Tackle on guns Heller 1/100 HMS Victory

[JEFFRAV]

Can anyone tell me what size blocks you use on gun tackle on Hellers 1/100 HMS Victory.

[popeye2sea]

I am building a 1:100 Soleil Royale.  I used a 2mm block for all the gun tackles.  A 2mm block scales to 7.8 inches for the actual size. That is not far off what would be be used. And, visually it looks pleasing on the model. You get a decent drift between the two tackle blocks.

 

Regards,

 

Henry

[Gregory]

Longridge says he based his blocks on 9" full size.  That would scale to 2.28 mm.

[allanyed]

Tthe blocks sizes can be determined from the tackle circumferences.   For example, the circumference for the tackle for a 32 pounder, based on the mid 18th century Naval Regulations was 3".   For the smaller guns they were 2" to 2.5" circumference.   The lengths varied slightly and are also given.   For the 32 pounders the tackles were 60 feet long.  For 18 pounders as a comparison they were 54 feet long. 

 

Using Lees formula for calculating the lengths of the blocks on page 164 of The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, the block sizes would be as follows. 

For 3" circumference rope for 32 pounders

3/3.14= .96

0.96X1.1X1.0625 =~9"  at your scale .09"X25.4 = 2.3mm long

 

For the  2.5" circumference rope for 28 pounders  

2.5/3.14= .8"

0.8"X1.1X1.0625X8 = ~7.5" /100 = .075X25.4 = 2mm

 

For single blocks for 2" circumference rope for the 12 pounders  the blocks would be 1.5mm long at your scale.

 

While the blocks would vary in size for the size of the gun, keep in mind that with the exception of the 32 pounders, for the running out tackles there would be only single blocks used.  For the 32 pounders there would be one single and one double block for each tackle.   Caruana goes into this on page 386 in volume II of The History of English Sea Ordnance.   Same holds true for the training tackle.  We often see incorrect blocks on models where one or two doubles are mistakenly used on guns smaller than 32 pounders.    

 

Allan

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by allanyed

[JEFFRAV]

Been research and can't seem to find much. The blocks om the lower deck seem to be one single block and one double block for the 32 pounders and for the 24 pounders looks like 2 single blocks am i correct. I need to know so I can order a bunch of 2mm blocks.

Edited November 29, 2022 by JEFFRAV
Wrote the wrong thing.

[Morgan]

According to Caruana that is correct, for a 32-Pounder a single and a double to both running out tackles, and also the same for the train tackle.  For the 24-Pounders and below only single blocks on all tackle.

 

Gary

[Pak75]

Hi there

I plan to build a Heller Victory and as the 12 Pounder guns are most visible i would like to get this right.

Two follow up questions if you don’t mind:

1, There are various images on www of HMS Victory’s 12 pounder guns. Some show outhaul tackle hooked on to ring on side of gun carriage, others show tackle hooked on to ring at rear and on top of carriage. Which is correct? All other guns below have tackle hooked to side of carriage.

2. Once loaded and the gun run out, was the tackle unhooked from the gun prior to firing and flaked on the deck?

Thanks

[popeye2sea]

Hello Pak75,

 

I can not speak to question one, but for the second, the tackles were left hooked on to the gun carriage. They acted as sort of a recoil brake as the cannon was fired. When the gun was run out to the in-battery position for firing, the tackle falls were flaked down on the deck, not coiled, so that they would run clear when the gun fired.

 

Regards,

Henry

 

BTW,  Do you have a name for us to use? We are a friendly bunch here.

[Gregory]

Quite a lengthy discussion here:

 

This is how  dafi has rigged his Victory, and I know he has done a lot of research.  We have had other discussions about rings which are difficult to find documented  explanations, however they appear on many examples.  There is speculation that they may be for  lifting/moving the gun about.

 

Here is another lengthy discussion.

 

 

[Pak75]

Thanks Henry and Dr PR for replies. I asked qsn re unhooking tackles before firing as this was suggested on another forum...

I was hoping for some secondary references rather than recycling internet blogs so thanks for link to US document.

If tackles were angled to any extent as in diagram in linked blog, then they would intrude on living/eating space of gun crews between guns. Therefore, having hooks in ends of hoists means they could be easily detached and stowed.

Thanks

Stephen

[Gregory]

2 minutes ago, Pak75 said:

as in diagram in linked blog

What linked blog are you referring to?  Dr PR hasn't posted in this discussion.

 

My links are to discussions in this forum, one of which had 126 replies.

 

Those discussions contain contemporary documents and informed research regarding your question/s.

This is not the first time these questions have come up .

 

A search for "gun tackle"  returns 439 posts.

Showing results for '" gun Tackle"'. - Model Ship World™

[Pak75]

 

Please read post #9

Here is link provided by Dr PR

Thanks

 

Thanks

 

[Gregory]

23 minutes ago, Pak75 said:

Please read post #9

Here is link provided by Dr PR

Thanks

Please note who posted post #9.

I guess you are not familiar with how the forum works.

 

Post #9  was made by me, in which I provided a link to another discussion on this Forum that was started by DrPr  over 5 years ago.

It also contained a lot of other information about gun rigging, recycled as it may be.

 

We share a lot of information by 'recycling' relevant discussions, instead of  trying to answer the same questions over again.

 

In addition to Henry's excellent answer, consider how much tension was on that hook when the gun as run out; it couldn't have been unhooked without loosening the tackle, which wouldn't have been a good idea on a rolling sea.

That might be a good point to bring up at " the other Forum ".

 

[Pak75]

11 hours ago, popeye2sea said:

BTW,  Do you have a name for us to use? We are a friendly bunch here.

??

[Dr PR]

Pak75,

 

The discussion about rings or ring bolts on the sides and tops of gun carriages is a lengthy one. Different navies did things differently, so there are a lot of answers. Often gun carriages had two rings on each side, or in the case of the French at some period, rings on the top rear part of the carriage.

 

I suspect which of the two rings were used depended upon the firing angle. Guns weren't always fired perpendicular to the ship's side or the centerline. They could be angled to fire a bit forward or aft of abeam. In some cases the tackle appears to have been unhooked from one ring and hooked to the other to get a better angle or to keep the two blocks from coming together (two blocked)  before the desired angle was achieved. I have seen drawings depicting both arrangements. My guess is that the gun crews did whatever was expedient at the time regardless of what the books showed.

 

Another point to remember - often the inhaul tackles (attached to the rear of the carriage and used to haul the gun inboard) are shown rigged. This might be the case while the guns are being fired, but I doubt it. The recoiling carriage would run over the tackle. This tackle would be needed only if the gun misfired, or if it wasn't fired after being run out. And it would be used to haul in the guns if they were stowed run out (in battery) and plugged. If your model has the guns in the stowed position the inhaul wouldn't be rigged. It would be a tripping hazard. The tackle would be stowed in a dry place out of the way.

 

The gun tackle was attached to the carriage and pulled tight before the gun was fired. The rope was faked down so that it would run free without tangling. When the gun recoiled it pulled the tackle rope through the blocks, and the friction acted as a brake to slow the gun before it reached the end of the breech rope.

 

And Henry was just wondering if you have a true name, or if your mother actually named you Pak75?