18th Century Iron nails

[tmj]

 Has anyone ever heard of 18th century iron nails being dipped into tar, or pitch prior to being 'driven-in' for purposes of corrosion/rust control... as well as additional water-tight integrity of a ship's hull?  

Edited June 29 by tmj

[BANYAN]

News to me but an interesting idea/practice.  I am researching in the 19th century and have not yet come across this, but I have not really been looking.  If I find anything I will get back to you.

 

cheers

 

pat

[Keith Black]

Informative read;

 

https://cbaisan.ltrr.arizona.edu/Florida/Florida_wreck_timber002.pdf

 

 A mere mention but a possible lead;

 

https://forums.ybw.com/threads/pitch-in-bilges-and-iron-nails.96787/

 

 Off topic but interesting;

 

https://maritime.org/conf/conf-goodwin.php

[tmj]

7 hours ago, Keith Black said:

Informative read;

There are pages skipped in the link that you gave me. Is there a reason for that?

I've added this book to my Amazon shopping cart and will pull the trigger on it if it is a 'complete' and worthy read.    

[Keith Black]

2 hours ago, tmj said:

There are pages skipped in the link that you gave me. Is there a reason for that?

 Unknown, the link is as it was when I came across it when I researched your request. They probably didn't want all the milk to be free? 

[tmj]

34 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

Unknown, the link is as it was when I came across it when I researched your request. They probably didn't want all the milk to be free? 

Got it Keith! The missing pages trap was well baited... and I think I'll bite. Should be very informative in its entirety.  

[Keith Black]

29 minutes ago, tmj said:

Should be very informative in its entirety.

 It looked very promising. From the bit I read it would seem that nail heads would not have been visible on a ship's hull due to being tarred and plugged. Is that the way you read that? I hope you do a review once received.

[tmj]

18 hours ago, Keith Black said:

It looked very promising. From the bit I read it would seem that nail heads would not have been visible on a ship's hull due to being tarred and plugged. Is that the way you read that? I hope you do a review once received.

That's the way that I read it also, however. I'm also really interested in reading what is mentioned on all those missing pages. 

[tmj]

On 7/1/2024 at 7:32 PM, Keith Black said:

I hope you do a review once received.

I decided to purchase the 'Kindle' version. While I typically prefer hard copies of books, my bookshelves are now all overloaded because of that desire. I have books lying flat atop of 'other' books that are properly standing upright in my bookcases. Old age and a lifetime of collecting has finally caught up with me. I'm now forced to join the 'digital' age in order to keep collecting books *sigh*. That's okay, I guess, as information is just that no matter what form it comes in... but I'm having a hard time accepting it. A hard copy book has tangible physical characteristics, a nice-looking cover, pages that one can slip a bookmark in between... and also a distinct 'smell' that I find to grow more and more pleasant as a book continues to age. Computer books have none of that kind of character. They are nothing but electron blips on a plastic screen! 😔     

 

I'll give it a review, of sorts, once I've gone over its content.

Edited July 3 by tmj

[Keith Black]

 I once plied the waters down there where you live, born in Dallas in 47. We retired to Michigan in 13.

[tmj]

18 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

I once plied the waters down there where you live, born in Dallas in 47. We retired to Michigan in 13.

I was actually raised in Midland (Texas), hot and dry as a bone. Didn't feel bad at all. I left Midland for the Navy in 1979. I've now been living in Dallas for 14 years. Dallas is nothing like Midland, Texas. It's so hot and humid here in Dallas... Michigan sounds pretty darned good to me too! 

Edited July 3 by tmj

[Keith Black]

 When we left Texas for Michigan we were living in North Dallas. I grew up in Arlington as a kid and of course we didn't have air conditioning, just a few fans. I remember sleeping in front of the screen door trying to get some relief from the heat. God forsaken country, 94/95 degrees at 3 AM. that's just stupid hot. 

 

 My wife was from Michigan and when she said she wanted to retire up here I was all for it. Tomorrow, high of 84 and low of 64. There, at 4 am 84 degrees. 

Edited July 4 by Keith Black

[Chuck Seiler]

On 7/2/2024 at 12:09 PM, tmj said:

On 7/1/2024 at 5:32 PM, Keith Black said:

It looked very promising. From the bit I read it would seem that nail heads would not have been visible on a ship's hull due to being tarred and plugged. Is that the way you read that? I hope you do a review once received.

That's the way that I read it also, however. I'm also really interested in reading what is mentioned on all those missing pages.

That may be true in most circumstances, and in many cases they would use tree nails, but the Philadelphia is a cow of a different color.  They were not worried about iron corrosion or wood deterioration.  They knew the vessels would not be around long enough  for that to be a concern.  They WERE concern about getting the flotilla built and underway as soon as possible.   

[tmj]

9 hours ago, Chuck Seiler said:

That may be true in most circumstances, and in many cases they would use tree nails, but the Philadelphia is a cow of a different color.  They were not worried about iron corrosion or wood deterioration.  They knew the vessels would not be around long enough  for that to be a concern.  They WERE concern about getting the flotilla built and underway as soon as possible.

Hi Chuck!

This thread isn't targeting the Philidelphia. It's a general question. While poking around 'somewhere', I stumbled upon something (can't remember what/where) that made brief mention of iron nails being dipped in tar, or pitch to better seal things up. I'm just trying to find out if such a thing was ever truly done, or maybe just done on a particular vessel or few. Sounds like a lot of extra messy work to me, with little benefit. Learning a bit more about ships fastenings is something that I need to do, in general. 

 

As for the Philidelphia, I'm currently trying to figure out a way to either make, or 'fake' square headed nails at proper scale dimensions. At 1:24 scale, the square heads will be noticeable. I have a couple of ideas but haven't tried any of them yet.   

Edited July 4 by tmj

[Chuck Seiler]

Ooops.  Sorry. 

 

For another project, I am planning on using 3/64" x 3/64" boxwood as a precursor for treenails.  I will round them down using my Dremel.  Perhaps doing that, but leaving a small bit of unrounded square part exposed (dyed or painted black) would do it.

 

By my calculation, that would result in a scale 1.125" wide nailhead.

Edited July 4 by Chuck Seiler

[Keith Black]

 Chuck, at scale would a 1.125 nailhead be visible? Of course it depends on what scale you'll be working in. I see too many extremely well built models with fine wood details only to be spoiled (IMHO) with treenails/nails/spikes that are visibly out of scale. One can't see the plugs on a wood deck standing ten feet away. 

 

 Once again, IMHO, new builders see a great model done by an older/experienced hand done with treenails so they think they need to follow suit and out comes the pencil. They're try to replicate treenails with a pencil because their skill level doesn't allow them to actually make treenails to scale and in the end they make a dog's lunch out the task.

 

 It seems to me to be fashion and builder's preference.   

[tmj]

Something just caught my eye on the Philidelphia. This post 'does' concern that boat!

Looking at the Smithsonian's online 3D scan of the Philidelphia's sides... those nails are 'not' square headed nails! They are flat 'Cut' nails! Take a look at the Smithsonian's 3D model. The nail heads are elongated/rectangular running in a fore/aft direction, with the grain of the wood. That is exactly the proper orientation of a correctly placed 'Cut' nail! "Hmm? I can't believe that I missed this up until now, but I did! This new observation may have just made my "Make it or Fake it" job a whole lot easier!  

[Chuck Seiler]

7 hours ago, Keith Black said:

Chuck, at scale would a 1.125 nailhead be visible?

Keith,

    Tom is working at is 1: 24 IIRC.  That would be 3/64" across.

[Keith Black]

9 hours ago, Chuck Seiler said:

That would be 3/64" across.

 Equals .047, rounded up. At 1:24 a fastener would be visible at arms length viewing distance but replicating a fastener head detail would be a tall order. I admire Tom's detail work on replicating caulking seams but that's a running length, not a single point.  

 

 Tom, it'll be interesting seeing your solution.