French FULMINANT rear castle

[HAIIAPHNK]

Unexpectedly, I agreed to participate in a project.
I never thought I would take on something like this. And I didn't agree for a long time. But there are people who are very good at advertising and persuasion. And I don't mean some Sony, Coca-Cola other brand. They've never dreamed of something like this. I wouldn't believe it myself if someone told me that this project took me seven years to complete. And so I gave in and agreed. 
And that's what this project is. This is the model.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's big, though! And interesting. The size alone is worth it. I will never be able to afford to build one for myself (if I decide to build a full model at all). So the opportunity to feel and work on such a king-size was one of the reasons why I decided to take it. I will mention the rest as the story develops.

Let me say at once: I have nothing to do with the model itself. It was built by other people. As far as I know, they are not one, and not two. But I won't mention the masters. For several reasons. Firstly, I do not know if the masters themselves wish to be mentioned? I didn't see any mention of this model on the forums, maybe it was for a reason (though maybe I just missed it and didn't notice it). Secondly, I'm not that much of a stickler for inquiries, I could be wrong. Write something wrong or not mention someone at all. Therefore, I will omit the paths the model took before me. If suddenly the participants of the project want, they will write themselves.

As you can see from the photos, a lot of work has been done. In addition to the hull itself, there is a battalion of individual items. But at the same time and before the completion of still work and work. My participation in this project is strictly related to carving. In particular while in plans aft decor. And then it will be seen.

[HAIIAPHNK]

A few words about the ship itself. Very little is known about it. Not really. Almost nothing is known about it. Attempts to google the name FULMINANT led to a bunch of medical articles with terrible photos. Only after I put "Ship" in front of the name could I look at what I found without sedative drops, but even then it was impossible to call it a successful search. Google led to several photos of a battleship of the 19th century. There is nothing sailing at all.
This is the only image:

 

 

A few words about the ship itself. Very little is known about it. Not really. Almost nothing is known about it. Attempts to google the name FULMINANT led to a bunch of medical articles with terrible photos. Only after I put "Ship" in front of the name could I look at what I found without sedative drops, but even then it was impossible to call it a successful search. Google led to several photos of a battleship of the 19th century. There is nothing sailing at all.
This is the only image:

One single sketch. The customer found it. I couldn't even search the picture to find anything.
So in the descriptive part of the ship and its history, I can only quote what I heard from the customer. Kind of like the FULMI was a twin to the widely known L'AMBITIEUX.
И... и... and that's it, that's the whole story.

The model itself is L'AMBITIEUX. It was built from this monograph, from the same drawings. If I understand correctly, it was kind of like the L'AMBITIEUX up to a certain point, in the sense that it was the one being built. But suddenly this very same sketch was found and there was a fateful reversal. AMBI was aborted in utero and FULMI was put in his place. Tough analogy... Yes, I know, I'm a scary person. Nothing sacred! I know. I'm scary.

It's one thing to build a beautiful but worn-out AMBI, how many of them are there in the world? And it's quite another thing to be the first to build something that no one has ever built before! It's a completely different sound. There we go.

And now it's my job to make the decor so that no one will ever guess who's under the makeup.

 

 

And since there is no more precise data, it means that this work is as creative as possible. Think for yourself, think for yourself, cards in hand, wind beneath your wings, power beneath your tail... Oh, no, that's not quite the same meaning. But in essence it's true, because the flight of fancy is not only good, but also bad. In the sense that it is necessary not only to think up how these curls will look like, but also to be not ashamed of the design. And there is no way to do it without it. And although the customer separately, in capital letters, with underlines, flashing garlands and other things said that he would not be picky about correctness and accuracy, it is still important to me that there were no serious lapses. Actually, this was one of the reasons for the appearance of this topic on the forum. I already have a pile of questions that I would like to discuss before it appears in the material. Such things.

 

[HAIIAPHNK]

And right off the bat, I'm going to ask the first question. It's creative. It's true!
And then in the voice of some TV quiz show host:
We see the stern. What do you think would crown the bow of the ship? What or whom would you put there? 

 

 

Unfortunately, I can't give more information for thinking, everything that can be used in any way has already been said and shown. Further, Mr. Masters, you have a conditional minute, after which you must give an answer.

 

Actually, I have my own version. I can substantiate it and prove it. But the question is still important. We happen to have a difference of opinion. So I'd like to hear some other people's versions. And for the sake of keeping them unbiased, I'll give you my opinion later. And at the same time I will check myself, compare my thoughts with others. There don't seem to be any conditions, you can just say what you would put there yourself, but it's better if it's accompanied by a short "because".

 

And here's another thing: the stage of working with the main figure is still very far away and you can express versions even when the narrative runs away. So if you happen to read this when the conversation has already moved on to other topics, feel free to offer your ideas at any point. This social poll is very important to me. The more people who offer their side of the story, the better.
 

 

 

[druxey]

Very entertaining, Haiiaphnk! Presumably a crowned lion figure?

[HAIIAPHNK]

42 minutes ago, druxey said:

Presumably a crowned lion figure?

 

Thanks for the first version. The score is open, 1 vote for the lion.
If someone else also has an opinion that someone else has already voiced, you can and should still post it. And in time we'll see which versions will be more popular.

 

 

42 minutes ago, druxey said:

Very entertaining, Haiiaphnk!

P.S. I perfectly understand that for many people my nickname is seen as if I fell face down on the keyboard and managed to sleep a little in that position. But actually there is a sense in these strange set of letters. Those who are familiar with the Russian language will easily read everything. And for the rest of you, I will explain, this nickname means Partner, someone who helps you in your work. In Russian it is spelled like this: "Напарник". So in order not to torture yourself with typing, you can write: Partner. It'll be easier. Or by the name Alexander.

 

 

Thank you for participating in this survey.

Edited August 18, 2023 by HAIIAPHNK

[PierreS]

Hello Alexandre,

 

A crowned lion for me too. (in any case, not the bust of Schwarzenegger.....)

[HAIIAPHNK]

Okay. I'll write it down: There's a leader in the race! The lion now has two whole votes.
And Schwarzenegger is down one. It's getting harder and harder for this character to win. 😄
 

[HAIIAPHNK]

I suddenly have a question. Am I in the right section for this topic. Maybe it should have been placed in another place of the forum, for example, where they describe the construction of ships? There will definitely be not just one element, but the whole stern. What should I have done?

[PierreS]

Contact an admin. 😉

[HAIIAPHNK]

and how do you do that? 

[PierreS]

You click on the name of an admin and you will see a "message" box.

[HAIIAPHNK]

Thanks

[HAIIAPHNK]

The discussion stalled. Therefore, I will allow myself to respond to the versions that have already accumulated. And we have two votes for the figure of the lion as the main symbol of the ship on the breakwater.
Alas, this is a mistake. A lion cannot stand on this ship. Let me explain why.
First of all, strangely enough, French ships had far fewer lions than the fleets of other countries. I emphasize: it does not mean that there were no lions at all, but fewer. 
This information was very surprising to me. At the moment, in parallel with this project, I am busy with the idea of making a collection of lion figures from different countries. So, the search for French lions turned out to be not so easy. If there are those who are interested in this lion theme, you can see how this project is progressing here:

I post almost all of my carving work there, including now the lion theme.

But I've gotten sidetracked. Back again. I stopped to mention the first reason why the lion couldn't appear on the Fulminant breakwater.
There is another reason as well. 
The ship in question was among the ships of the first rank. It is a large, and powerful ship. Under certain circumstances, it could take the place of a flagship in a squadron of smaller ships. Which means it would have to be suitably ornate. By the end of the 17th century, the craving for luxurious decoration of ships reached its peak. Ships flaunted an abundance of sculptures and bas-reliefs in front of each other. Even if all this significantly reduced the seaworthiness of the ship. It still had to take time for kings to realize that first of all the real greatness and glory of a warship is its victories, not its decor. That moment had not yet come. The Fulminant (like other big ships) was born with the idea of showing its own specialty. What do lions have to do with it? The point is that you can't surprise anyone with lions anymore. Even private yachts have lions on the breakwaters. And if you put such a one, it is rather a reason for ridicule from the neighbors. 
Therefore, if you pay attention, you will notice that lions on the breakwaters, if they continue to appear, it happens on frigates or other ordinary "workers". Elite ships should have something unique. Special! So the lion versions fall away.

[HAIIAPHNK]

I suggest continuing the game for imagination and fantasy. This time I will give some hints.

1. A ship gets a name when it is built. This name is its battle cry. It is its calling card. Something he himself is proud of. Try to think about what kind of symbol, what kind of figure a ship called Fulminant might have. What exactly is it that this ship is proud of?

P.S. I will support the main idea of this post with a little story. There is one writer in Russian literature. His name was Andrei Nekrasov. He wrote many different books, and many of his stories were children's stories. One of these children's books was called "The Adventures of Captain Vrungel". It is a cheerful adventure of an elderly and experienced captain, who together with a young named Lom took part in a round-the-world racing regatta on a yacht. In the course of the story, the characters of the book got into different funny situations, from which they got out with the help of wit and unconventional thinking. I will not go into a retelling. I mentioned this book for one reason. The yacht on which the main characters sailed was called "VICTORY". In Russian this word is spelled like this: "ПОБЕДА". However, by coincidence, during the launching, the first two letters "ПО" in the name broke off. And now there was the inscription "БЕДА". Which means "TROUBLE". It was a game of words, a game of concepts. So the yacht, which was supposed to declare itself as a winner, on the contrary said the exact opposite. And like a prophecy, it was plagued by various troubles and adventures. Which, however, ended well, because this is a funny children's book. 

 

Such a lyrical digression. When I was a child, I loved the cartoon, which was based on this book. What else does a boy need? Adventures, chases from gangsters and behind them, spies, storms and a good friendly team that will find a way out of any situation.

 

So I suggest we ponder how the name Fulminant might give a clue to what might be on the breakwater of this ship.

[HAIIAPHNK]

There is also another clue that can give versions in the search.

 

 If the decoration of the ship should be logically connected with the name, it is not only the main figure on the breakwater. Right? The decoration of the stern of the ship should also have the same logic. And since for this ship the sketch of the stern decoration is the only thing that can be found, the first place to look is there. What is drawn on this drawing? Can this document give us a clue? 
What exactly do you think is encrypted there? Who or what did the chief artist of this ship want to say by decorating the stern lock in this way?

 

[mtaylor]

21 minutes ago, HAIIAPHNK said:

If there are those who are interested in this lion theme, you can see how this project is progressing here:

If there are those who are interested in this lion theme, you can see how this project is progressing here:

 

Is the link missing or am I missing something?   

[Hubac's Historian]

Zeus - the lightning God.

[Hubac's Historian]

I do not see the carving link either.

[HAIIAPHNK]

38 minutes ago, mtaylor said:

Is the link missing or am I missing something?   

 

24 minutes ago, Hubac's Historian said:

I do not see the carving link either.

 

Yes indeed. Forgot the link. I'm sorry and thank you for noticing this.
Here:
https://modelshipworld.com/topic/5412-carving-from-belgorod/page/10/

[HAIIAPHNK]

29 minutes ago, Hubac's Historian said:

Zeus - the lightning God.

 

Good version. I write down: one vote for Zeus. 👍
Does anyone else have other versions?

[HAIIAPHNK]

Indeed, the Zeus version sounds very strong. All the available hints tie together.
The name Fulminant reminds us of this character in the first place. 
And the details on the stern of the ship make this version even more probable.
The coat of arms with royal lilies is the center of the composition. He soars in the clouds and throws lightning.

 

 

The same lightning can be seen below, there are bundles of fire and lightning, which again allude to Zeus. 

 

 

Also below you can see eagles. And this is again a reference, because the eagle was a companion of Zeus. So everything really points to this ancient celestial.

 

 

[Hubac's Historian]

So, is it your task to essentially design the quarter ornamentation, the upper bulwark frieze, and the head ornamentation to harmonize with the stern drawing?

[HAIIAPHNK]

10 minutes ago, Hubac's Historian said:

So, is it your task to essentially design the quarter ornamentation, the upper bulwark frieze, and the head ornamentation to harmonize with the stern drawing?

 

Yes, exactly. 
But it's not that simple. 
There's another mystery here.

[Hubac's Historian]

There would be nothing simple about that at all, really.  You have the ornamental sets for L’Ambiteaux to use as a general style-guide, but the monograph for that ship ignores the upper bulwarks completely, and the bow and quarters for your project still need to make specific reference to the underlying allegory.  I’ll be happy to follow along, though.  If I happen to have any imagery that is helpful, I will be sure to post it, here.

[Hubac's Historian]

Although, one idea that occurs to me straight away concerns the lower finishing of the quarter gallery.

 

L’Ambiteaux employs these twist-tail dolphins for the lower finishing:

 

It seems to me that a stylized eagle with it’s outstretched wing, extending into the stern counter, could also carry a clutch of lightning bolts in its clenched talons, below.  

[HAIIAPHNK]

29 minutes ago, Hubac's Historian said:

There would be nothing simple about that at all, really.  You have the ornamental sets for L’Ambiteaux to use as a general style-guide, but the monograph for that ship ignores the upper bulwarks completely, and the bow and quarters for your project still need to make specific reference to the underlying allegory.  I’ll be happy to follow along, though.  If I happen to have any imagery that is helpful, I will be sure to post it, here.

 

Yes, you're right. It's a challenge. When you want to do it right and not just do something like this.

 

then you have to look for sources, look at analogies and prove (at least to yourself) that this is logical and justified, and this is not.

Indeed, the closest example to search for is L'AMBITIEUX. But there are many nuances to be considered in this monograph as well.

And since we are talking about this twin ship, I will voice one more mystery:

There is a winged figure on the breakwater of the L'AMBITIEUX. Let's call it an Angel. And if we look at the whole ensemble of decorations of this ship we can notice that human figures are found in other places. There are also human characters on the stern. All in harmony.
But if we look at the Fulminant, the only thing that can be used as a graphic art document, we see one important difference! There are no human figures on the entire stern, not once and nowhere. Any "living" characters we can discern are eagles. And the lion heads on the balcony railing.
And the question arises: can there be a human figure on the breakwater if it is not supported by similar figures anywhere else? How logical and correct would it be? 

Has it been done this way?
And if there should be something else there, then what could it be? After all, any other figure immediately ruins the whole logical chain. How to show the main lightning wielder without showing him himself? Should we put an eagle? Or something ornamental, for example something like a shield with a coat of arms, like Marcel's. 
This is such an aesthetic and logical conundrum.

I'll mention the rest later, or I'll drown in questions.
Anybody have any thoughts?

 

[HAIIAPHNK]

48 minutes ago, Hubac's Historian said:

It seems to me that a stylized eagle with it’s outstretched wing, extending into the stern counter, could also carry a clutch of lightning bolts in its clenched talons, below.  

 

Thank you so much for participating. Fresh thoughts from the outside help a lot. And you have a beautiful thought. 
However, here it is important to remember the laws, according to which all the decor on the stern is built.
The higher it is, the more significant the place. Above the aft windows is the most important place where the central figure is placed.
Below and on the edges of it will be placed simpler figures. For example, these are the companions of the main figure or allegories that reveal the story encoded in the overall ensemble.
And the very bottom is filled with simple decorations. These are either patterns or some wildlife, which is quite insignificant. At times, defeated enemies or those who are prey were placed there. As in the case of L’Ambiteaux, the lowest creature there is a fish.
In the case of the Fulminant, the eagle is Zeus' companion, his companion. And to place it at the very bottom would be tantamount to an insult. 

If you pay attention to the sketch of Fulminant, it is already drawn in what style the artist thought. It's ornamental... I don't know how to spell the word to make it clear. Let it be something like a flower cachepot decorated with stylized vegetation. It is a complement to the upper corner elements. There's something like columns. 
I think these "cachepots" are the lower hemispheres of the side galleries. So at least there are no additional questions about that.
And there are enough of them with the side galleries. I will develop this theme a little later. 

[Hubac's Historian]

Your point about the hierarchy of ornament is well-taken and correct.  If there is a place for human forms, where they are otherwise absent, it would certainly be at the figurehead.

 

Frolich’s version of L’Ambiteaux carries a lion as it’s figurehead, while the builder below employs this human figure:

I’m not sure whom this figure from Greek mythology represents, exactly, but my guess would be Apollo, as that is the character most closely associated with Louis XIV.  He is carrying a victory laurel and Fame’s trumpet proclaiming his dominance and superiority to all comers.

 

I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with an effigy of Zeus as your figurehead, even if you don’t employ and other human figures, elsewhere in the decor.

[HAIIAPHNK]

I'm doing a lot of thinking and trying to draw what the main figure on Fulminant might look like. 
But there is no way I can go further than the figure of Zeus. I can't manage to replace his figure with other objects. 
You very correctly wrote that the ships built during this period had names that were meant to glorify Louis 14. He was a personality who was very fond of himself and was vain. So there must be something very high-minded and pompous on the Fulminant's breakwater. As much as I fantasize, I'm not very good at coming up with a replacement equal to Zeus.

The only thing I can think of is an eagle. He can be shown sitting on a cloud and have lightning bolts around him. You can make him guarding a shield with lilies. This is the only version that comes to my mind. But I don't see that it's the perfect version myself. It loses out to Zeus. The eagle is still only a secondary character, he can't be an equal substitute for Zeus. Yes, if I remember myths, Zeus himself took the form of birds, you can look for information whether he turned into an eagle. But even if I find exact confirmations of this version, still I cannot say that it can be better than Zeus himself. 
The eagle as a symbol is more suitable for Bonaparte, he had a predilection for these birds. But Louis? I don't know. I'm not sure. Yeah, it's a powerful and predatory bird. Yes, it has an ancient past, and the Romans used eagles as a symbol of their power. And Louis could compare himself to the emperors of the past, imply that he was their equal, all the rulers of the day did. Yes, the eagle can be connected logically with Zeus, because we can not go far from this image. But still, I do not believe that there could be an eagle there. Zeus is much better! Logically, that's who should be there. And just like on the Ambitious he should be a waist-high figure, and below that turn into an ornament. 

Ah, if I had the chance to see what was really there? Could the artist and author of this ship's decorations have found a better way than Zeus? And if Zeus is there, does that mean there could be just one human figure, which is not supported by such an image anywhere else? 
My eyes are already rippling with hundreds and thousands of drawings of different ships. I can't find strong enough evidence. And it's driving me crazy. I guess I'll settle on the Zeus. I can't think of anything better. I'm not fit to be Louis' court painter.

[HAIIAPHNK]

22 hours ago, Hubac's Historian said:

Frolich’s version of L’Ambiteaux carries a lion as it’s figurehead

 

As for the lion figure seen in the book, that's a separate issue. It is interesting to understand the reason for this decision.
In "The Ships of Trouville" it was said that the figure of the lion as the main decoration of the ship was a decision that looked one hundred percent correct. And there wasn't even any discussion or debate about it. It didn't even have any other competitors. You could say that the lion passed without any exams or interviews.
Which is already curious. So why did it happen this way?
After all, we now have documents that clearly show exactly what stood on the breakwater at L’Ambiteaux. And it wasn't a lion.

 

 

 

So the authors didn't have access to these sketches when the book was written? Because otherwise they would have just put the winged figure there.
What could be the reason?
When I read the book, it said in a separate thought that they wanted to dedicate the book to a number of ships created under Louis. And the authors wanted to create a certain general image of the entire 1st rank. However, this task was impossible, or practically impossible. Simply because it is a classic modern man's desire. We live in a world in which we ourselves have divided everything into standards, clear boundaries and regulations. It is natural for us to perceive the world in this way. We do not know any other way. Or we perceive the other as chaos.
And in the 17th century (and later too) everything was different. And there was no clear standard. Different ships of the same class or rank were only united by approximately the same amount of artillery. And that was arbitrary. 
The authors spent a lot of effort and time to find and study a whole library of data on different ships and came to the conclusion that they have undertaken an impossible task. 
In the end, they decided to combine the most common solutions somehow. That's how their L’Ambiteaux came to be. He was a model assembly.
Which can already be called a victory. As a result, we can look at a whole class based on one ship.
But at the same time, the decision that the authors made was also a disadvantage, because the L’Ambiteaux is not an exact copy of its historical original.
Now I will try to connect everything written with the question about the lion. Perhaps the avalanche of various questions and problems was so great that the authors were simply busy with much more significant decisions. And when they came to the question of decoration, they simply did not have enough diligence for this minor nuance. And if we also take into account that they did not find historical sketches, then everything falls into place. We are essentially in the same condition. We don't know what was actually done and are trying to use logical thinking to find an alternative solution. And it's even easier for us. In the case of Fulminant, everything is (I think) more obvious. One way or another everything revolves around lightning, force, power, etc. And with L’Ambiteaux, things are far from that obvious. Ambition can represent a lot of things. Including Mufasa fits under this symbol ;-)))).
Or maybe it was for a different reason? Maybe, since the whole Ambition was prefabricated, its decor was also made as a kind of generalization?
I don't know the exact answer. And I can only guess. In any case, I am very grateful to the authors of the book that I can now read about ships of that era. I can clearly see the comparisons. And even have ready drawings on which I can safely start building a model.
I am also very grateful to the craftsmen, who are not just "blindly" building on the basis of the drawings, but have also done their own research and made adjustments, which undoubtedly improved the ship. 
When I saw this beautiful winged sculpture for the first time, I had a dream to try to carve something similar one day. It came true and now I am pursuing it, and I very much hope to be able to make another figure as well, which is the closest relative to L’Ambiteaux.