Senora Fielden 1450 by Ferrus Manus - 1/24 - POB - A realistic interpretation of the Mataro Model

[Ferrus Manus]

This is going to be a POB model, so i think legos will do for ensuring the straightness of the frames. I will, in fact, need something larger than a soldering iron to bend planks, this is a 1/24th scale model (yes, i changed the scale to more closely fit my desired length). 

[Louie da fly]

Can I suggest you ask a moderator to shift this thread from where it is to "Build Logs for Scratch Projects - Up to and Including 1500 AD"?

 

Basically what you're doing at the moment seems more appropriate to an actual build log than to  "discussions for ships plans and project research" - it's more to do with a specific model (your own) than to the more general field that this section usually deals with.

 

And it means all this preliminary research and development information will be available for viewing when you actually begin to make sawdust, rather than being in a thread that then needs to be looked for separately.

 

Best wishes,

 

Steven

[Ferrus Manus]

@ccoyle are you able to do that? 

[ccoyle]

37 minutes ago, Ferrus Manus said:

@ccoyle are you able to do that? 

 

Done!

[Ferrus Manus]

I just edited the name to what i wanted the log to be called. Well, this does make it more efficient so that when wood does eventually get cut, i do not have to make another log or transfer all the research over. After all, Woodrat started cutting wood on page 2 of his own log. Personally, i think the point at which building actually commences is more of a page 3 or 4 thing for this one. 

[Ferrus Manus]

@woodrat @Snug Harbor Johnny The log is now in the section for scratch projects up to 1500, so the log's regular attendees know where to find it. 

[Ferrus Manus]

 

Here, we get a good look at the interior of the Mataro Carrack. I would like to bring your eyes to two points on the ship: The interior bulwarks and the exterior planking. First, the interior bulwarks. The interior walls of the ship are, in fact, fully planked. However, the exterior top rails on the sterncastle are long gone. However, this damage to the ship may be a good thing, as it allows us to see into the walls to have a look at the framing. The frames on the Senora Fielden, at the point where they rise from the main deck level, are to be a quarter inch thick by the half-inch thickness of the frames. I may or may not fair the thickness of the frames down as they go up toward the top, to increase stability and reduce weight. I chose the half-inch thickness for two reasons. 1: to increase the sturdiness and stability of the relatively large model. 2: to provide a large area on which to glue the ends of the strakes. 

 

The other issue of concern is how the exterior of the ship comes together. As you can see, as opposed to Woodrat's Venetian Carrack, the spaces between the deck beams are planks. Also, the scuppers are not hidden within the deck beams, but rather adjacent and slightly raised, to slightly above the deck level. The raising of the deck will be, once again, a quarter inch at the deck's widest point. This will decrease proportionally as the deck narrows. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Ferrus Manus

[Ferrus Manus]

One other thing to note is the futtock riders. In the almost 600 years of this ship's existence, most of them have likely fallen off. (the Amati kit is ridiculously inaccurate, even to the current Mataro model) and a real carrack from around that time should look like this:

There are artist errors in this ship as well. Many depictions of carracks omit the futtock riders, but that is likely in the interest of simplicity. There would probably be three midships futtock riders, and three for the sterncastle.

[Ferrus Manus]

If anyone can think of a more appropriate length-to-beam than 2/1, i would like to know. Approximately how wide should the master frame be in relation to the keel/central assembly? 

[Ferrus Manus]

I would think a l-b of more like 3/1 might be appropriate.

[woodrat]

are you talking of length of keel or length between perpendiculars? It makes a difference. Let us assume it is length of keel. For venetian galleon 16th century Pre Theodoro gives keel length to breadth ratio as about 2.6:1. This would be higher if you use length between perpendiculars. For an english galleon of 16th century length to breadth about 3:1. BUt thise is not likely for a 15th century nao. I imagine spanish would be similar to venetian in most regards.

As far as 15th century practice, have a guess but I would say 3:1 is a tad high and would tend to go for the ratio of 2.5:1 (I base this on the figures given for venetian naves in F C Lanes Venetian Shipbuilders of the Renaissance. There were no set rules and shibbuilders varied.

Dick

Edited April 13, 2023 by woodrat

[Ferrus Manus]

That response gives a great deal of insight into my build. As for the l/b, i would say it would have to be length between perpendiculars, that is, including the stempost and sternpost. If the l/b in relation to the keel only were 2/1, then the total l/b would be about 3/1. Let's assume the lbp/b is 2/1. This would give us a total l/b of approaching 2.5/1. 

 

With Woodrat's assistance, i am weaning myself off the Mataro Model when it comes to exact measurements. 

[Louie da fly]

From the wreck of the Geonoan carrack La Lomellina (sunk 1513, probably built 1503), the estimated proportions were Length of keel 33.38 metres, width at master frame 14 metres, overall length 46.45 metres. IIRC they recovered the whole length of the keel and over half of the ship amidships, (she sank on her side, like the Mary Rose) so these estimates should be pretty reliable.

 

That gives the ratios

length of keel to width = 2.38

overall length to width = 3.32

 

You could also check out the Newport ship, though much less of the upper hull has been preserved because she sank upright, so you may not be able to determine the full width of the ship.

 

Steven

 

[Roger Pellett]

Chisels:  I have a set of Stanley “yellow handle” chisels that were new (to my father) in the 1950’s.  They seem to hold an edge well.  I also have a 1/8in and a 1/16in chisel bought new from a specialty woodworking tool distributor.  The most often used tool of the group is the 3/8in chisel from the Stanley set.  I find the larger blade to be easier to control than the smaller sized tools.

 

One “tool” that does not appear on your list is an effective sharpening system for your chisels and plane.

 

What material do you plan to use for building your model?  If you will need to reduce lumberyard or other bulk lumber into special sized strips then you will need access to a table saw or bandsaw.

 

Roger

[Ferrus Manus]

The larger carracks might have been slimmer than smaller ones like the Mataro ship. Also, different eras and places would certainly produce different designs. The Lomellina Nave was built over 50 years after the Mataro carrack, and was likely almost twice the length. What type of wood would be ideal for working on the frames and central assembly? Remember, these structures will be relatively bulky due to their large scale and increased thickness. 

[woodrat]

On 4/14/2023 at 3:15 AM, Ferrus Manus said:

Let's assume the lbp/b is 2/1. This would give us a total l/b of approaching 2.5/1. 

I would suggest only using length of keel/breadth of midship frame and forget I ever mentioned length between perpendiculars. I still suggest 2.5 as a starting point.

 

If you are planning POB at large scale, you are going to need at least a jigsaw or a fretsaw and elbow grease and I would suggest good quality plywood. Dont rush in. I spent years collecting and making tools before I cut the first wood for my first scratch build the USF Essex. Use the collective hive mind of the MSW tribe to its full extent.

Dick

[Ferrus Manus]

So the total l/b would be about 3/1?

[Ferrus Manus]

It seems as though 2.5 would be more appropriate as a total l/b. None of the proto-carracks i have seen in Steven's collection had a l/b slimmer than about 3, and most of them were about 2.5, or thereabouts. The Venetian carracks, particularly the larger ones, may have been slimmer. 

[woodrat]

13 hours ago, Ferrus Manus said:

So the total l/b would be about 3/1?

I dont know what total l/b means! Please use length of keel/breadth of midship frame. It is explicitly documented that fifteenth century carracks or cocha were around 2.5. This I would regard as a logical starting point.

Dick

[Ferrus Manus]

Total length to total beam. Can we start there? Would a total length/total beam ratio of about 2.5 be appropriate? The keel is about 1/2 to 2/3 the entire length of the ship, depending. 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Ferrus Manus

[woodrat]

3 hours ago, Ferrus Manus said:

Would a total length/total beam ratio of about 2.5 be appropriate?

If you like but this would give a length of keel /breadth of midship frame of about three. You decide.

Dick

[Ferrus Manus]

Now that i've thouroughly pissed off Woodrat, we can continue.

[Ferrus Manus]

I will do more research on the measurements discussed by woodrat, as i only know the layman's terms. 

[woodrat]

3 hours ago, Ferrus Manus said:

Now that i've thouroughly pissed off Woodrat, we can continue.

Woodrats are slow to anger.

 

Here are the effects on the hull shape by varying the l/b/ratio. This may help you decide.

L/B = 2.1

L/b =2.5

l/b = 3

Cheers

Dick

 

[Ferrus Manus]

Remember, you are teaching complex shipbuilding terms to an uneducated simpleton, who knows naught but the most basic of shipwrightery skills. 

[Ferrus Manus]

Wait, woodrats are an actual species?? I just thought it was an expression. Ya know, how you build with wood and dont mind getting your hands dirty. 

[Louie da fly]

Damn - I thought it was to do with your surname!

 

Steven

[Ferrus Manus]

Like how Frankie Day has the name "Deckape" on MSW. Sort of like that. 

[Ferrus Manus]

Yeah, wood rats are a real species of rat. The more ya know. They actually live mostly on the west coast of the United States, so i should know this. 

[Ferrus Manus]

When i talk about l/b, i am talking about total length, i.e. total length of the entire hull, in relation to the total width of the entire hull (width of the master frame).