Holy Ghost 1227 by Ferrus Manus - FINISHED - Revell - 1/50 - PLASTIC - English Nef

[Louie da fly]

6 hours ago, Ferrus Manus said:

either the artists/coin minters took considerable amounts of artistic license, or it was a running joke.

I'd say it depends - some of these ships were owned by very wealthy people, and others represented the Cinque Ports, tasked with the defense of the realm (and the prestige of their home port). Look at the ornateness of royal ships in the 17th and 18th centuries. So I think the general run of the mill nefs weren't all that ornate, but some would have been.

 

Regarding the battlements, just make sure you check the heights against the scale - how tall is a normal person in relation to the walls? If they only come up to his knees, they're not going to be much use in protecting him. If he can't see over them, not much use either.

Unfortunately, at this time artists didn't show people to scale against the ships they were in. The more important you were, the bigger you were shown. Even the Winchelsea seal shows them too big, though a lot closer to reality than some of the others.

 

Steven

Edited September 5, 2023 by Louie da fly

[Ferrus Manus]

I did what looked realistic and didn't mess up the proportions of the ship. The tall planks come up to a man's waist. These were also not warships, and VERY pre-osha, so waist-high battlements seem right. Now all i have to do is make and install the ladders. A few oars that came in the original kit will be sacrificed to make this happen. 

[Ferrus Manus]

Ships like the Soleil Royal were used to convey royal sovereignty, as the mightiest ships of their time. They were meant to inspire awe and/or terror in those who looked upon them. I doubt a little Nef would invoke nearly the same type of emotions, especially in the era of castles and cathedrals with 400-foot tall spires. 

[Chuck Seiler]

16 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

Above it - as far as I've seen the castles were open underneath. In fact quite a few of the contemporary portrayals (though not all, by any means) show the helmsman working underneath the aftercastle.

I remember seeing somewhere, I don't recall if it was in ZIMMERMAN or FIRSCH...or maybe a model, where there was crossbracing of the castles using line.  I have only seen it in the one place, but given the flimsy nature of the supports this makes sense to avoid collapsing when the ship rolled.

 

Thoughts?

[Ferrus Manus]

While that is a sound assumption, line would not be strong enough to provide a significant bolstering of the structural integrity. The castle would have carried a maximum load of about 300lbs (the weight of two men) and as such would not need to be as bulky as the castles of, let's say, a carrack. This also brings us to the issue of the fact that the castles would not need to be tensioned, which is what line would do, but rather held up with wood beams, forming four triangles (the strongest geometric shape) out of wood. 

[Chuck Seiler]

    I partially agree.  The supports would have to hold the weight of the men and the structure.  The supports shown, while spindly, are still sufficient to support that weight and more if the weight is bearing straight down.  Lateral sheering forces come into play when the ship rolls.  The English Channel can be rough at times and I don't know if sailing was suspended during heavy seas.  I would think a roll of more than 30 degrees would put quite a lateral strain on the supports if not braced.

 

    ...on the other hand, as I said before, with one exception I have never seen these braced.

[Ferrus Manus]

Maybe they were just naturally stable and seaworthy vessels, which could be why we haven't discovered a wreck yet. 

[Ferrus Manus]

This is the Storming of Corruna, 1445. Notice the ladders, and how they are constructed exactly how i made mine. The ladder is not glued to the sterncastle yet, and won't be until the rigging is done- too much risk of breaking it off. I also will leave the forecastle ladder off until then. 

 

[Louie da fly]

A nice piece of research and kit-bashing, mate. Looks good.

 

Steven

Edited September 8, 2023 by Louie da fly

[Ferrus Manus]

The mast is now painted, stained, and glued into place. 

[Louie da fly]

Looks good.

 

Steven

[Ferrus Manus]

Let's embark on the journey of standing rigging! 

I got all the shrouds and the forestay done today. 

And that was my theory. On every Nef image i saw, the forestay was simply wrapped around the stempost and that didn't look right. So, i had a theory: What if there was simply a block and tackle system that was omitted in the interest of simplicity, and the bottom of the stay went through a hole and wa siezed or tied there, and the tackle for the stay was wrapped around the stempost. So, that is what i did: i made the best of both worlds, combining logic and observation. 

[Ferrus Manus]

And the backstays:

[Ferrus Manus]

@Louie da fly what do you recommend i do for the sail/running rigging? I plan on combining rigging elements of both Viking ships and ships of the Late Middle Ages. 

 

[Louie da fly]

I'd recommend you keep it as simple as possible. Have a look at contemporary pictures of nefs and see what is shown there - https://www.pinterest.com.au/lowe1847/mediaeval-nefs/. I realise artists don't always show everything, but it's a good place to start. Shrouds, stays, braces, sheets, perhaps simple bowlines, and I'd probably stop there. If you want, you could also look at pictures of cogs, https://www.pinterest.com.au/lowe1847/mediaeval-cogs/ as these were coming into use about the end of the period.

 

Steven

[Ferrus Manus]

So you're telling me that the rigging of nefs was simpler than the rigging of viking ships?

[Ferrus Manus]

I was thinking braces, topping lifts, the actual main lift, clew lines, sheets, tacks, bowlines, and that special little thing in the middle of the bottom of the sail. 

[Ferrus Manus]

I highly doubt the rigging was actually as simplistic as the images suggest. That simply would've been unworkable. 

[Louie da fly]

 

4 hours ago, Ferrus Manus said:

So you're telling me that the rigging of nefs was simpler than the rigging of viking ships?

We don't know what the rigging of Viking ships was. We know they had a beitass from written records. All the rest is conjecture, mostly based on difficult to interpret pictures on standing stones.

 

It's your model, and your decision.

 

Steven

[Ferrus Manus]

Steven, you have a great point. I think you have to look at shipbuilding trends across Europe and how they relate to the sociopolitical tide at the time. This vessel would have existed shortly after the 12th Century Renaissance. Thus, therefore, we can assume that nautical technology also took a relatively steep upturn at that period. Ships probably got much less complex after the Fall of Rome, as well as after the Black Death. 

My opinion is that theoretical reconstructions of ships, and especially ships from this time period, need to take into account the time in which they existed. 

Therefore, in my opinion, i believe my prior theory of combining known elements from both earlier and later ships is correct, or at least feasible. 

[Ferrus Manus]

This is the sail and yard, with all blocks attached:

And the sail with the halyard and clewlines, mounted on the yard with rope parrel attached:

[Ferrus Manus]

This is the completed halyard. The reason why the rope coil on the deck looks so beefy is that it contains enough line to allow the yard all the way down the mast, not just a scaled down version. 

I absolutely love how reactive the sail is 😁

[Ferrus Manus]

The brace lines, and their rope hanks, are complete:

[GrandpaPhil]

Amazing work, Ferrus!

[Ferrus Manus]

Topping lifts

and tack lines

[Ferrus Manus]

Sheet and clew lines, plus a bunch of rope coils

[Louie da fly]

Probably a bit late to add this (and yes, I was on the hop when I answered you above, so I forgot to add lifts, halyards, and possibly tacks - the last one is uncertain, but a distinct possibility -if a beitass was used by Vikings to push the clew of the sail forward, it's likely a tack would have replaced it), but the seal of Hastings has reef points (who knew?).

 

 

Steven

[Ferrus Manus]

Steven, is "on the hop" an Oz term?

[Louie da fly]

What, it's not an American term as well?

[Ferrus Manus]

It means unprepared. I thought it might also have meant something else Upside Down.