“), should be even transcribed here as „gesprungen“ directly.

 

„der Ahrnahe“ – this is perhaps the worst. I am thinking on it now…

 

 

Cheers, Waldemar

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  I remember from a German class (many decades ago) a sentence was written on the chalkboard: Hirs heisst der Man am Ecke.  ('Hirs' refers to a man's name.)  The German sentence  translates: 'Hirs' (is the) name (of) the man on the corner.  The instructor said to try and say the sentence quickly ... and then it sounded like I said, Hir shiest der Man am Ecke. (Here poops the man on the corner.)  A slight change in diction or pronunciation can radically change the meaning in many languages.

 

  When John F. Kennedy made his famous Berlin speech (in English) , he ended by saying in German, "Ich bin ein Berliner." - meaning "I am a Berliner".  Unfortunately, his Boston accent sounded to the crowd as if he said, "Ich bin ein Bellina."  Now a Bellina is a popular confection much like our jelly doughnut, so the hushed silence from the crowd was because many thought he just said, "I am a jelly doughnut."  They quickly 'got it' and arrived at the correct meaning, then applauded.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Snug Harbor Johnny
typos

[Waldemar]

 

😊

 

I much liked the second, situational story...

[Waldemar]

Well, this is hopefully the last mystery to be resolved:

 

Could the phrase „5 Stück sind gesprungen“ mean „5 guns are split (ie. distributed)“ or rather „5 guns burst“? The first meaning perhaps more in line with historical context, but the second meaning linguistically more probable.

 

Or:

In diesem Jahr seindt auf den Schiffen 5 eiserne Stuck zersprungen allß auff der (Arh nahe?)

 

1st meaning:

This year 5 iron guns were distributed to the ships, all of them to the [ship] Arca Noë.

 

2nd meaning:

This year 5 iron guns burst on the ships, all on the [ship] Arca Noë.

 

Which one is more convincing?

 

Cheers, Waldemar

Edited August 10, 2021 by Waldemar

[druxey]

Perhaps a looser but more accurate rendering might be:

 

This year, out of the iron guns on these ships, five split; all on the ship Noah's Ark.

[Waldemar]

 

 

Oh my …! Druxey, Uwe! What a script! Ye dredded speltcheker stryked yettagan… And no typewriters already in 1628?

 

So many traps...

[Oboship]

I still would opt for "burst". "Zersprängen" or "gesprängen" as you have it in your transcript would have to me the same meaning. The first would be the verb (zerspringen), while the latter would be a grammatical tense (gesprungen). Anyway, ..."sprängen" does not give me any hint to "distribute". Besides, in today's German we have the word "sprengen" which means a contolled and deliberate explosion (e.g. if an old chimney or another building has to be destroyed on purpose). I will not go any deeper now as we have also "springen" which is to jump or to hop.......

I know, this is a "bursting" language...🙂

Cheers
Uwe

[Waldemar]

 

Well, I consider the work done. Accepted almost all your suggestions ("bursting" instead of "distributing" too, thanks Uwe). The rest of this document is a quite simple-to-apprehend listing of ships and their artillery armament. Thank you very much again for your input. Much appreciated.

 

For those curious, I have found this document lately in the Swedish archives in Stockholm, and am preparing it for the first-time public presentation. It contains much of the yet unknown data, not even available from the official documents: this is the exhaustive listing of all the fleet’s ships with their complete artillery armament.

 

The fleet national aspects are quite interesting, and may look even strange today. Perhaps you wish to guess its (nominal) nationality?

 

– created on the order, and mostly acted on behalf of the Swedish-born ruler,

– built by German shipwrights, under supervision of a Scotsman,

– administered by the Naval Commission, based in German-speaking, semi-independent city, with German-speaking officials as its members (almost exclusively),

– commanded by German and Dutch-born admirals,

– manned mostly by German-speaking crews,

– documents concerning the management of the fleet, and the correspondence between its owner and the administrative body as well, were all in German (just as this spy report).

 

Would you try?

Edited August 10, 2021 by Waldemar

[Waldemar]

 

Proudly presenting the results of our efforts:

 

This year, out of the iron guns on the ships, five burst:

on the „Arca Noë“ – 1 iron 3½-pounder gun,
3 iron guns burst on the ship „Sankt Georg“: one 5-pounder gun and two 6-pounders,
1 iron gun burst on the ship „Meerweib“; a 6-pounder.

[also]

1 bronze falconet split in half in action.
1 small bronze falconet fell overboard in battle.

 

(I have preferred "bursting" for brittle cast-iron, and "splitting" for elastic bronze ordnance)

 

🙂

 

Power!