Scotland by kearnold - Corel - Baltic Ketch - late 1700s early 1800s - bashed then unbashed

[kearnold]

I started  "kit bashing" my Corel kit, the Baltic Ketch "Scotland" to something I like a little better, and could quite possibly happened.  I have never worked in 1:64 scale and to be honest, it is driving me bonkers.  Here is a photo progression thus far.  I thought I had photos showing how warped the keel and the frame was, but I can't seem to find them.

 

 

I have since unbashed and am building the kit according to the instructions. 

[wefalck]

Looks like a forged iron poop-deck rail, rather than a 'rope'.

[BANYAN]

I agree with Wefalck's assessment in it being a rail.  If it is britannia (wite/soft) metal I would replace it with a wood one.  This would then need several roughtree (rising) timbers with the cap rail sitting on them.

 

You're making good progress.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[kearnold]

17 hours ago, BANYAN said:

I agree with Wefalck's assessment in it being a rail.  If it is britannia (wite/soft) metal I would replace it with a wood one.  This would then need several roughtree (rising) timbers with the cap rail sitting on them.

 

You're making good progress.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Thank you!  At 1/64 scale what size mm stairs would I get to access the quarter deck? I am really bad at figuring the conversion out.

[wefalck]

Well, the distance between steps on stairs and ladder is pretty much uniform all over the world and all times: go to your staircase and measure the distance in Millimeters and divide that number by 64. My textbook on ship's joinery tells me that steps are around 200 mm high and about 220 mm deep, which roughly translates in 3 mm height at 1/64 scale and 3.5 mm deep.

[kearnold]

here are some more photos.

I am worried the wheel will be to large compared to any figurines I may purchase.  The cannon will have to be moved, or I cut a section of upper railing.  The kits door cannon and anchor seem very small for the size of the ship.  And what is going on with the bilge pump????

[wefalck]

Well, as we observed earlier, such ship were steered using the helm, rather than a steering wheel ... 

 

The gun would have been a 2-pounder or something like that and intended for signalling, rather firing in earnest at something/someone. The Baltic has been comparatively safe in the early 19th century, no pirates and such. With the barrel horizontal, it would fire under the rail.

 

In order to effectively work the pump, the fulcrum should be about waist-high. You can work it out by making yourself a scale dummy, say cutting out a figure from thin cardboard. Such a dummy is always useful to get feeling for scale and proportions. Not absolute sure that the pump would be correct for this period.

 

The black anchor, indeed, seems to be way too big. Anchor sizes are determined by weight, but it is not so easy to work out to what size this converts. The actual size would also depend on how the individual anchor is made. Perhaps someone else can help with table of anchor sizes per weight, I don't have one at my finger-tips. In any case, it would have a wooden stock.

 

Just a modelling tip: you should probably sand your parts more thoroughly. They will look more delicate when painted and fit better together.

 

 

[kearnold]

More photos 

[wefalck]

BTW, the anchor cable is laid around the spill with about three turns only and it would need to come from above to clear the forecastle deck. Also, only one cable is taken around the spill at any one time ...

[kearnold]

I just did it the way the instructions showed.  I'll see if I can fix it.  where does the other cable go if it isn't around the spill?

 

 

[kearnold]

What size mm thread do I need?

[wefalck]

The unused anchor-cable my be just lead underneath the spill and lashed at a convenient point. 

 

The diameter of the cable would beed to be calculated from the weight of the anchor. There are contemporary textbook sources for this, but I don't have them at the tip of my fingers. Perhaps someone else can chip in here.

[kearnold]

would the 2 posts sticking out from the front be used for anything?  the attached pic is from someone else's build, and I kind of like how he did it.  The instructions for the kit just show the anchor rope going around what I call the "windlass".  "Spill" is a new term for me.

I am debating on add the railings and the supports for them.  I still haven't decided

[wefalck]

I gather you refer to the anchor-cranes ?

[Roger Pellett]

I know that you are enjoying “freelancing” this model, but sooner or later you are faced with mechanical reality- does what you are doing actually make physical sense.  Such is the case with the windlass.   With two cables wrapped around the windlass barrel, how do you drop just one anchor, and what do you do with the unused cable.

 

Deep sea vessels on long voyages would sail with anchors securely lashed down and cables stored below. The anchor and its cable would only be readied for use when she vessel reached shallow water near its destination.  You are building a coasting vessel, that could need its anchors throughout the voyage.  It would, therefore, not be unusual to have one anchor set up to be used, with the other on standby as a backup.  Windlasses on coasting vessels often were equipped with an arbor or beam extending across the top.  This allowed the unused cable to be hung in loose coils encircling the windlass barrel.  When the other anchor was dropped the windlass could rotate without engaging the second cable.

 

I also believe that whenever possible, crews avoided rotating the windlass when dropping the anchor.  The cable screaming around the windlass barrel propelled by the weight of the anchor must have been dangerous to both ship and crew.  They did this by laying out the required amount of cable in large loops on the deck ahead of the windlass; between the anchor and the windlass.  Once the anchor hit bottom, the ship was backed and the cable could be paid out gradually.

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

[kearnold]

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

I gather you refer to the anchor-cranes ?

Possibly.  The instructions didn't name them.

[kearnold]

6 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

I know that you are enjoying “freelancing” this model, but sooner or later you are faced with mechanical reality- does what you are doing actually make physical sense.  Such is the case with the windlass.   With two cables wrapped around the windlass barrel, how do you drop just one anchor, and what do you do with the unused cable.

 

Deep sea vessels on long voyages would sail with anchors securely lashed down and cables stored below. The anchor and its cable would only be readied for use when she vessel reached shallow water near its destination.  You are building a coasting vessel, that could need its anchors throughout the voyage.  It would, therefore, not be unusual to have one anchor set up to be used, with the other on standby as a backup.  Windlasses on coasting vessels often were equipped with an arbor or beam extending across the top.  This allowed the unused cable to be hung in loose coils encircling the windlass barrel.  When the other anchor was dropped the windlass could rotate without engaging the second cable.

 

I also believe that whenever possible, crews avoided rotating the windlass when dropping the anchor.  The cable screaming around the windlass barrel propelled by the weight of the anchor must have been dangerous to both ship and crew.  They did this by laying out the required amount of cable in large loops on the deck ahead of the windlass; between the anchor and the windlass.  Once the anchor hit bottom, the ship was backed and the cable could be paid out gradually.

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

I am banging my head against the wall right now. What you said makes perfect sense what others have said makes perfect sense and yes I'm sure you are all correct. However all I have is a set of really crappy instructions. Many of the items in the kit are not to the proper scale some are to small some are to big. There are aspects of the directions that are left out, so I've got drawings that I'm trying to work off of. The way I have strung the anchors is what the picture shows in the instructions. If you look at the picture I posted above from somebody else's build you will see that the Rope is doing the same thing it's wrapped around The Windlass and going down into a hole. The only thing that that person did differently was they hung their anchors in a different fashion using whatever those posts are that are sticking out from the front of the boat.

Edited October 26, 2021 by kearnold

[kearnold]

As for making it historically accurate, yes I am fetching things here and there. And I'm probably going to rip the wheel out and replace it with the Ritter killer bar just because so many people seem to think that having a wheel is wrong. I'm trying to find a scale miniature that I could use for comparison purposes and I'm having difficulty figuring out the best way to do it. So far I've been told a person would be anywhere from 20 to 30 mm in height if that's the case then the Cannons that came with the ship all about the size of a shotgun

 

NOTE: talk to texed on my phone.  Ritter killer=Rudder Tiller

Edited October 26, 2021 by kearnold

[kearnold]

To be honest, everything that is going on with this kit is starting to put me off doing these ships at all. I have never had so many problems building anything as I have with this particular model

[BANYAN]

Don't get too dispirited; the feed back is offered to help and this is all part of the learning process.  A kit 'bash' can be problematic and at times disheartening, especially if the parts are of poor quality or inappropriate to the model.  I am not familiar with a Ritter Killer bar - is that some form of tiller or the European 'candy' bar? 

 

The best way to determine the appropriate sizes is to first determine the average size (height) of the crew for the period.  Once you have established that, draw up a quick look-up or reference table that allows easy determination for various sizes (say in 3 inch increments; 1 inch would be better), and convert to metric for the scale you are working.  Then search the internet for the types of items to reference against.  For a tiller, do a search on mid-18th century tiller, or mid-18th century steering etc, and note from the resulting images the estimated height the tiller appears against the people/crew where that it is possible.   The pictures should also provide some ideas on the configuration - usually a long tapered bar, some rounded towards its forward end, and that is morticed into the rudder head.  Sometimes they have cleats, or maybe holes to accept tiller ropes, or even as for Endeavour have a metal end  Unfortunately, a tiller would be something you may have to scratch build - using HM Bark Endeavour as a reference may help?

 

This is a picture of the tiller I made for my HMB Endeavour which may give you some ideas - this was built at 1:60 scale.

 

 

If this model is intended as a personal interpretation of a vessel you like, build it as you would like - the suggestions being offered are only intended to help with the way you present your choices; I don't think anyone is trying to change your mind on what you wish to use/build.  The windlass/anchor cable suggestion for example, is simply a suggestion that only a single cable would be rigged.  It is your choice whether to accept the suggestion.

 

Cheers, and good luck.  Please keep plugging away at it.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited October 26, 2021 by BANYAN

[kearnold]

making the tiller bar would not be difficult.  I would probably remove the binnacle too.  Repatch the floor with new planking and put the bashed stuff into a desk drawer to forget about it.

According to what someone told me 25mm figures would work, 30mm wold be just a wee bit to tall, but would work too.  the only other thing I would have to fix would be the door going below decks.  As for the anchor ropes, I am leaving them as it shown in the instructions.  Maybe the "Coral" curse will be lifted then and I can move on.

[kearnold]

14 hours ago, kearnold said:

making the tiller bar would not be difficult.  I would probably remove the binnacle too.  Repatch the floor with new planking and put the bashed stuff into a desk drawer to forget about it.

According to what someone told me 25mm figures would work, 30mm wold be just a wee bit to tall, but would work too.  the only other thing I would have to fix would be the door going below decks.  As for the anchor ropes, I am leaving them as it shown in the instructions.  Maybe the "Coral" curse will be lifted then and I can move on.

[BANYAN]

Keep plugging away mate; I fully understand the frustrations.  I am experiencing the same woes with my current build   Now that you have made a decision it should all come together.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[kearnold]

Let the "unbashing "  begin!

[kearnold]

Looking okay so far.

[BANYAN]

Nice recovery, and you are progressing well.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[kearnold]

Tiller done, door done, anchors hung, quarterdeck done.  Time to re do the rails. Captain Plank seems to like his new digs.

[kearnold]

A few new files working on my new hobby desk

[kearnold]

I have started the rigging and will be doing the shrouds soon.

Before anyone says my anchor ropes are incorrect and only 1 should be around the windlass.  I know.  I had this conversation before and I finally said the hell with it.  I am doing what the instructions for the ship show.  (see earlier photos)

[BANYAN]

You're making good progress now, hopefully you won't have the same issues with the rigging (what to include/exclude that is).

 

cheers

 

Pat