Entry Port Grates

[Dlowder]

I hope this is a good place to ask this. I'm looking for more information on the grates on the deck at the entry ports for my HMS Victory cross section. I have one book with two drawings. One is the deck from above and the other is a cross section through the middle of the grate.

I assume that these are here to drain any water coming it but I'm curious as to how the water drains out. Is there a scupper leading through the waterway or does it run out fore and/or aft in some way that's not shown in the drawings? If there is a scupper, it seems like it would be dumping water on the steps and make footing more challenging.

On Victory today this appears to be covered with a ramp on the deck to prevent tripping. The view of the outside planking is also blocked in every photo that I've seen so I can't tell if there is a scupper.

And maybe I'm being too picky in worrying about this.

Thanks!

David

 

[allanyed]

15 hours ago, Dlowder said:

maybe I'm being too picky in worrying about this.

Heck no David.  This is an interesting little detail.  I hope someone has a proper answer but based on the cross section it looks like a raised piece of grating so looks almost like a wooden welcome matt. 😀

 

This also brought up another question for me.  On multi deck ships, were there the same number of scuppers on the lower decks as the weather decks?  I did some digging and found specs as to the number of scuttles for the gun deck, middle deck and upper deck in the 1719-1750 Establishments which was 4, 6, and 6 for 90-100 gun ships.

 

The Ship Builder's Repository 1788 and Steel's The Elements and Practice of Naval  Architecture which were closer to the time of Victory are quite different.   For the gundeck, only 2 per side (all of them in the manger), middle deck had  six per side,  and eight per side on the upper deck.  Hope this is a little help.

 

Allan

[Beef Wellington]

I think 'raised wooden welcome mat' is probably the best answer, it is a nice detail.  I wonder if its practical application would be to reduce tripping hazzard when entering/exiting as it is at the same level as the floor of the entryport and step.  I just can't think of a sensible drainage explanation.

[dafi]

Anyway this is an 20 century addition 🙂

 

I love the expression "raised wooden welcome mat"! That made my day 🙂 🙂 🙂

 

- I know of no scuppers for the door, not today or even less in contemporary sources

- There is a big scupper passing though the middle of the outside steps on todays Victory, but I always related this to the chain pumps. Stupid place to have it placed imho ...

 

As for Allans question regarding the scuppers: the only contemporary source that I know for placement of scuppers on a first rate is the model LR0512 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66473.html

XXXDAn

XXXDAn

 

See more info about the entry door here:

 

[Dlowder]

Thanks for all of the replies. I'm no expert but I still think that, even if it wasn't designed for that purpose, it served to help drain any water coming in the entry port if it was open in foul weather. Several aspects of the entry points suggest to me that water infiltration was a concern.  

Goodwin's “The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War 1650-1850” has an illustration on page 193 showing an example from 1670 with the entry port having a grated platform on the outside. I see no other reason for that one to be grated than to allow drainage for better footing. Also entry ports have canopies that must be there to prevent rain coming in but in a good blow rain would still get in and need to go somewhere. I think that anyone coming in wet from the rain will be shedding water once they are on that “welcome mat” and the water will need to go somewhere.

Regardless of all that, it's bound to be too small a detail to represent in 1/98 scale on my model. 

Thanks again,

David

[Morgan]

David,

 

I’m afraid you are looking at a theorised entry port from Victory’s 1920’s reconstruction as per Dafi’s reference.

 

Victory did not have an entry port between 1787 and at least 1816, this was an additional Gunport. This is demonstrated by contemporary plans and paintings.

 

I’m afraid the 1920’s reconstruction got many things wrong which have perpetuated.

My understanding is where entry ports were in place the doorway was blocked off at sea by 2 part hinged ports, the upper part lifting up like a gunport lid, and the lower part falling outward to form a landing platform. The grating is just an internal step, it allows water that visitors drag in to drain into the waterway  and avoid them stepping in the inevitable localised puddle that will form.

 

Gary

[Dlowder]

Thanks Dafi, I missed seeing the link in your post to the earlier thread. Just now read it.

David

[Dlowder]

Thanks Greg.

That's my original question… does anyone know how the water was drained? Would it be visible on my model or would it be hidden behind the grate? I'm going to assume that any drain point would be out of sight.

I'm not trying to model an exact replica of Victory at any point in her career, I'm just trying to learn more about maritime technology of the period and replicate it in 3D. A generic ship of the line if you will. 
 

Sort of like the AISC Steel Sculpture for those engineers out there.

https://www.aisc.org/education/university-programs/steel-sculptures/#9795

[dafi]

Do not see this door as a big point of water entry 🙂

 

I do not believe that a scupper for the door was needed. There was more water coming in from the waist - waves, rain and cleaning - and it ran along the waterway to the next scupper. As ships were not stable a scupper straight underneath the entry port would not have helped too much as the water would follow the way of gravity, following the angle of the masts and the motion of the waves. So just offer it a multitude of exhausts, one will be on the right place. And next moment this will be another one 😉

 

Just see the green circles in the picture above.

 

XXXDAn

[Marcus.K.]

Gentlemen, 

 

no matter WHEN that "welcome matt" may have been added: I believe, you see it litterally from the wrong side 😁.

 

Imagine the Admiral wants to leave and that spot in front of that opening is wet due to the opening.. wet and slippery! Imagine he would slip and falls down? "Man over Board!" 's the call!! 

So better to have the chance for wind and air to dry this spot where he places his foot onto (that grating) while water may be on the deck in front of the waterway... He would not slip on that ... his shoes would step on something more dry with more grib..

 

Its not an entry port grate, it is an EXIT port grate.🤣

Edited May 8, 2023 by Marcus.K.