WHAT THE!!! My rope is SQUARE!

[von stetina]

I've had excellent results making rope on my rope walk untill I tried using DMC Cordennet. It came out distinctly square in section. This thread is made of Egytian Cotton and plain thead of this type made beautiful rope, also Londonderry Linen, though one was too fuzzy and the other too lumpy even after treatment.

 

I know I did something wrong and am about to try again with it. Before I do does anyone have a time and material saving hint? The DMC Cordennet is LH and I Had wanted LH but not now. On my plans for my clipper it states that all Russian Hemp standing rigging was RH, [a surprise to me] I plan on making RH this time as my plans are by a renowned clipper researcher, William Crothers. Will using LH to make RH cure my problem?

 

Von Stetina    [bruce]

[dafi]

I had this problem too, when I used Crochet Yarn. Did you try to vary the settings, like pretension, counterweight, revolutions etc?

 

Daniel

[Chuck]

This usually only happens when you put two threads on each spindle or even three.  If you are only using one thread this is something that doesnt happen.  

 

From my experience,  there is only one sure way to combat this.  But can you confirm that you are indeed having this issue when putting two or more threads on each spindle of your ropewalk in order to make thicker rope?   There is another method too but it requires more space.

 

Chuck

[von stetina]

Hi Chuck,  Suspicion confirmed. 2 on each of the 4 whirls. Only the DMC did it. It was very nice, but sguare. I'll appreciate your advice.

 

Thanks Janos and Daniel.

 

Bruce

[edbardet]

Keep the roap and use it for shrouds! Thats how it got it's name "shroud-laid". Really shroud-laid  is four strands, but if it looks square may be usefull.

Ed

[JerseyCity Frankie]

 Adjusting the hardness of the line a little tighter or a little looser would, on paper anyway, break up the harmonic and give you round line. But making the lay tighter may not be possible and making it looser may look wrong too. 

Edited August 8, 2013 by JerseyCity Frankie

[Chuck]

The only way to combat this 100% is to create a rope with only one thread on each first...no issue there.  Then take those ropes and make a larger one.  You will never get a square rope that way.  Although you will go left handed then to right-handed rope etc.  It takes a long time to make rope that way.

 

But,  you may have more success trying this.  I know I t has worked for me.  Forget using two on each of the four whirls.  Instead,  use three on only three whirls.

 

Then,  if you were turning the initial strands 150 times....simply double it,  or even triple it.  The initial twisting must be really tight.  This will cause the strands to condense significantly but will combat the squareness effectively.  For example,  I start with three on each whirl where they are 25' long.   I twist them until the strands become 20.5' long.   I twist them until they are just about to knot up upon themselves.   

 

Then when you twist all three together,  make sure you keep the rope taught as it lays up.  In this case,  I dont over twist at all.  Over twisting seems to amplify the square profile.

 

Give it a try...see what happens.  Remember to really make the initial strands on each whirl tightly wound together.  Thats the key.  if its not when you twist all three together to make the final rope...its the looseness that creates the square shape.  The three strands have too much room between each of there loosely wound threads for the lay to form correctly.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

This black line was made that way.   I have taken three strands on each whirl and made them tight.  You can see the rope is not square.   While experimenting I initially had the strands much looser and it did result in the square shape you are talking about.  So this corrected that issue nicely.

 

Chuck

 

[von stetina]

Hi Chuck,  I'll give this a try, makes sense. I need 11 1/2 shrouds and stays. A lot of them as the clipper Lightning had this size all the way back to her topgallants. Knowing you work in my scale helps. I'm using size 80 thread to make these up. I used 2 strands on 4 whirls. I guess at 1/8 scale I can get away with using only 3 whirls, but now my starting size will change. I've also ordered many larger sizes so I'll see how the sizes look. If I get lucky I can find a size to let me use 1 per whirl. I need a lot of sizes and have been making them OK. putting up to 3 strands on each whirl. This square problem is  something else! When I switched to Londonderry Linen or plain Egyptian Cotton it went away. Lots to learn!

 

I'll let you know how I make out when my thread arrives. Last delivery took a while. I sure hope mine looks like yours. I couldn't find black and will have to dye it. Only ecru and white were available. Any recommendations?

 

Thanks,  Bruce

[Chuck]

For my black I used Rit dye.   It works well and doesnt make the rope stiff like using water-based wood stain.  You can basically buy any colors you want.   Just mix a little with water and add salt in a bucket.   Coil your finished rope and dip it in for a while.   Then pull it out and rinse.  To get a really rich and deep black you have to leave it in the dye for a while.

[druxey]

Is there a connection between 'square' line and using an even numbers of strands, rather than odd?

[von stetina]

Hi Druxey, Good Question. I've done both, but all comes out well except with the DMC Cordennet. I'm anxious to try Chucks method. I need to modify my machine as I had a single hook down the other end. Maybe this was a big part of the problem I built my machine Like the Longridge book on the Victory.

 

Bruce

[druxey]

My first ropewalk was from Longridge's design. I always had trouble with it until I saw a real 'top'. This was not bullet-shaped as his was, but a long cone with the grooves straight rather than curving. This had much less friction and solved most of my difficulties.

[von stetina]

 Chuck, I'm afraid of the salt in the cloth dye. I'm afraid I won't get it all out. Last lower rigging kept going very slack and I had to cut it all off and started over. My thought is that some salt was left in the rope. Even waxed it still drooped bad and was good linen.

I used Dylon brand and the black was weak. Rit would have been better. I used to tie dye T shirts with it and it was good. For running rigging I bought Ecru color and will modify if/as needed, actually I bought all ecru as only that and white were available.

Right now I'm experimenting with India Ink reduced slightly with water. I'm getting good penetration and it isn't stiff.

 

Druxey, Yes, my top sounds like yours and works great . I love watching it run up the rope. It's shaped like a  pointed rifle bullet.On the machine I'm changing the one end now to be sort of like Keith's. I can't afford a 2nd new motor right now. I'm looking for an old electric can opener cheap, or a drill. I think static hooks will be OK. What do you think?

 

Bruce

Edited August 10, 2013 by von stetina

[Chuck]

Yes I know the salt can be a problem...but believe it or not.  You can drop an entire ball in a pot of Rit dye with salt.  If you leave it in the pot of hot dye solution you get some pretty good penetration.  The color comes out rich.   I actually mixed rit brown with the black just so it wasnt so dark....but the results werent consistent so I just started using black.  

 

Chuck

[von stetina]

That sounds pretty good, doing a whole ball at once. I have an earlier conversation in this rigging section about my slack rigging problem. I felt my problem was possibly left over salt and that I had used shellac instead of wax. My lower stays and shrouds drooped very badly when my AC was on, and went tight when it was off despite rainy weather. I now have Conservator's Wax.

 

I like Ritt too, I'll pick some up if I can find it in this back country area. Can always order some too. I had new Dylon on hand that used only salt as a setting agent. I have very old Dylon that has a setting agent that seems to be a household soda. It says to add salt too though. I wonder if I could use only the soda on my new dye?

 Unlike the new Dylon I used it says to wash it with detergent. I'll do at test. However my mother inlaw gave this old dye  to me...it may turn my rigging to ash!

 

My new thread arrived today. Ecru is too pale so I tried an experiment with raw umber acrylic ink. Looks good. But I'll try some finer thread to check for stiffness.

 

Bruce