HMS Greyhound by tennfox - Corel - 1:100 - building as USS Protector

[Old Collingwood]

On 3/16/2024 at 8:56 PM, tennfox said:

It does appear I have to cut the keel off and plane the plywood down and reattach the keel.  The first image is the first and second plank material on the bulk heads.   I believe I need to plane down to the pencil line.   Should that line go straight line the original or does it need to sweep up.?

Man this kit is a challenge. Lucky its wood, you can always glue sand and fill, then redo...

Frame  no12  needs  to  be  sanded   flat  where  it meets  the  keel  (keeping the  natural  curve  but  making its  lower  point  level  with  the  main fraim)   this  way  the  planks  will  follow  a natural  flow  up to  the  rear  when you   start   planking up from the  keel.     Hope  that  makes sense.

Check out  my  pic  showing a  natural  smooth  line   - 

 

OC.

[Old Collingwood]

12 hours ago, hamilton said:

Don't cut the keel!!!! Shim the bulkheads instead - it is easier to take wood off that you've added than to add back wood you've removed, so it is much safer to correct the structural issue you're facing by shimming up the bulkhead edges.

 

When I look at your photos, here's what I see:

 

1. the mid-ships bulkheads look good - they seem to finish touching the top of the bearding line and they look reasonably even.

 

2. Bulkheads 9/10, which you've already modified, now also look good to me - they imply a nice gentle curve for the run aft of the planking

 

3. The last bulkhead forward of the transom looks like it needs trimming up - you'll see that the bottom intersects the bearding line, which it should not do - imagine a curve along the bottom of the bulkheads up to the aft edge of the slot for the transom bulkhead - you need to adjust your bulkheads to fit along that line.

 

4. The 4th bulkhead from the forwardmost one seems to rise too soon - and the 3rd one back is too high for sure and will need to be shimmed like B/H 9/10. There is also a gentle curving of the bearding line up the stem - b/h 1 & 2 in your photo look good, but 3 is way too high to allow for that nice curve you should see at the bows. 

 

Finally - a word of encouragement. This is by far the most difficult and frustrating part of this build. It took me a long time to get through it and this was my 12th wooden ship kit, so I had some experience. Do not give up no matter how frustrating it may get. And do not hold yourself to results that the kit itself may make it really difficult to achieve. 

hamilton

Like  Hamilton   said   -  this  was   the  most   difficult  -  confusing   stage  of  the  build   for  me  -  it took me   days  if not weeks   of  trial  and  error   -  testing  adding   wood  fillers   and   asking  lots  of questions   to  try  to correct  the  errors  in the  kit.

 

OC.

[Old Collingwood]

11 hours ago, hamilton said:

Yes - OC has achieved a great result here - if you can get yours looking like this, you'll be ready to move on. You don't have to build them up to the keel. Just to fit along the bearding line - here is an MSW thread that talks about the bearding and rabbet lines - the ships uses as e.g.'s aren't exactly like Greyhound but you will get the principle and general idea from this.

 

 

hamilton

Thank  you  hamilton,   I followed   the  Rabbet  and  Bearding line  info  also  before   doing it   in my build  -  also  the  addition of  extra  fram fillers   helped  alot.

 

OC.

[Old Collingwood]

8 hours ago, tennfox said:

Been working on building up the bulk heads.   They are all kind of wonky.   How are these looking.?  I think I have the length/drop close.  

Like  in my  pic  further  up  I added  some  strips  of wood  in between each frame  -  way  to  do that  is  to  measure the gap  both  port and starboard  and  and  after making sure  the frames  are  true  to the  keel  -  cut and  glue  in place  the  wood  strips  working your way down  each   corresponding  port  and  starboard   frame,  I used  a  block  of wood  that  I knew  was   perfectly  square  and  sat that  where the  frame  met  the   main keel   frame,    that way  you not only  get a  true   frame  to  keel  but also adds  strength  to  the  skeleton stage  of the  build.

 

OC.

[allanyed]

Looking good Tennfox! 

Don't forget to taper the knee of the head.  This is is not commonly shown or explained in kits, Syren and Vanguard being exceptions.  There may be others, but most are unaware or ignore this, resulting in the forward most part of the knee of the head being much too broad.  In the case of Greyhound (Protector), assuming the stem is sided 14" at the head as specified in the 1719 Establishment for a 20 gun ship,  the knee of the head would taper to about 5.5 inches full scale (0.055" -- 1.4mm at 1:100)

Allan

 

 

Edited March 18 by allanyed

[tennfox]

Thanks!  I checked the planking and I may have 1mm -1.5mm of space between the keep and the bottom of the bH when planked.  a bit of the plywood shows.  Not sure how to deal with that yet....

[tennfox]

33 minutes ago, allanyed said:

Looking good Tennfox! 

Don't forget to taper the knee of the head.  This is is not commonly shown or explained in kits, Syren and Vanguard being exceptions.  There may be others, but most are unaware or ignore this, resulting in the forward most part of the knee of the head being much too broad.  In the case of Greyhound (Protector), assuming the stem is sided 14" at the head as specified in the 1719 Establishment for a 20 gun ship,  the knee of the head would taper to about 5.5 inches full scale (0.055" -- 1.4mm at 1:100)

Allan

 

 

Im very new to the ship building lingo,  Could you explaint "knee of the head"?

[tennfox]

5 hours ago, Old Collingwood said:

Frame  no12  needs  to  be  sanded   flat  where  it meets  the  keel  (keeping the  natural  curve  but  making its  lower  point  level  with  the  main fraim)   this  way  the  planks  will  follow  a natural  flow  up to  the  rear  when you   start   planking up from the  keel.     Hope  that  makes sense.

Check out  my  pic  showing a  natural  smooth  line   - 

 

OC.

Thanks OC... ive been studying your build a lot since you have a lot of great pictures to go by..  I did notice that towards the end the pictures dont show, only  dead links.  

 

Im still sanding and building on the BHs im finding more spots that are flat, too round, and just bad. 

 

Thanks for all the help, it is EXTREMELY appreciated.

[allanyed]

4 hours ago, tennfox said:

Im very new to the ship building lingo,  Could you explaint "knee of the head"?

Picture and a 1000 words..........    The dimensions in the lower sketch are for a 20 gun ship built to the 1719 English Admiralty Establishment, but varied very little in later years.  

Allan

 

 

Edited March 18 by allanyed

[tennfox]

That really helps.. Thank you.   I didnt know about that.  It look like it narrows and tapers... 

[allanyed]

Yessir, it does.  While the taper, as you move forward from the head of the stem, is not difficult to make, the narrowing from top to bottom may be problematic.  While the tapering from the stem to the foremost edge of the knee of the head is quite noticeable I would guess that few viewers will know about or notice if the vertical tapering is not present so maybe best to leave it alone.  

 

Out of curiosity, what is the width of the keel?  Establishment scantlings call for a width of 12" midships where it is actually 12" square,  10.5" wide at the stem, and 7.5" at the stern post.  At  your scale of 1:100 -- 3mm midships, 2.7 mm at the stem, and about 2 mm at the stern post. 

 

This may all be of little importance for now, but maybe something to consider for future builds.

 

Allan  

 

 

 

 

[Old Collingwood]

7 hours ago, tennfox said:

Thanks OC... ive been studying your build a lot since you have a lot of great pictures to go by..  I did notice that towards the end the pictures dont show, only  dead links.  

 

Im still sanding and building on the BHs im finding more spots that are flat, too round, and just bad. 

 

Thanks for all the help, it is EXTREMELY appreciated.

Yes  I think  some of pics  vanished.

 

OC.

[tennfox]

I think I've gotten the bh pretty close.   Im gluing them in place then I'll lay some planks and do more filling and sanding.   I've been studying everyone's s builds,  and i think I'm going to follow @Old Collingwood on the bow and put #24. I  at a 45' .  I can use all the help I can get for the planking, so the 45' will help.  I may even put filler blocks in between some of the bh.to aid in the smoothing. 

Edited March 20 by tennfox

[tennfox]

@Old Collingwood how much did you have to sand off of 24? Seems like they are a little too proud.  Did you trim before or after you glued?

[Old Collingwood]

54 minutes ago, tennfox said:

@Old Collingwood how much did you have to sand off of 24? Seems like they are a little too proud.  Did you trim before or after you glued?

24?  not sure  I  understand  what you  mean  as there is only  12 frames.

 

OC.

[Old Collingwood]

I see  now  -  item  num 24  at the  front  -  this  part  -    I think I just  glued them  than  sanded  till  I got a   smooth line  and  checked  for  hight  etc.

 

OC.

Edited March 20 by Old Collingwood

[Old Collingwood]

And  I added  some  fillers  that  where  then  sanded  to  get the  correct  curve to the  beak head,  you  can keep  checking this  with on of the  planks   by gently  following the  profile  of the  frames  - (Both sides  the  same amount)

 

OC.

[Old Collingwood]

You  are looking for a  smooth  rounded  route  to the  beak head  -  I took mine off  as  it  had weakened  from filing  into  it  to  slot the  planks  in,  but it was  just as easy  as long as  all planks  finsihed  level.

 

OC,

[tennfox]

Sorry for the lack of explanation.  When Im building and posting images Im using my Tablet and its keyboard is not the best.

 

Those pictures are perfect. Thank you.  Do you have any photos of your rebate/rabbit along the keel and stern?  Just trying to see how far back you started cutting into it.  I will definately hit you up on how to frame out the cannon ports.  Ive seen a few builds and each build does this differently.   

 

Thanks again...

Edited March 20 by tennfox

[tennfox]

Ok.  Got the bh in and painted them for shadowing purposes.  On to installing the decks.   

 

Question for @Old Collingwood @hamilton @Srenner  1. Was there enough decking to do all the decks,  even  the lower?  2. I if you had to do it over would you deck the upper main deck first, aside from the edges if your cutting the bh  back, before installing it?   It looks like you have to work under the front and rear decks in the instructions. 

[Srenner]

Hi... I don't think there is enough decking to do the lower deck... although i wasn't that careful and didn't try and minimize the cut off ends... adding up all the small left over cuts might be enough for the lower deck. Can't you just buy 0.7mm basswood strips from a supplier anyway if you wanted more?

[tennfox]

9 minutes ago, Srenner said:

Hi... I don't think there is enough decking to do the lower deck... although i wasn't that careful and didn't try and minimize the cut off ends... adding up all the small left over cuts might be enough for the lower deck. Can't you just buy 0.7mm basswood strips from a supplier anyway if you wanted more?

Yea, but the kit shows it some kind of Maple... I didnt want to mix woods on visible areas.  I plan to age the wood like @Old Collingwood with vinegar and steel wool.  Turns it a cool greyish.  Thanks Ill just pic up some for the lower deck.

[hamilton]

I had no trouble completing all deck planking with the material provided - albeit, by the time I built this model I had a significant pile of leftover material (including dimensions needed for this deck planking) so I can't recall if all of the deck planking came out of the Greyhound box. 

 

My advice - though maybe it's dumb or at least really cumbersome - is that you take a total measure of all the woodstrips provided by

Corel for deck planking and then get rough width and length measurements of the sub-decks. There tends to be less attrition of wood in deck planking compared with hull planking so if the numbers are close (but not over on the sub-deck side) then you should be ok - even a rough go at this will give you a decent impression. 

 

I'm envious of your progress - I have not been able to get a day at the bench in over two months due to work and family stuff - and now work is getting to its busiest time for the next few weeks - I have a couple of weeks of quiet at the end of April, so hopefully then I'll finally be able to get some time at the bench! For now, I'll enjoy yours!

hamilton

Edited March 23 by hamilton

[tennfox]

Thanks!... I just ordered some basswood strips that Ill use on the lower, just to be safe. I can practice ageing them before I do the upper more visible decks.  

Any thought on my 2nd question on planking the whole deck before putting it on?  I plan to put a lot of time to the deck. Inking the sides, cutting and staggering the breaks, and pencil tree nailing them.  I think its too small to use toothpicks for the tree nails, so Im keeping it small.

[tennfox]

Ok, Rant time.

If you are thinking about doing this kit here area few helpful hints.

 

You better be married. So you will already know: frustration, disappointment, and confusion.

This kit should come with a bottle of whiskey.

If there was a test you had to take before you could be allowed to build scratch built... this would be it. 

 

Seriously,

1. bulkhead 9 and 10 need to be built up.

2. do not glue the bulkheads before you put on the deck, test it first.

3. be prepared to alter, build or modify most every part.

 

 

I answered my own question about putting the upper deck on... You have to. But I found out that 13 bulkhead didn't line up anywhere close so I had to take it off.

Most of the BH were too thick for the deck to sit without bending. Those had to be sanded and the cut outs on the deck had to be opened.

 

I made a cardboard template of the deck that I'm going to use to cut the deck planks so I can plank it right.  I may end up planking the template and just gluing that to the deck...That remains to be seen.  I've never seen a "kit" where nothing fit right or the cut outs didn't matchup.  I had to enlarge the front mast hole because that was off a little too.  

 

Rant over... Thanks for letting me vent.

 

 

[ccoyle]

43 minutes ago, tennfox said:

Ok, Rant time.

If you are thinking about doing this kit here area few helpful hints.

 

The worst wooden kit I ever built was Corel's Flying Fish. It has been observed in the past by more than one MSW member that Corel kits seem to follow the rule of "you get what you pay for." Builders rave about their high-end kits, but their cheaper offerings have been fraught with problems. On the bright side, think about how much character you're building!

[tennfox]

ive glued the deck down and ive been looking at everyone's build logs for my next steps.  Should the outside of the bulkheads be even with the deck? and the first strip of wood for framing the ports goes on top or even with the deck? i believe i have to notch the bh and the strip will become even with the bh? is that correct?

heres Hamilton's start the bh looks even with the deck.

[Old Collingwood]

I  built  up  the  outer  planking  first  after  fairing the  bulkheads  (to get a  nice smooth  natural line of planks)   you   could  do  this  starting  from the  top  from the  Poop  deck Frames  and  work down  till  you  are just below the main deck  height.

Then  you  could  cut  the  inner frame  flat  with  the  deck  and  plank the  deck  from the  planks  both sides (not forgetting  you will  need  some  inner  wall  planks to  go  on)   that would save you  trying  to  fit  the  deck planks around  the  bulkhead frames  that would still  need  cutting back  to  your  outer  planking.

Hope that  helps.

 

OC.

[tennfox]

ok.. gonna have to process that a while..trying to figure out how that looks.... if i see it i can do it.

is that first piece of walnut supposed to be even or inline (looking from above) with the edge of the deck? is that why the instructions show it cut out?

[Old Collingwood]

8 minutes ago, tennfox said:

ok.. gonna have to process that a while..trying to figure out how that looks.... if i see it i can do it.

is that first piece of walnut supposed to be even or inline (looking from above) with the edge of the deck? is that why the instructions show it cut out?

Follow  the  line  and  tops  of the  frames    first,  if there is a  slight  gap  between  the  sub deck and  the  line of  outer planks  - it wont matter   as  your  deck planks  will  cover that,     you need  to  remove  the  frames  level with  the  sub deck  to get the  correct  inner beam, I have  seen  some builders  leave the frames in place and  plank the inside  walls  attaching the  planks  to the  frames  making the  inner  width from wall  to  wall   to narrow.

 

OC.