Bill97 Posted September 16, 2023 Author Share #1051 Posted September 16, 2023 Now on to working with these topgallant masts and trestle trees. 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubac's Historian Posted September 16, 2023 Share #1052 Posted September 16, 2023 The rig all looks neat and taught, Bill! Quote We are all works in progress, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 16, 2023 Author Share #1053 Posted September 16, 2023 Ok thoughts, opinions, recommendations. Here is a mock up of the main topgallant mast height and the corresponding shroud spread. Also I am looking at an aggressive cut of 5mm off each side of the cross trees and the aft side of the trestle tree. That will be the same as the distance between the cross trees. Pictures 1 and 2 are using a 3 5/8” topgallant Pictures 3 and 4 are using a 4 1/2” topgallant Pictures 5 and 6 are the height of the Heller included topgallant of 5 1/4”. Thoughts and opinions. Do any of these seem satisfactory or go back to drawing board? Archi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted September 16, 2023 Share #1054 Posted September 16, 2023 (edited) 20th anniversary Edited September 16, 2023 by popeye2sea Hubac's Historian 1 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrus Manus Posted September 16, 2023 Share #1055 Posted September 16, 2023 6 hours ago, Hubac's Historian said: Ahhh, I was not aware of 4H. I did an image search and pulled that extract from Souvenirs from the first site I found. That is the cardinal rule around here, so I will delete the post. It served its purpose for the discussion, anyway. I will delete mine. Cheers!! Hubac's Historian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubac's Historian Posted September 16, 2023 Share #1056 Posted September 16, 2023 (edited) Bill, it’s difficult to get a sense of the different t’gallant heights without a perspective shot of the entire rig. Edited September 16, 2023 by Hubac's Historian Ian_Grant 1 Quote We are all works in progress, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 16, 2023 Author Share #1057 Posted September 16, 2023 Will try to get such a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 17, 2023 Author Share #1058 Posted September 17, 2023 Marc see if this helps. I took card stock and cut out the shape of the shroud spread for the fore and main topgallant. All three have 1/8” cut off the cross trees. Photo 1 is with the topgallant unaltered from the kit size. Photo 2 is the topgallant at .5 of the top mast. Photo 3 is the topgallant at .4 of the top mast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Grant Posted September 17, 2023 Share #1059 Posted September 17, 2023 I think what it boils down to, reading Anderson, is that 0.5 is a good ratio if the topsails had no reefs; 0.4 is better if the topsails had reefs (and hence the topmast got longer). What with my personal confusion with three Soleil Royales' in different eras I have no idea if this ship kit should have reefs. Perhaps Marc or John know when topsail reefs came to be with respect to the purported date of this "model" ship. I'm taking notes for my eventual build.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 17, 2023 Author Share #1060 Posted September 17, 2023 Ian looking at the card cutouts I did to represent the shroud spread which of the three topgallant heights look the best regardless of the area. I want to build my ship with a combination of both authenticity and visual appeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubac's Historian Posted September 17, 2023 Share #1061 Posted September 17, 2023 By the time of the refit, in 1688, First rates would have been single-reefed on the fore and mainsail, and double-reefed on tue topsails. Aesthitically, I might strike a balance between .4, which seems a little short, and .5. Ian_Grant 1 Quote We are all works in progress, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 17, 2023 Author Share #1062 Posted September 17, 2023 My thought as well Marc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 18, 2023 Author Share #1063 Posted September 18, 2023 While I was debating with myself as to the height of my topgallant masts I worked on installing the four anchors. Baker, popeye2sea, ccoyle and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 20, 2023 Author Share #1064 Posted September 20, 2023 New fore and main topgallants. I kept all the plastic joint pieces, even the silly cylinder pieces. Drilled everything out and replaced with dial rods I turned to fit. Based on our discussion I made the foremast 4” and the main 4 1/2”. Surprisingly after it is too late to do anything about it I found both the fore and main topmasts were the exact same length if 9”. The bottom section of the mast is where some big difference is and now another 1/2” on the topgallant. Hubac's Historian, popeye2sea, Ian_Grant and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 21, 2023 Author Share #1065 Posted September 21, 2023 Ladies and gentlemen please take a moment to recognize this historic moment in time!! Today, the twenty-first day of September in the year 2023, I did in fact reach the summit or the highest point of my Heller Le Soleil Royal. This is truly an auspicious occasion. Proud to say looking at the ship from the stern I see all three mast, and all 3 sections of each, line up behind one another! I did aggressively trim back the cross trees and trestle trees of the fore and main mast as well as remaking all 3 topgallant masts with wood dial rods. The very fragile trestle tree on the mizzenmast did suffer some damage and I will need to repair it before I can add the topgallant shrouds. popeye2sea, Hubac's Historian, Archi and 2 others 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Grant Posted September 21, 2023 Share #1066 Posted September 21, 2023 Bill, she's looking very impressive! Good work, and keep going! 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 21, 2023 Author Share #1067 Posted September 21, 2023 Ian the yards and running rigging are where the final exam will be administered to see if I can recall everything Dr Ian Longridge taught me during my Victory build 😊. Hubac's Historian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 21, 2023 Author Share #1068 Posted September 21, 2023 Henry back a page or two around comment 1000 you gave me some advice on bracing the yards I believe you called it if I wanted to turn them a bit on the mast. You said that the yards will have parrals to hold them to the mast. The Heller instructions do not show, unless I am missing it, the installation of any type attachment apparatus for the yards. Is this another Hellerism? I planned to make and use parrals. Was surprised not to see anything suggested for attachment. On that same subject especially referring the yards being braced. I held the the bottom yard (nautical term) up to the mast where I planned ti secure it. If I brace it even a small amount it rubs up against the lower shrouds. Would this be correct? Hubac's Historian and Archi 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Grant Posted September 21, 2023 Share #1069 Posted September 21, 2023 Bill, as in their "Victory" kit, Heller did indeed omit any means of attaching the yards to the masts. You have discovered the perennial problem with square rig - the shrouds limiting the swing of the yards which limits how near the ship can sail up to the wind. In the 19th century the clippers and windjammers employed iron "trusses" which held the yard forward of the mast and could swing the yard centres out off the ship's centreline thus allowing them to be braced up sharper. In this case for these old ships I think they were just limited to staysails (the fore and aft ones) if they truly needed to get up into the wind (to claw off a lee shore, say). I suppose they could also loosen the parral to allow the yard to move forward of the mast, like they could loosen the truss pendants in later centuries, but I do not know if this was the practice in the 1600's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 21, 2023 Author Share #1070 Posted September 21, 2023 Thank you Ian. So I think I will just leave them perpendicular and don’t bother with bracing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 22, 2023 Author Share #1071 Posted September 22, 2023 As I am looking ahead I am trying to decide if I should turn my own wood dial rods to make the yards or just encase a wood rod inside the Heller plastic halves to strengthen it. I understand from you guys that the topgallant yards are too long so I will be making new ones shorter. I think the easier route would be to just add wood to the inside of the halves, but am up to the challenge to just make the new yards. Ferrus Manus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrus Manus Posted September 22, 2023 Share #1072 Posted September 22, 2023 (edited) You need to use your own parrels, Bill. This is a Hellerism I can't stand. Definitely use an adjustable parrel design so you can at least partially jam the sails around the mast. If you want, you can check out what I did on my galleon. Edited September 22, 2023 by Ferrus Manus Bill97 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrus Manus Posted September 22, 2023 Share #1073 Posted September 22, 2023 (edited) What they would do is loosen the parrel if they wanted to brace the sails around the mast, so the center of the yard could leave the mast, solving the shroud issue. I would rig the braces first, right after you rig the lifts, and then do the parrel after that. That's what i did. Edited September 22, 2023 by Ferrus Manus Bill97 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 22, 2023 Author Share #1074 Posted September 22, 2023 Thanks Ferrus Ferrus Manus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted September 22, 2023 Share #1075 Posted September 22, 2023 The lower yard should be hung right at the level of the catharpins. In fact, that is one of the functions of the catharpins. To swifter in the shrouds to allow the yard to be able to brace up to its maximum extent. Also, the foremost shroud would not be placed so that it lies before the mast. Not something you can correct for the Heller kit. Regards, Henry Ian_Grant 1 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 22, 2023 Author Share #1076 Posted September 22, 2023 (edited) Thanks Henry. Would parrels have been used on the lower yard? On my HMS Victory I used them on the top yard and topgallant yard but I don’t think I did on the lower yard. I remember Longridge directing a different rigging method for the lower yards. Edited September 22, 2023 by Bill97 Hubac's Historian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Grant Posted September 22, 2023 Share #1077 Posted September 22, 2023 Bill, see Anderson pg 143 on lower yard parrels. Hubac's Historian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted September 22, 2023 Author Share #1078 Posted September 22, 2023 Thank you Dr Ian. 😊 I got it. Ferrus Manus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrus Manus Posted September 22, 2023 Share #1079 Posted September 22, 2023 (edited) Ian and Marc are definitely the ones you need to be listening to, here. However, I do have a not-insignificant amount of experience with galleons and their rigging. If you need any help, let me know. If you properly execute my technique, you can probably get the yards as much as 45 degrees off of true. You're essentially pivoting the yard around the lee shroud instead of the mast. Edited September 22, 2023 by Ferrus Manus Ian_Grant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrus Manus Posted September 22, 2023 Share #1080 Posted September 22, 2023 It also might be possible to excise the offending pair of shrouds from the main mast, and do some surgery on the channel. MAYBE. It might simply be impossible or too much effort and risk to be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.