USS Constitution by Der Alte Rentner - Model Shipways - 1/76

[Der Alte Rentner]

Well, well, well!  Thanks for chiming in with that interesting nugget of information, Mustafa.  That settles it for me then - and makes my life easier.  Now I don't have to form that dado at the end of most of the battens for the other two tops. 

 

Nevertheless, given that I just washed my truck yesterday - of course this prompted the snow storm overnight, and being reluctant to get salt back on it with the drive to the shipyard today, I'll take another day or two to ponder why there's only one guard rail on each of the tops.  

 

And, to answer Gregg 's question, you might be better off asking Geoff Matson about the quality of the rigging portion of the Hunt practicum.  From what I gather, the rigging portion of the practicum is text heavy and picture light. The very last chapter is all text - no pictures, and there's not a single photo of the Constitution with the rigging anywhere in the practicum. I've been counting on Geoff to deliver the goods on this front.

 

Finally, how on earth did I fail to consult Xken's build log for this?

 

 

(P.S. this is something that may probably only resonate with Geoff. I'm mourning the loss of my beloved Riverside Bake Shop in McHenry, IL.  I had what may have been my very last chocolate iced cake donut Sunday morning. The bakery burnt down Sunday afternoon. I'm absolutely devastated.)

 

Edited Thursday at 01:31 PM by Der Alte Rentner

[Der Alte Rentner]

Because a new page was generated here at MSW, I'm supplying these photos on the new page to have them handy for discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the photo from XKen's build that Mustafa so kindly provided on the last page. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is one of Mustafa's tops.  Remember that he said he would be installing the top rails later in the build, explaining why the foundations for them are missing here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This one is from the Hunt Practicum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And this is where I left off yesterday.  (Note the bottom cross piece is not installed, only resting on the battens)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And to complete(?) the picture, and at the same time - muddy the waters..  Here's a photo cribbed from one of Jon's posts.  Note that the battens do not  extend all the way to the rim on present day(?) Conny.

 

If they did, I suspect there would be filler in the gaps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One  more reference:  Marquardt - lending credence to Mustafa's and XKen's choice for the battens. 

 

Note:  This is one confusing drawing.  If this is the top view of the fighting top, then the direction of the planking is opposite what appears on the present-day Constitution.

 

Also, this would suggest that the battens do not extend to the rim at the aft end.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Things I'm wondering about..

 

I got the placement for my battens from the plans that came with the Model Shipway's kit. Bob Hunt obviously referenced the same plans.  However, Mustafa and Xken have a different numbers and orientations for theirs.  The assumption is that they, as often happens at MSW, are referencing different plans from different eras.  I can live with that. 

 

I noticed that my cross trees, the dimensions for which I thought I got from the Hunt practicum, are not as thick (or tall?) as the others.  My only concern here, is for the cleats on the cross trees above.   To any of you who have already rigged the Constitution, are these cleats necessary for standing rigging?  I don't plan to deploy running rigging, so if these are not necessary, I may just omit them.  Otherwise, I'll likely be adding material to these two cross trees.   

 

Lastly, I'm wondering which is the case:

a) There is filler between the battens underneath the stern-most cross tree (foundation for the top rail).

On the photos from the present day Constitution, this seems to be the case.  (By the way, I did put filler between the six battens on the port and starboard sides, because the outboard ends are clearly visible.  I didn't think about leaving gaps there until today).

b) There are gaps between the planking and the cross tree.

c) The battens butt against the edge of the cross tree.  

 

My guess is option b.  If it were option a, then no one would have bothered to have the battens extend to the very edge of the top itself, because the same end could be accomplished by option c.    As such, when I do return to the shipyard, I'll trim the thickness of my cross tree and glue it on top of the battens.  Though, it would be easier  to lop the ends off the battens - not so much for the main top, but so that making the mizzen and fore tops would be easier.  The effort to make the dados could be eliminated.

 

So much for the donut deprived slacker this Thursday.  

 

Edited Thursday at 09:47 PM by Der Alte Rentner
typos, what else?

[GGibson]

5 hours ago, Der Alte Rentner said:

And, to answer Gregg 's question, you might be better off asking Geoff Matson about the quality of the rigging portion of the Hunt practicum.  From what I gather, the rigging portion of the practicum is text heavy and picture light. The very last chapter is all text - no pictures, and there's not a single photo of the Constitution with the rigging anywhere in the practicum. I've been counting on Geoff to deliver the goods on this front.

 

Thanks for that recommendation, Peter!  I have Geoff's build log already saved as a favorite as I do for all of your other build logs, so I'll take a peek when I get closer to that point.  I know I am asking WAY ahead of when I'll be to that point but... in this hobby, with this ship, I am the inquisitive type.  Thanks!

 

5 hours ago, Der Alte Rentner said:

Finally, how on earth did I fail to consult Xken's build log for this?

 

I know, right?!?  Ken did a super job on his ship all around, and for anything involving brass, he is the king of all brass kings! He did some remarkable brass work on his own Constitution.  Amazing work!

[Der Alte Rentner]

1 hour ago, GGibson said:

I have Geoff's build log already saved as a favorite as I do for all of your other build logs, so I'll take a peek when I get closer to that point.  

That's what I've been telling myself for about 2 years.  Unfortunately, Geoff has been off the radar for quite a while.  I'll be checking everyone's build logs - no more missing Ken's, but starting with our current front runner, Mustafa!  😁

[mtbediz]

10 hours ago, Der Alte Rentner said:

I noticed that my cross trees, the dimensions for which I thought I got from the Hunt practicum, are not as thick (or tall?) as the others.  My only concern here, is for the cleats on the cross trees above.   To any of you who have already rigged the Constitution, are these cleats necessary for standing rigging?  I don't plan to deploy running rigging, so if these are not necessary, I may just omit them.  Otherwise, I'll likely be adding material to these two cross trees.   

Xken's ship is one of the rare Connys with complete rigging. Ken has attached some ropes to these cleats. I haven't yet discovered where these ropes came from, but their colors suggest they're part of running rigging.

[mtbediz]

I figured out which ropes are attached to two of these cleats. If you're adding yards to the masts, the truss pendant tackle ropes for those are attached to these cleats.

[GGibson]

1 hour ago, mtbediz said:

Xken's ship is one of the rare Connys with complete rigging. Ken has attached some ropes to these cleats. I haven't yet discovered where these ropes came from, but their colors suggest they're part of running rigging.

 

This is WAY above my understanding of where you guys are with this rigging, but it's got me intrigued... and I love what Ken did in his explanations throughout his build... so I went searching, as well.

 

Take a peek at his Post #672 dated July 7, 2017.  There's another picture at a wider angle and explanation of him tying off running rigging to these cleats (I think!).  I'll let you guys figure out if that helps in your current discussion.  I'm loving your work, though, gentlemen! 

Edited yesterday at 05:04 AM by GGibson

[Der Alte Rentner]

12 hours ago, mtbediz said:

I figured out which ropes are attached to two of these cleats. If you're adding yards to the masts, the truss pendant tackle ropes for those are attached to these cleats.

I pored over XKen’s build log (per Gregg’s suggestion above), and saw the details on rigging the truss pendant.  In those details, Ken notes that adding the trusses to an already secured yard was difficult, begging the question, what exactly is a truss pendant?  My guess, based on Ken’s comments and the color of the line, is that this is running rigging, used to adjust the yard somehow. It is unclear to me in the plan snippet above what happens to the truss pendant where it disappears behind the triple block at the jeers.   

 

Thank the Lord for Ken’s documentation.  The details on the plans are the pits!

 

I went one step further.  I checked Bob Hunt’s Rigging Practicum and found this in Chapter 6, beginning on page 5 (the Chapter on “ Running Rigging”).  Evidently, Ken’s detailed explanation is an attempt to decipher Hunt’s instructions regarding the trusses.

 

Here are Bob Hunt’s instructions:

"The last part of rigging used to attach the yardarm to the mast is the truss.
First seize a 1/8” single block to a piece of .021” tan line (all three masts). Another .021” tan line (all three masts) is seized to the block as a lanyard and will be carried upward to a 1/8” double block (all three masts) that is seized to an eyebolt on the aft underside of the mast cap. Use a figure eight type seizing to seize the 1/8” double block to the eyebolt first and then attach the eyebolt to the underside of the mast cap by drilling a small hole with your pin vise. The block is located on the aft underside, one on the port and one on the starboard side.
The truss line with the 1/8” block in it comes down through the mast top on the starboard side of the trestle tree and wraps around the yard. This is where it gets a bit complicated.

After it wraps around the yardarm, front to back, it has an eyelet seized in the end.
On the port side, another truss with a 1/8” single block (all three masts) and lanyard comes down through the port side of the mast top and it wraps around the yard arm (on the port side), front to back. It passes through the starboard side truss eyelet and then doubles back to form an eyelet of its own around itself. Confused? Look at the drawing labeled Truss Lead on sheet 8 of your plans.

To simplify things, you can first bring the starboard truss end down and around the yardarm and then around the back side of the mast where it will lead forward and under the yardarm on the port side, wrap around the yardarm once and the go up through the mast top on the port side by the trestle tree and end with another 1/8” single block and lanyard. If you make this line off of the ship and keep the distance between the first 1/8” block and the second 1/8” block at the other end at about 2” to 3”, it should fit just about right.

If you look at the drawing labeled Lower Truss, Sling & Jeer Details, you’ll see that the truss’ actually pass along a sheave on the trestle trees that’s held in place by a block of wood. You can simulate this by cutting a small piece of .060” styrene that is 1/8” long and 3/32” wide. Round the aft corners of the styrene as you see in the drawing and use super glue to attach to the sides of the trestle trees with the truss line passing on the aft side of the part.

The lanyard to the truss rigging is belayed to a cleat that is installed on the cross tree. The cleat is on the fore side of the lower cross tree. You can see this cleat in the drawing labeled Top Construction on sheet 6 of your plans. Actually I missed this cleat when I constructed the masts in chapter 1 and apologize for that. It may be a bit difficult to drill a hole for the cleat at this stage, but you can clip off the pin on the bottom of the cleat and use super glue to glue it to the fore side of the crosstree. Hold it with tweezers, put a drop of super glue on it and press it against the side of the crosstree holding it there for a few seconds to give the glue time to set. Allow the super glue to dry for 10 or 15 minutes before you try to belay the truss lanyard.

You’ll also see that on the mast cap, the sling sits in a grooved piece of wood to help hold it in place. This can be simulated by gluing two strips of .030” square styrene on each side of the rope and making the styrene strips the same length as the mast cap is wide."

 

 

I suppose I could get side tracked with the further research on this now, just in case I change my mind and include running rigging, or I could postpone the agony and just add the cleats.

 

 

 

Thanks Mustafa, Gregg, Ken, and (even) Bob Hunt . 

Edited 18 hours ago by Der Alte Rentner

[Der Alte Rentner]

And to conclude the research/discussion on the fighting tops from post 1052 earlier on this page..

 

Thanks to XKen's build log, the answer to the question is "b", there are gaps between the battens beneath the guard rail base!

 

Why?  I have no idea.  

 

It actually seems pointless, especially if the ends are covered. 

 

..  as they appear to be with the trim piece Ken added around the perimeter

in this photo.  

 

Let's call it artistic license?

Edited 13 hours ago by Der Alte Rentner
Reformatted text for phone viewing. Why do these differ from desktop views?

[JSGerson]

Based on all of your research and time you spent figuring all this out😵‍💫, I will accept you as my guiding authority and most likely will fabricate my fighting tops to look like yours. Well done!!!

 

Jon

[GGibson]

47 minutes ago, JSGerson said:

Based on all of your research and time you spent figuring all this out...

 

All I can say, Peter, after reading all this, is... WHEW! 🏆🏆

[Der Alte Rentner]

Thank you gentlemen, but I'm still not done. 🙄

 

The plans call for 1/32 inch square framework for the top guard rail. Even Ken doubled this to squeeze the netting in between.  If I do this, I'm certainly not going to use the crappy Basswood that came with the kit. That is a disaster in the making.

 

I can't remember exactly where I just got this photo, but the site purports to this being the post 1970ish refurbishment.

 

Note the gaps between the guard rail and the fighting top. We're looking at the ends of the battens in the gap.

 

 

But these views seem to contradict that, no?

 

 

 

I have another couple of pictures to share. I did in fact install cleats. These were problematic because the ones I got from the Syren model ship company were too fat. So I trimmed them in super glued them into place.

 

 

 

You know, as the guy who was always resisted this quest for super accurate rendering, I'm asking myself, Self, who are you, and what have you done with Peter? 😆

 

Jon, before I ash-can the rails altogether, I recall that you recommended netting of some kind for the head area to someone else. Do you recall that? If so what did you recommend? 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Der Alte Rentner

[GGibson]

10 minutes ago, Der Alte Rentner said:

You know, as the guy who was always resisted this quest for super accurate rendering, I'm asking myself, Self, who are you, and what have you done with Peter? 😆

 

It's obvious to me that a few of the guys in this Constitution build log group have rubbed off on you (in a good way!).

[JSGerson]

I don't know where you got that picture of the guard rail ether, so I added it to my collection. It doesn't look so much as a restoration, but more of a museum display. I did find a pre-restoration image of the guard rail which I believe does somewhat confirm the gaps between the guard rail and the fighting top.

 

As for the cleats, you may remember I had a method of making very small metal cleats which I documented (post #720) in my log back in June 2023 when I added cleats to the bow bulwarks next to the seats of ease. All I needed were some flat head nails,  a Dremel rotary tool, hand files, and a disc sander. The resulting cleats were strong and embedded into the wood for easy gluing. You might want to consider this method at some point.

 

Jon