Hull Plug for a mold (reproduction of the hull maybe)

[Scottish Guy]

Dear fellow model builder, like I stated a couple of times, I want to build one day my own little dream yacht, a copy of an origin sailing yacht. I want to build it from scratch since there is no scale model of the yacht or any yacht fo that company available. Since I only have drawings and 3D model pictures of the yacht I was thinking fo creating a hull plug (like the origin as well) to make my own mold and then laminate the hull as the manufacturer of the origin yacht does.

 

Now I´m wondering how to create this plug, the origin plug is milled by a huge CNC machine, unofortunately I don´t have the source of the blueprints nor a huge CNC mill. I was wondering if I could "sand" my own plug of either foam or clay and then use this to make the mold. Both has advantages and disadvantages though. Maybe there is even a complete different approach to consider, I don´t know and that´s why I ask here. Maybe someone has experience with such a problem already or maybe has ideas to steer me into the right direction.

 

I know that a massive issue is that I don´t have any plans or lines to use as a plan to follow since the orignal yacht is glassfiber and therefore I can´t follow any planking. I only have 3D models (as pictures) and drawings (topview with deck and builds) and a sideview with the shape of the boat. Then I have various 3D models as pictures from different angles.

 

I´m still figuring out how to bring this all together to get a proper shape of the hull but I know there must be a way. Not yet sure how...

 

Micha

 

(the picture is just an example and not of the actual yacht)

Edited April 3 by Scottish Guy

[allanyed]

Found this on line.

Creating an Original Plug

When beginning the process of creating an original plug, you must first determine the type of material that will be used. Plugs can be created from a variety of materials, as long as they are dimensionally stable. These materials commonly include wood, MDF, clay, SMC, foam and balsa. If the plug is to be made from a porous material such as wood or foam, the surface must be sealed with a resin or primer. #1041 Duratec Gray Surfacing Primer is ideal for this application and will be discussed later in this article. Plugs need to have a slight taper so that the mold can be easily removed. Typically, a larger plug will require more rigid and reinforced materials.   From https://www.fibreglast.com/product/Plug-Construction-Guide

Edited April 3 by allanyed

[Scottish Guy]

18 minutes ago, allanyed said:

Found this on line.

Creating an Original Plug

When beginning the process of creating an original plug, you must first determine the type of material that will be used. Plugs can be created from a variety of materials, as long as they are dimensionally stable. These materials commonly include wood, MDF, clay, SMC, foam and balsa. If the plug is to be made from a porous material such as wood or foam, the surface must be sealed with a resin or primer. #1041 Duratec Gray Surfacing Primer is ideal for this application and will be discussed later in this article. Plugs need to have a slight taper so that the mold can be easily removed. Typically, a larger plug will require more rigid and reinforced materials.   From https://www.fibreglast.com/product/Plug-Construction-Guide

 

Thank you Allan, will have a look at this article. I´m not yet sure what material I should use. I´m tempted to use foam and seal it, but clay I could use and ask someone to mill it with a CNC (like the original hull plug is created). Just not sure how much and how easy it will be to get all that clay. In the scale I would like to do the model it would be roughly 872 mm (34.3") and that is a lot of clay...

 

Micha

[Jaager]

Where did the 3D model come from?

Can you contact the one in possession of it?

You want about 12  X-Y cross sections at known positions.  0 rotation

You want 1  X-Z   0 rotation

If you chose the more sane option of a plane view lift model

You want Y-Z slices at about 1/4"  intervals at your model's scale. 

 

If you go with a mold plug,  the 12 (or more) cross sections can be the exact plug shapes.

Hold the plug sections in place using Bamboo dowels and each can be removed individually when their job is done.

If you use a new cotton pillow case and Titebond III in multi layers as the hull - Saran Wrap over the plug will void the sticking problem,

 

[Scottish Guy]

10 hours ago, Jaager said:

Where did the 3D model come from?

Can you contact the one in possession of it?

You want about 12  X-Y cross sections at known positions.  0 rotation

You want 1  X-Z   0 rotation

If you chose the more sane option of a plane view lift model

You want Y-Z slices at about 1/4"  intervals at your model's scale. 

 

If you go with a mold plug,  the 12 (or more) cross sections can be the exact plug shapes.

Hold the plug sections in place using Bamboo dowels and each can be removed individually when their job is done.

If you use a new cotton pillow case and Titebond III in multi layers as the hull - Saran Wrap over the plug will void the sticking problem,

 

 

Hi Jaager,

 

the 3D models (pictures) come from the manufacturer of the original yacht (like posted in the hull post already). 

 

I contacted Magnus Rassy already and they don´t give any additional sources as that are publicy available already. No blueprints, no more 3D pictures / models of the yacht.

Therefore I won´t get any more details as I have already. If you tell me it is not possible this way I need to find another way to reproduce the hull by maybe wait till I find a yacht lifted out and scan the hull (don´t know if there are scanners I can afford that could scan an entire 57ft yacht) or I run out of options here and sacrifice the details and just make a hull close to the origin instead of keeping it as correct as possible.

 

Micha

[Jaager]

Micha,

 

Ask Rassy for a table of offsets.  - it is not an America's Cup candidate. 

 

High tech is not necessary.  A jig made from 2x4's  - A "U" shape (without the rounded corners)  to site the keel and be perp. and a sliding yard stick. 

Get the NRJ CD's and find the older articles on taking off lines from a half hull model.  Except getting a pantograph tracing of the cross section curve

would be too large (unless you figure a way to make an actual reducing pantograph of it).  Or, or .  do they make laser line levels that measure the distance?

Then it is just a matter of writing down some numbers show on a screen -  like the stick version without the interpolation.

 

In your place, I would just go to school on all this - making sure my bites were not too ambitious and then when I felt confident enough to scratch build a modern luxury yacht model, pick one that does have available lines.  Then show Magnus Rassy the celebration of his design that he missed.  If you have not caught an entirely different bug - after you have gotten a deeper view of the possibilities in all this. 

Edited April 4 by Jaager

[Scottish Guy]

9 minutes ago, Jaager said:

High tech is not necessary.  A jig made from 2x4's  - A "U" shape (without the rounded corners)  to site the keel and be perp. and a sliding yard stick. 

Get the NRJ CD's and find the older articles on taking off lines from a half hull model.  Except getting a pantograph tracing of the cross section curve

would be too large (unless you figure a way to make an actual reducing pantograph of it).  Or, or .  do they make laser line levels that measure the distance?

Then it is just a matter of writing down some numbers show on a screen -  like the stick version without the interpolation.

 

Hi Jaager, thank you for your answer, what do you mean by doing a jig out of 2x4´s - as a U shape? Not sure if I get you here and what do you mean by a sliding yard stick? Mabye I´m lost right now or lost in translation (English is not my mothers tongue - that`s German)

Also what are the NRJ CD´s? I hope it´s not an US thingy because then I might have issues to get those. I still have a pantgraph, not sure if it will be good enough for the project or if I should get a newer one lol... I´m sure you get laser levels that measure distances but not sure. I think the Milwaukee one will do it, I´ve tons of 18V (privately) and 12V (by the company) tools, would be not so bad to buy such a laser level (always wanted one - don´t ask, I like having tools lol).

 

Quote

In your place, I would just go to school on all this - making sure my bites were not too ambitious and then when I felt confident enough to scratch build a modern luxury yacht model, pick one that does have available lines.  Then show Magnus Rassy the celebration of his design that he missed.  If you have not caught an entirely different bug - after you have gotten a deeper view of the possibilities in all this. 

 

As sad as it sounds, I was already thinking to start with another modern yacht where the manufacturer might be more cooperative than Hallberg Rassy. Unfortunately that´s the yacht I love and always would like to have (always had good experiences with HR yachts in the past - much older models, to be fair). But yes, was thinking to ask manufacturers like Amel or Beneteau if they would support or project like that and start with one of theirs.

Never thought about the point to face Magnus with that afterwards but I think it´s a good idea.

 

What I just don´t understand is why they don´t support such projects, it just requires some contract that makes me not giving away the blueprints and some other points and it would be fine. Even a company like Mercedes Benz gave me their blueprints (don´t ask me about the size of them) of their buses and coaches, I built once a 1:10 model of the Citation Liner. Was no bother, I even got the login for a builders contract. Means I get all the news and changes if they change anything during production. So I don´t get the policy of HR but I have to live with it. But maybe when I do a really good job and then send Magnus a model of it, maybe he changes his mind then... thank you for this nice "advise".

 

Micha

[Jaager]

1 hour ago, Scottish Guy said:

what do you mean by doing a jig out of 2x4´s - as a U shape? Not sure if I get you here and what do you mean by a sliding yard stick?

 

You wrote "scanner".    Since you are only doing this the one time, I am suggesting that low tech and more time consuming may be a more practical option.

Now that I re-read what I wrote - maybe "L" shape is more accurate. The boat gets in the way of the inside leg of a "U".  Maybe just high enough to butt against the keel.

 

Look at a set of lines for any vessel.  Profile,  Plane (WL),  Body . 

Now, for traditional POF - the Body plan is almost irrelevant.  The most important is WL.   The profile has the buttock lines - which are only really useful at the ends.

 

The Body plan is the cross section at each station. *   The stations are the midline of a bend.  (A bend is a pair of frames with overlapping butts.)  A Hahn style framing (plot the outside shape of every other bend) does not need the shape at the midline.  A loft every frame method can use a station shape - but there are 200-400 shapes and maybe 24 station shapes - so only a little helpful.

 

For a boat, built using a mold plug,   The Body plan is 90% of what is needed.   You need to replicate the Body plan - using as many station intervals as you think that you will need. 

You need a jig to measure the cross section at every station.   A wooden X-Y graph.  Like a piece of graph paper- but 3D.   And able to move along the Z axis.    The keel is X=0  Y=0.     You need to measure X at Y=1',  Y=2' , Y=3'......     maybe at 6" intervals is you are compulsive.   You need a fixed, known distance Y  outside the widest part of the hull - so that the graph will fit.   The longer than a  yard stick (with a line level bubble) sits at Y=1' and how far it is from the keel is the X value there.  You could drive a fence post at every station interval, but a movable jig seems more practical.

 

 

* The mold loft used the Body plan.  They expanded the 1:48 drawing to a 1:1 chalk line on the floor of a barn sized room.  Made patterns from that shape and added marks for the lines of the frames between the stations.  200 patterns - one for each frame - would have been insane.  Besides, the shipwrights that actually shaped the frames would not have been pleased about being told how to do their jobs by the mold loft gang.  Now, when frames became iron and then steel, an adz does not work so well. (I use a method that mimics the mold loft.)

 

Edited April 4 by Jaager

[Scottish Guy]

29 minutes ago, Jaager said:

You wrote "scanner".    Since you are only doing this the one time, I am suggesting that low tech and more time consuming may be a more practical option.

Now that I re-read what I wrote - maybe "L" shape is more accurate. The boat gets in the way of the inside leg of a "U".  Maybe just high enough to butt against the keel.

 

Thank you so much for the detailed answer. You know that I declared you right now as my personal mentor in doing that hull / yacht lol... I hope you agree. I think this will become a pretty nice journey... unfortunately maybe also a long one. Some skills I have to learn first but I`m a determend and quick learner. I will try to build such a jig frame. Will be only roughly one meter, so should be fine. Gladly the garage is empty (the Volvo doesn´t fit in lol) so there will be enough space for the yacht model build.

 

I still don´t know what CD´s you are talking about. I will give uncle Google a go and will google for NRJ CD´s.

 

Micha

[Scottish Guy]

4 hours ago, Jaager said:

Get the NRJ CD's and find the older articles on taking off lines from a half hull model.  Except getting a pantograph tracing of the cross section curve

would be too large (unless you figure a way to make an actual reducing pantograph of it).  Or, or .  do they make laser line levels that measure the distance?

 

Now I know what the NRJ CD´s are lol... NRJ = Nautical Research Journal form the NRG... looks like I`m a bit slow sometimes lol

[Bob Cleek]

4 hours ago, Scottish Guy said:

As sad as it sounds, I was already thinking to start with another modern yacht where the manufacturer might be more cooperative than Hallberg Rassy. Unfortunately, that´s the yacht I love and always would like to have (always had good experiences with HR yachts in the past - much older models, to be fair). But yes, was thinking to ask manufacturers like Amel or Beneteau if they would support or project like that and start with one of theirs.

Never thought about the point to face Magnus with that afterwards but I think it´s a good idea.

 

What I just don´t understand is why they don´t support such projects, it just requires some contract that makes me not giving away the blueprints and some other points and it would be fine. Even a company like Mercedes Benz gave me their blueprints (don´t ask me about the size of them) of their buses and coaches, I built once a 1:10 model of the Citation Liner. Was no bother, I even got the login for a builders contract. Means I get all the news and changes if they change anything during production. So I don´t get the policy of HR but I have to live with it. But maybe when I do a really good job and then send Magnus a model of it, maybe he changes his mind then... thank you for this nice "advise".

Don't hold your breath waiting for a naval architect to provide you gratis with the only thing he has to sell.  You are no more likely to find another modern yacht designer to provide you with offsets and/or lines of their designs than you have been with HR. What you are asking for is the designer's "stock in trade." This is their intellectual property and if you want it, the best you can do is hope they might sell it to you in a "study plan" form suitable only for building a reasonably accurate scale model.  (In some cases, design firms will sell "licenses to build" models in the same manner as a license to build a full-size boat, but very rarely will they release the actual table of offsets essential to building an accurate full-size boat. (See: Model Plans – Laurent Giles Archive ) "(S)ome contract that makes me not giving away the blueprints and some other points and it would be fine." isn't sufficient because once "the genie is out of the bottle," it can't be put back into the bottle again.  What you are seeking is the information essential to producing the yacht they've designed and once that information is released, anybody can build one for themselves without paying the designer a dime for it. Surely that eventuality is somewhat far-fetched in the case of a fiberglass production hull, but after working for a yacht brokerage, I can attest to more than a few "pirated" designs which made their manufacturers a lot more money than they ever did the original designer. (A couple of prime examples being the several fiberglass knockoffs of L.F. Herreshoff's famed H-28 design and the once popular Westsail 32 cruising yacht.) Some of these "pirates" even went so far as to invoke the name of the original naval architect in their advertisements. In other cases, buyers opted to purchase the knockoffs instead of the originals knowing they were pirated copies at a lower price without any need for the pirates to advertise that fact. You are expecting the designer to provide you with all that he has to sell and so you get the same sort of reaction you'd get from asking Coca Cola for the secret recipe for their soft drink!  I know your expectation is entirely innocent, but from the design firm's perspective, their "lack of cooperation," as you perceive it, is entirely understandable. 

 

14 hours ago, Scottish Guy said:

I contacted Magnus Rassy already and they don´t give any additional sources as that are publicly available already. No blueprints, no more 3D pictures / models of the yacht.

Therefore, I won´t get any more details as I have already. If you tell me it is not possible this way I need to find another way to reproduce the hull by maybe wait till I find a yacht lifted out and scan the hull (don´t know if there are scanners I can afford that could scan an entire 57ft yacht) or I run out of options here and sacrifice the details and just make a hull close to the origin instead of keeping it as correct as possible.

 

On 4/3/2024 at 7:17 AM, Scottish Guy said:

I´m still figuring out how to bring this all together to get a proper shape of the hull but I know there must be a way.

I think it's highly unlikely that you will find a way to get a proper representation of this hull, legally at least, because the designer is not only "uncooperative" in responding to your request for it, but also because nearly every yacht designer who wishes to assert a proprietary interest in their intellectual property will intentionally take steps to effectively withhold information essential to the use of their work product in order to protect their rights to their work. I understand that this particular design "is the yacht you love," but, as often as not, love is unrequited. If it's any consolation, yachts with which we fall in love are like streetcars: there will always be another along in fifteen minutes.  

 

I suppose you could take the lines off of one of these boats when it was hauled, (There's technology for doing that these days short of taking hundreds of individual measurements by hand.) but only you can decide if that is worth the effort and expense involved, assuming that you can find someone to permit you to do so. I am not a CAD wonk, so I don't know if it is so, but I think intuitively, if not factually, that it should be possible to find a CAD program that will optically digest all the data points available from the various depictions you do have, modify all of them to the same scale, and conduct a matrix analysis of those points to obtain as complete as possible a digital definition of the shape, supplementing this structure with interpolated data points where the same are missing and thus produce as accurate a hull shape as what data you have permits. But that's about it as far as accuracy goes. Otherwise, it seems you'll just have to pine away and mourn your unrequited love until such time as the next object of your affection comes along. Keep in mind that if your lust is excited only by modern designs, I think you will find the same obstacle with any of them that you've found with the HR design presently being considered. Should your tastes expand beyond the "modern," so also will your choices, since in times past there were designers who wrote for either historical purposes, such as Howard Chapelle and Harold Underhill, or for publication in books and periodicals of the day catering to home builders, such as John and William Atkin and L. Francis Herreshoff, and therefore provided the tables of offsets for such designs as they intended to be in the public domain and used for non-commercial purposes. 

 

Your determination is admirable. I expect most everyone who builds ship models has run aground on the same shoals you have. It seems to go with the territory. It is always interesting to conduct mind exercises of the same nature as this one, but in reality, there is very little new under the sun when it comes to ships and the sea because pushing a solid through a liquid is elementally limited by the immutable laws of physics. Probably as far back as man ever set about traveling upon the sea, one fellow was trying to figure out how it was that another's log canoe was faster than his and the faster log canoe hewer was trying to keep his secret to himself so as to retain the advantage of his design. I don't think we've progressed any further from that point to this day. As Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations." Other's may still have better ideas which haven't occurred to me, but until one of those comes along, I think you've reached the point where you're just "flogging the poodle" here. Your options are to just forge ahead and build the best-guess model you can make of what this boat looks like below the waterline, knowing it can never be anything more accurate than your best guess, and enjoy the process and the result, ... or not, and move on to another boat that can be accurately modeled, if that is your intention. Never forget that whatever we fall in love with we must take as it is, "warts and all." Any infatuation that is predicated upon a belief that we can change the flaws inherent in the way we found the object of our love is inevitably destined to end in disappointment, be it boats or anything else. 

[Scottish Guy]

27 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

Don't hold your breath waiting for a naval architect to provide you gratis with the only thing he has to sell.  You are no more likely to find another modern yacht designer to provide you with offsets and/or lines of their designs than you have been with HR. What you are asking for is the designer's "stock in trade." This is their intellectual property and if you want it, the best you can do is hope they might sell it to you in a "study plan" form suitable only for building a reasonably accurate scale model.

 

I surely get your point and I completely understand your point and their stand. I´m just wondering because Mercedes Benz gave away their blueprints of the bus models they produce, just the drawings, no wiring or any other data, just dimensions, exact drawings of everything, so I had still to guess where exactly the pneumatic is set to open doors or so, but I got highly detailed blueprints of dimensions and all measurements required to build litterally a brnad new bus (which is not that easy though). The blueprints have been in DIN A0 and I still have them, was a huge folder with at least 15 drawings and blueprints, some even with detail drawings of the mechanisms of the door openers or axles.
 

So yes, I get the point a but it still is a personal choice of the manufacturer / designer to hand over the blueprints. Surely, Mercedes Benz has more than one designer and I had to file a lot of data to Mercedes Benz before I got sent the folder with all the blueprints. Two meetings and lots of paperwork, but it was possible.

Maybe I should ask German Frers (the designer) if they do a licensed version or something like that. Even if I don´t see the chances of that. The design is already 5 or 6 years old but unfortunately the newest edition, the HR69 looks pretty close to the HR57, so I think the design is still pretty on point. But would maybe a chance... if not... it will become a guessing game ^^

 

Micha

[xanthar]

@Jaager Which volume of the CDs would have that information?

[Bob Cleek]

4 hours ago, Scottish Guy said:

Maybe I should ask German Frers (the designer) if they do a licensed version or something like that.

That might be worth a shot. I'm sure there are contractual restrictions between German Frers and HR concerning disclosure of design details, but German Frers may be the one who held onto control of that distribution. I'd suggest approaching them as a ship modeler wishing to build a model of the design and ask if there is a way they can provide you with information sufficient to base a model on without compromising any intellectual property interests they may have. I don't know exactly how they do it, but most naval architects do produce what they call "study plans" of their designs which, while appearing to provide details of hull shapes, are not exactly accurate in ways that preserve the confidentiality of their actual work. Often, these "study plans" are sufficient to produce adequately accurate details for modeling use. You may get lucky and be able to obtain a "study plan" of this vessel from the actual design firm that drew it.

[Jaager]

2 hours ago, xanthar said:

Which volume of the CDs would have that information?

Here is what I have thru 1995  - my database program became obsolete and life changed - so nothing after 1995:

 

A METHOD OF TAKING THE LINES OFF SMALL BOATS
MACKEAN,RAY   
MODEL SHIPWRIGHT
1990
74
40-44
NA BOAT TECHNIQUE

 

TAKING OFF LINES
RUBIN,NORMAN N
NAUTICAL RESEARCH JOURNAL
1971
18
16-18   
TIP NA  

 

A METHOD FOR TAKING THE LINES OFF A HALF-MODEL
SCHOCK,EDSON
NAUTICAL RESEARCH JOURNAL
1971
18
225-228  
TECHNIQUE NA

 

AN EXPERIMENT IN TAKING OFF LINES
WEGNER,DANA M
NAUTICAL RESEARCH JOURNAL
1974
20
149-155  
TIP TECHNIQUE NA

 

TAKING OFF HULL LINES
NEVARD,LANCE  
SHIPS IN SCALE  
1984
8  
29-31
NA TECHNIQUE

 

TAKING OFF BOAT LINES
HANCOCK,CLIFFORD H
NAUTICAL RESEARCH JOURNAL
1981
27
195-203  
NA BOAT

 

TAKING LINES OFF AN EXISTING MODELS - A MEDIUM TECH SOLUTION   
PARISER,DANIEL
NAUTICAL RESEARCH JOURNAL
1995
40
128-131  
17TH YACHT NA TIP TECHNIQUE

 

 

[Bob Cleek]

This thread seems to have reached the level of sophistication where this short video of how N.G. Herreshoff measured the offsets from the carved half-hull models he initially created as the basis of each of his designs. It works great for a half-hull model-sized subject. Obviously, it would be rather cumbersome to build the instrument he used for the scale models he carved! While he used a geared dial measuring device, I expect a similar device with a scale on the measuring bars would work as well, albeit with less speed. All in all, it's a great illustration of how a table of offsets works. (The speaker is using a laser pointer and you have to look closely to see it on the screen in the video.)

 

 

[Scottish Guy]

3 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

I don't know exactly how they do it, but most naval architects do produce what they call "study plans" of their designs which, while appearing to provide details of hull shapes, are not exactly accurate in ways that preserve the confidentiality of their actual work. Often, these "study plans" are sufficient to produce adequately accurate details for modeling use. You may get lucky and be able to obtain a "study plan" of this vessel from the actual design firm that drew it.

 

I should have waited till your answer would have appeared lol, I wrote already to German Frers, since they might be the onces as designers, to keep the rights on the plans. Unfortunately I didn´t know that they keep or have "study" plans. We will see if and how they answer. Sent the email out last night. The are based in Argentina, so they should have been awake as I sent the email. Magnus was pretty quick with answering, we will see how quick the are.

 

The waiting game begins...

[Scottish Guy]

3 hours ago, Jaager said:

Here is what I have thru 1995  - my database program became obsolete and life changed - so nothing after 1995:

 

Thank you a lot Jaager, that´s more than I would have expected. This will be a big help.

[bricklayer]

Hi Micha,

the key word for measuring physical items to create digital or virtual copies of their surface is photogrammetry.

The link to an article on wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photogrammetry

I remember having read an article on this subject in the quarterly publication of Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau, das logbuch  issue 2023/1.

The link to their website:

https://www.arbeitskreis-historischer-schiffbau.de/logbuch/logbuch-archiv/2020-2029/lg-2023-1/

 

This technique seems to work fine, if only you follow the rules.

There`s alot that you have to take care of to obtain reliable and accurate results.

Hundreds of shots are required. I don`t think that you`ll manage to do it on a boat that`s exposed on a fair like boot in Dusseldorf or elsewhere.

 

You`d better go for a boat whose full set of lines is available to public. Just my 2 €-cents, not necessarily your opinion.

 

Michael 

 

[Scottish Guy]

Hi folks,

 

a wee update. I talked to the local copy shop guy. We checked the pictures I can provide and he is convinced that he can create prints in the scale 1:20. Meaning he can print the pictures to a size (872 mm). I hope that this would be enough to create a plug (carving by taaking measurement every 2 mm) out of foam (styrodur). We will see how far I can get with this.

I know it might not be the most accurate way to get the shape of the hull, but at the moment it is the only way I have available.

 

I know there is a HR57 and two HR50 in Brighton Marina, unfortunately both not on a hard stand but in the water. Right now I don´t have the time and fundings to travel down to have a check on those. SInce the designer of the yachts (German Frers) doesn´t answer my email as well there is not much options left.

 

We will see where I can go from there...

 

Micha