Soleil Royal by EricWiberg - Heller - 1/100 - started 45 years ago

[popeye2sea]

On the question of one rope or two.  I have no definitive answer.  If it helps with the justification, there is a tackle for each rope up in the overhead beams of the inside deck.  As you said 300 lbs. is a lot to haul with a single rope.

 

Regards,

Henry

[EricWiberg]

I am going in a lot of different directions today because of the weather here in Central Wisconsin. We have a major snow storm coming through, followed by days of bitter cold. The issue is that I planned on giving the two hull pieces a bath to remove dust/oils/etc. and then prime them tomorrow after drying. But I have no booth or vented spray room... so was thinking of spraying outside, but I don't think the paint would appreciate 0F temperatures!

 

So... on to guns and gun carriages. The gun carriages suffered the most when I broke the ship apart three weeks ago (after 45 years)... the majority ended up in many pieces (though no real breakage). I decided it would be a lot easier to assemble new gun carriages than have to reassemble hundreds of plastic pieces (after stripping the paint off of them). I also wanted to see what metal guns would look like on the model, so I ordered guns and wooden carriage sets from HiSModel. I ordered metal guns as the Heller plastic barrels seemed a bit too small for me; looking at tables for 17th century barrel lengths and diameters, the Heller parts were a bit too fine for me (though I love the decoration on the Heller parts... I will probably want those Heller cannon on areas of the upper decks where they can be seen), whereas the vast metal barrels were almost spot on in their dimensions. 

 

The only thing that was off was the bore diameter. Using a 32# Heller cannon, next to the metal cannon, the plastic cannon bore diameter is too small whereas the metal cannon is 1/100" too big. There is very littlr room available to bore out the Heller cannon, so I decided II could live with 1/100 too big on the metal cannon... note the shotgun pellets (I load my own shells for upland bird hunting), from R to L, that is a #4 pellet, a #6 pellet, and a #9 pellet. The #9 pellet is 0.08" diameter, and the appropriate "cannon ball" for the HiSModel cannon would basically be a #10 shot at 0.07" diameter. As I said, I can live with a bore diameter 1/100" off! 

 

Another side affect is that the metal cannons seem to be too large for the Heller plastic gun carriages. The size of the wooden carriages looks to me to be more proportional with the metal cannon. though whether wood or plastic, the gun carriages will be out of sight on the two lower gun decks (and I think I put the metal cannon on a smaller gun carriage which doesn't help the visual comparison!). I thought that I might be bothered by the faint casting seams on the metal cannon, but when they are inserted into the hull and just sticking out, it was almost impossible for me to see the seams even if one knew to look for them.

 

 

Finally, gun port lids. I finished adding the gun port lining inserts on the #32 pound main battery deck. I used 1.5mm thick polystyrene squares, but I will use 1mm polystyrene squares for the #24 pound secondary battery deck gun port lids. I think it is more proportional (#32 pound lid on left and #24 pound lid on right). 

 

I am not sure how to eventually affix them. I would like to add a "tube" hinge to each strap. Note the 1mm wide by 0.5mm ID tube right next to the lid with some very thin brass wire as a potential rod. That combination looks more proportional than the 1.5mm tubes that are also shown. The 0.5mm ID tube is so small with so little surface area, that even using super glue on the hull to attach makes me worried, but I don't want to just glue the lids into the ports like I did 45 years ago! Before I even think about adding a faux hinge, I have to figure a good way to really attach the gun port lids to the hull, as I know that I will be bumping into the lids as I work (though even "welding" tiny lids to ther hull wouldn't save them from my elbow). 

[EricWiberg]

Henry, thanks for your thoughts on one gun port lid rope vs two ropes! I searched for pictures online that would show gun port lid rigging, but struck out. I remembered that I had seen a lengthy video tour on YouTube of the HMS Victory, so I brought that up and also found tours of the Vasa, the USS Constitution, and the HMS Warrior. There are moments on the HMS Victory and HMS Warrior tours where you can freeze the screen and see the gun port lid rigging. Both of these ships had two gun port lid ropes that came through the ships hull and attached to a single pulley block (terminology?). A single rope led from this block to another pulley, and then to another pulley and so on (I had assumed that each gun port lid rope would have its own pulley system). It looks like there are at least three pulley ropes, and maybe five total pulley ropes, so that would dramatically decrease the effort needed to raise/lower the gun port lid. I am not sure if one person could do it alone, but two people likely could. So given that there seems to be one pulley system when a gun port lid has two ropes, it may not be far-fetched for me to think that a single gun port lid rope could be operated by a single pulley system. I am not sure why two ropes would be better than one rope, as you can see that if one of the two ropes were "shot away", it would unravel on the pulley and you would effectively lose both ropes? So I do feel better that it is not inaccurate to to use one gun port lid rope, but there must be a reason why a transition seems to have been made from one rope to two ropes (1700? 1750? 1800?), albeit both ropes attached to a single pulley system, UNLESS the single pulley system was a relic of the restoration process and back in they they really did use two pulley systems for two ropes.

[Ian_Grant]

Eric, you could try PM'ing "Dafi" about the number of gunport lid ropes; if anyone would know, he might.

 

Also, did you order the entire set of 108 "SoRo" guns from HISmodel?  They look fantastic in their photos!  I noticed their diagram of assembling the upper deck gun carriages by gluing the side pieces to the side of the bottom piece, rather than along the top edges of the bottom piece, to increase the width of the carriage. Makes sense. Remember to glue the wheels on closer to the front and back of the carriages for a better look. Heller has the axles too close together....👍

Edited January 12 by Ian_Grant

[EricWiberg]

Ian, I ordered 60 "below deck" guns first, as it will take me some time to get to the upper decks. Thanks for the advice on the distance between the wheels... I looked up what you are referring to and it makes complete sense. I thought at first the metal cannons might be too big, but it turns out that their dimensions and scale are accurate. I hope the heavier, more robust appearance of the guns will stand out and make the ship look like the floating wooden castle that she was.

[Hubac's Historian]

You might find that the stock lower battery 36-pounders look more to scale on the upper main deck battery, if you wish to take advantage of the nicely detailed Heller barrels.

[Ian_Grant]

10 hours ago, Hubac's Historian said:

You might find that the stock lower battery 36-pounders look more to scale on the upper main deck battery, if you wish to take advantage of the nicely detailed Heller barrels.

Eric if you do so, it is recommended (by Dafi et. al.) to cut off the trunnions and drill the barrels for new ones, slightly further back. As built by Heller the barrels sit too far back on the carriage with the breech cantilevered out the back end.

 

I saw someone else's build with those guns; she looked much more realistically menacing indeed.

Edited January 13 by Ian_Grant

[Hubac's Historian]

Yes, that’s an excellent tip!

[EricWiberg]

Thank you for the tip, Ian... I looked it up and there is a big difference. I may well use the Heller cannon on the visible upper decks (and use the bigger cannon as Marc has noted). The Heller cannon do have very nice decorations. Also, I think that I may run the breeching rope on those cannon through the gun carriage, instead of on the gun barrel itself, as that seems to be a way the French did it at the time... thought that may be many months out!

[Hubac's Historian]

25 minutes ago, EricWiberg said:

Thank you for the tip, Ian... I looked it up and there is a big difference. I may well use the Heller cannon on the visible upper decks (and use the bigger cannon as Marc has noted). The Heller cannon do have very nice decorations. Also, I think that I may run the breeching rope on those cannon through the gun carriage, instead of on the gun barrel itself, as that seems to be a way the French did it at the time... thought that may be many months out!

Correct you are - breaching ropes through the carriages.

[Hubac's Historian]

I will also mention that when I did my lower battery guns in a dark bronze with a ver-de-gris wash, those decorations pop very visibly:

 

Looking through my file pics to find the guns, I saw John Ott’s brilliant Photoshop (or some similar program) adaptation of SR’s sister ship La Reyne into Soleil Royal.  This makes me happy every time I see it.

[dafi]

Hello Eric, very nice start 🙂

 

Ian is putting lot of confidence in my knowledge, but I think Hubac is much closer to this time frame than me with my Victory.

 

Here is the aforementioned change of the guns: Trunnions more to the back and axxis more apart, It immediately looses the "toygun"-flair 😉

 

 

As for the pot lids, it was still common at this timeframe just to have 1 lanyard, when they actually changed to 2 I am not sure. And if Soleil was equipped with 2 I know even less 🙂

 

Some hints are given by the "adaptation of SR’s sister ship La Reyne into Soleil Royal" of Hubac´s last post, only showing one ring on the bottom side and the contemporary (HMS) Prince´s contemporary model that also only shows one lanyard per gunport.

 

But if you use 2 lanyards the rings were usually fastened at the end of the metal strips and not inbetween. See the gunport fittings of my Victory. And you also see that even in those later days the smaller gunports also had only 1 lanyard 🙂

 

More about this topic here:

 

Also I used two brass wires to fox the lid to the hulll, this enabling a small gap, here a early version.

 

Together with the small eyebolts from my sets this should look like the following pictures. This should give you the scale of the ensemble of the eyebolts and the according rings, be it 1 or 2 lanyards. First one of implementing the rings onto the eyebolts, second the finished lanyard with leather protection for the inlet hole that was made out of bored out and pulled sprue 🙂

 

Hope this helps, DAniel

 

Just to round up, here a picture of my rendition, also a restart after almost 30 years of tinkering abstinence 🙂

 

 

Edited January 13 by dafi

[EricWiberg]

Marc and Dafi... your observations and input have been extremely helpful and have allowed me to make several decisions.... and I have a question about making eyes and eye bolts!

 

1) Marc, the painting of the cannon is exceptional, no doubt I will use the Heller cannon  on the (visible) upper deck and also adjust the trunnions per Dafi.

 

2) I will stay with one lanyard to raise/lower the gun port lids, and I immediately noticed on the La Reyne drawing that there is one eye on the inside of the lids; now I am very comfortable in using one eye on the outside and also one eye on the inside of all gun port lids. I was going to use two ropes on the stern chaser gun port lids as they look heavier... but if one pulley system is used whether there is one rope or two ropes... I might as well stay with one rope on the outside.

 

3) Dafi, I love the idea of the brass wires anchoring the gun port lids... I will do that! I was trying to figure out some way to replicate a leather sleeve like you have shown... my first thought had been a 0.5mm ID brass tube in the gun port lid rope hole that I would blacken, and then perhaps bend down a bit to replicate the leather waterproofing sleeve. But it might be easier to get that look like you have down with bored out sprue - I will experiment with both methods!

 

4) I saw somewhere that in that time period, ships may have had some kind of cloth or fabric "sock" hanging from their lower scuppers that acted as a sort of check valve that allowed water out, but kept seawater from splashing back in. I will have tiny blackened tubes in my scupper blocks, as I read that the scupper tubes were made of lead? But I have no idea - yet - on how to duplicate a 3mm long fabric sock... I think in that case bored out sprue might look stiff?

 

5) Finally, eyes and eye bolts. I had no idea where to start, so I experimented with various gauges of brass wire and am now using 28 gauge brass wire. For eyes, I have been wrapping the wire around a drill bit of appropriate size as you show in your photo Dafi.

 

As for eye bolts, I just experimented with my own by putting an eye on a brass wire and then twisting the wire... so now I have an eye on an eye bolt that I blacken after cutting the eye bolt shaft to a 1mm length. I see in the picture that Dafi puts the eyes on pre-made eye bolts. If that is best practice, I will make my own eyes and order eye bolts and go in that direction. It almost seems easier to put an eye on a wire and twist the wire into an eye/eye bolt combination? However, if it is faster to use pre-made eye bolts or if they also simply look better in scale, etc. then I will happily buy eye bolts and not make them! 

 

[EricWiberg]

The finished gun port lid photo that Dafi posted above has made me think, especially regarding the leather tube/wrap  that shields the hole in the hull where the gun port lid lanyard come out... but first, my biggest issue is... how can I reliably put a 0.012" rope through a 0.019" ID hole? Any needles and thread pullers are too big to go through the 0.019" hole. I have succeeded several times gently pushing the thread through with tweezers on the bench, but most times I fail, even after stiffening the thread a bit with beeswax. I need to resolve this issue before I can proceed. 

 

Dafi said he made his leather sleeve by boring out a piece of sprue. That is not in my skill set yet, and I already have blackened tiny brass tubes to insert in the gun port lid lanyard hole, but I wasn't going to have them project out. But I think if I do, my leather sleeve issue is solved... below is an unblackened brass tube that I bent very slightly down, and certainly could bend down more.

 

  

 

I inserted a blackened tube into a hole without bending it down, and I added a very crude polystyrene circle, as photos of HMS Victory show a small circlular "patch" around the base of the leather tube... I don't know if the circular patch is leather, but I could make this patch with a hole punch in some paper-thin polystyrene after sanding the attachment point in  the hull. In photos, the circular patch isn't quite flush, but is raised from the hull the tiniest fraction.I can't tell if they painted these leather tubes on the HMS Victory, as the leather tubes are on a black painted section of the hole, and perhaps the leather is naturally black? On my Soleil Royal, all of these leather tubes are going to be in areas that are painted a light brown... I think I would paint the circular patch to match the hull, but leave the leather tube in a blackened state; in real life would it work to paint the leather (maybe they used standing rope "tar" on the leather tubes?). It looks in photos like these leather tubes were somewhat flexible, meaning if the gun port lid were closed, the leather tube pointed down (as the lanyard was down), and if the gun port lid were open, the leather tube pointed out more so as the lanyard was about 90 degrees from the hull.

 

My single biggest issue is getting a 0.012" rope through a 0.019" tube!

 

[popeye2sea]

Stiffen a good length of thread with CA adhesive.  It will turn it as hard as a needle.

 

Regards,

Henry

[EricWiberg]

Henry, I immediately tried that! And if the next 119 attempts work as easily as this one did... you saved me many hours and curse words!

[EricWiberg]

The bitter cold is still keeping me priming the hull and other pieces (I have to spray in my garage with the doors open as I don't have a hood!). So working on other things, like settling on a method to attach gun port lids, using some unblackened brass pieces to experiment. 

 

I first tried glueing on 1mm wide 0.5mm ID brass tubes to act as the hinge, and then placing an "L-shaped" 28 gauge wire in each hinge and pushing into the hull. It worked, and I only had to drill two total holes for the gun port lid (into the hull), but it placed a lot of stress on the tiny hinges. I wasn't satisfied as it was too fragile.

 

I then tried what Dafi did, and that was much better (shocking, right?). This method requires four holes for each lid (two in the hull and two in the lid). However, it was much easier to insert the lid into place, and the hinges (not added to this lid yet) are not involved in the anchoring process. It will also be very easy to make further adjustments before affixing into into a final position.

 

 

Finally, I have not found a suitable material or method to duplicate the circular patch around the leather waterproof tube for the gun lanyard. I need something paper thin and 2mm wide with a 0.7mm hole in the middle. Polystyrene, wood, foil, paper, etc... no go. I then rolled out a very thin layer of Apoxie Sculpt and "stamped" it with a 2mm ID brass tube. This just might work, but I will let it dry for 24 hours first.

[EricWiberg]

After much experimentation, I have found a method that might make the waterproofing leather disc/tube that seal the hole in the hull where the gun port lid lanyard runs through. I tried lots of substrates, but rolling out a very thin sheet of Apoxie Scuplt and then "stamping" 2mm circles with a brass tube seems to work the best (compared to foil, wood, paper, plastic, you name it). However, I wanted the disc flush with the hull as in the HMS Victory pictures that I have seen... so I got a tiny, bunt grinding bit on my Dremel and made a very slight concave dish in the hull. I then glued the resin disc into the hole, let it dry, and... very easy to push my leather tube through. I wont bend the tube down until actual installl as it will need to have a lanyard through it.

 

After a lengthy social media search of how the leather disc/tube was colored, I can NOT find any pictures of anything but the actual HMS Victory, or models of the HMS Victory or a few other warships of that period that show the leather disc/tube, as other models run the lanyard through a hole in the hull. The leather disc/tube is blackish on the HMS Victory but sits on a black painted portion of the ship. On the Soleil Royal, the disc/tube combinations all reside on a section of hull that will be painted light brown, soooooooo..... I think I have some license to do my own interpretation. And I think I will leave the leather disc/tube combination a darkish brown on my Soleil Royal... they will stand out, but I am not sure they would have painted them. Of course, if anyone has any thoughts, I am all ears!

 

So I think I am ready to start painting the hull, as think the leather disc should be applied after hull painting... and then the tube inserted and bent after a 6" length of lanyard is in place for the future gun port lids.

 

[dafi]

Hello Eric,

 

to avoid friction, the tube should be pointing downwards 🙂

 

Anyway I do not know, if at that time this protection was already invented. I believe you can easily skip it.

 

And just to confuse you even more, the monograhy from Gerad Delacroix "The SAINT-Philippe 1693-1715" shows two lanyards, but that was a tad later build. Here a picture that I took on the exhibition in Rochefort in 2018.

Also have a look here at the gods of french arsenal building:

https://5500.forumactif.org/f92-le-saint-philippe-1693-1715-plans-jean-claude-lemineur

https://5500.forumactif.org/f11-le-vaisseau-de-colbert-1670-plans-anonymes

https://5500.forumactif.org/f31-la-renommee-1744-plans-jean-boudriot

 

Edited January 17 by dafi

[EricWiberg]

Dafi, thank you for the observation on friction; I will make sure to have the leather tubes pointing down. Looking at photos of the HMS Victory, I think the leather tube was a bit flexible? I say this because on pictures where the gun port is raised and the lanyards are in a horizontal position, the leather tubes stick out almost straight to the side; when the gun port is lowered and the rope is almost vertical, the leather tubes point downward.

 

Whether the weatherproof leather tube for gun port lid lanyards was even invented at the time of the Soleil Royal, as you say, who knows? But they must have have made some attempts to weatherproof the gun port lid lanyard hole, and I just can't imagine that they would let a lanyard slide back and forth over wooden edges without some kind of tube in the hull wall for the rope to pass through and reduce friction and wear/tear. But, I have almost all of the discs in place, so you could say I am committed to the idea and can't skip it!

 

I do find the question of one vs two gun port lid lanyards interesting, just from the point if there is ONE pulley system internally to raise/lower the lid, there is no mechanical advantage to have two lanyards vs one lanyard. And I suspect that since a first rate ship was about the most complicated mechanism that mankind could design at the time, the people operating it would naturally be looking for ways to improve efficiency, to make things simpler and more reliable for them to use. Thank you for the links - it is very interesting to see what other people are doing!

[EricWiberg]

After my last post on Jan 17... I stuggled for a week. Did I still want to push quickly through this 45 year old model by experimenting with a lot of things to hasten my skill development for the next model (and keep using a lot of Tamiya putty as I experimented), or... did I want to to see how beautiful this kit could be. I spent a week looking doing a deep dive into the countless SR build logs of various sizes and kits and materials. Marc at Hubac's Historian has been very helpful - thank you!

 

I did nothing for a week... until an EBay add popped up on my phone... an SR hull for $29 (gee, it was almost like they were tracking what I was looking at for a week). When I hit the "purchase" button, my path forward was set!

 

So the new hull arrived four days ago on Thursday. I have 1) sanded the hull, 2) thickened the gun ports, 3) installed the hawse hull pieces flush, 4) cut off the hull ladders, and 5) am almost done with the the scarf joints. 

 

I need to drill gun port lid lanyard holes, make the fenders, add my ladder steps, and... I am now confident enough to try and create hunting ports. Regarding hunting ports, In some of the VDV drawings it appears that the hunting port might be pushed forward a bit further, in other words with not exactly the same spacing as the other gun ports? Or is that a perception/parallax issue?

 

So in another week, I think I will be right back where I was on Jan 17... but with a much better hull ready to paint and a completely different goal for this kit.

[Hubac's Historian]

Eric, I like your scarf jig - those scribes look very clean.

 

Since you are starting fresh, I will encourage you to pay close attention to the sweeping lines of the anchor lining.  With permission I will use two pictures from Marc Yeu’s photo archive to illustrate the point.

 

First is Frolich’s L’Ambiteaux:

Next, is Marc’s magnificent scratch-build of Soleil Royal:

What I’d like to draw your attention to, specifically, are the places where timber is filled flush with the neighboring wales; only between the pair of lower main wales does the surface run flush all the way up to the stem.

 

As for the hunting port, I personally tend to find the VdVelde drawings to be credible guides for the placement of ports, as so many original drawings show the ghosts of prior port placement, which were erased and re-drawn.  In other words, this was an important detail that they were trying to get right.  So, yes, I think many French ships carried this hunting port as far forward as possible, so that the in-haul tackles were likely affixed right next to the cable manger, and so that gun recoil was less likely to foul the cable bitts.

 

Once again, you’re off to a great start!

[Hubac's Historian]

I am also quite impressed with how neatly you inlet the hawser piece.  I found this a very fiddly thing to do well.

Edited January 29 by Hubac's Historian

[EricWiberg]

Marc, those pictures illustrate the sweep of the anchor lining beautifully! On my first hull, I actually thought the hawse hole plate wasn't flush on purpose... that the anchor lining was intended to stop right at the edge! I see where the extra timber build ups flush between the two lower wales... I think that I have seen on some models - yours as well? - that thickened timber between the two bottom wales goes back several gun ports, as many as two or three more gun ports?

 

I will attach the actual anchor off of the cathead and move it back and forth so I can pencil in lines for the actual sweep of the flukes.

 

And regarding the scribed scarf cuts... I have resolved to create a jig for just about every situation that requires any cutting or drilling of holes! 

 

Finally, on the second photo of Marc's SR build... is that a scupper hole in the lower right? After looking at so many drawings and model builds, I have thought about making my scuppers a 1.5mm brass tube in the hull with a blackened brass flange around the scupper (this is the old hull that I am experiementing on and the tube isn't blackened yet). Marc's looks a lot better but is the same general idea... I have toyed with the idea of making nice boxes that stick slightly out of the hull, but this approach is a lot easier for my skill set at this point.

.

[Hubac's Historian]

What you are seeing on Marc’s model is a scupper for the manger.  Because the timber is flush with the wales, in this area, it is not necessary to have a projecting scupper.  On the interior, the Manger is like a big slop-sink that helps to shed water from the cables as they are hauled, inboard.  The interior surfaces of the manger are lined with, I believe, lead sheet.

 

On my model, I think what you are referring to are timber fills between the middle pair of wales.

These are specifically to support the preventer plate links and eye rings.  See, again, frolich’s model:

Frolich didn’t blacken these timber fills, and their edges are a little hard to see, but they only extend the width of the chanels.

Edited January 29 by Hubac's Historian

[EricWiberg]

I installed the starboard hunting port today and it went better than I thought. My first intent was to scribe it like Marc (Hubac's Historian) did. But even with a jig, I realized that I was going to butcher it if I scribed it. I have several spare gun port lids. I took one and carefully sanded the back down from 1.0mm thick to 0.25mm. Then using a needle file and Dremel, I gradually cut a recess that the lid popped right into and is essentially flush to the surface. it needs a little cleanup, of course, but I am quite happy that I could figure out an installation method that matched my skill set! I won't bother installing the hunting port lids until the rest of the gun port lids go on.

 

[Hubac's Historian]

Wow!  Creative solution to that particular problem.  It looks perfect!

[Ian_Grant]

Pardon my ignorance .... what is a hunting port?  For a stern chase? Helping with fishing the anchor?

[EricWiberg]

Ian, l first saw the reference on this page of Marc's build log (Hubac's Historian). I believe they were never armed, but used for assistance with the anchor... I know you can see them on at least a few VDV drawings, but my overall knowledge on the subject ends there... there are obviously other people with much more knowledge.

 

 

[Hubac's Historian]

On 1/30/2024 at 10:18 PM, Ian_Grant said:

Pardon my ignorance .... what is a hunting port?  For a stern chase? Helping with fishing the anchor?

Hi Ian,

 

On these mid-to-late 17th C. French ships, the so-called “hunting port” is as closely aligned with the ship’s longitudinal axis, as possible, so as to provide additional forward firepower, when a ship is giving chase.

 

The stern structures were the most vulnerable to raking and chasing fire, so it would only take a few 36lb cannon shot to come ripping through the stern facade and bouncing down the length of the gun-deck, inflicting significant injury to the ship and her company of men.

 

These ports were only ever situationally armed, though, by shifting the next gun aft, forward into the hunting port.  Despite artist depictions, and even the VdVeldes are guilty of this, these ports were only seldom used for this purpose.

 

They may also have been of some assistance with anchor handling, as Eric suggests, but I suspect not as they fell out of favor by the 1690’s.  The weakening of the bow structure wasn’t justified, given their scant practical usage.