ClipperFan Posted July 26 Share #151 Posted July 26 12 minutes ago, rwiederrich said: Riiight. While you're at it...can you tell me the length of the Stadhound.....much like Atheana? 7ft? or so? Rob @rwiederrich Rob, what? You've never heard of negative space? As I said, that's the real impression I got from looking a photos of the front fascia. I'll look again. Still, even if they were projections, they would only be slight and wouldn't interfere with anything. As for the figurehead, from memory it's supposed to be 7 feet. There's a scale on my original sketch so you can double check it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwiederrich Posted July 26 Author Share #152 Posted July 26 11 minutes ago, ClipperFan said: @Luis Felipe good catch on those winches. Maybe Rob can let us know if these would have been installed on fore and main masts. That particular item isn't illustrated on the mizzen, so it makes me wonder if it had to do with the smaller yardarms on the mizzen? Rich..it was I who noticed these on Chapelle's drawing. Unlike British clippers that had large deck winches before the fore and main masts...American clippers tended to use other means to lift heavy items. I'm gathering that these drawings of Champelle are something similar to the image I presented. Makes sense. Rob Quote Current build: Build log: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25382-glory-of-the-seas-medium-clipper-1869-by-rwiederrich-196 Finished build: Build log: of 1/128th Great Republic: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13740-great-republic-by-rwiederrich-four-masted-extreme-clipper-1853/# Current build(On hold): Build log: 1/96 Donald McKay:http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4522-donald-mckay-medium-clipper-by-rwiederrich-1855/ Completed build: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/gallery/album/475-196-cutty-sark-plastic/ The LORD said, "See, I have set (them) aside...with skills of all kinds, to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver, and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of crafts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwiederrich Posted July 26 Author Share #153 Posted July 26 4 minutes ago, ClipperFan said: @rwiederrich Rob, what? You've never heard of negative space? As I said, that's the real impression I got from looking a photos of the front fascia. I'll look again. Still, even if they were projections, they would only be slight and wouldn't interfere with anything. As for the figurehead, from memory it's supposed to be 7 feet. There's a scale on my original sketch so you can double check it. Your drawing did not include the fife rail from the front....and its insertion into the portico. I was wondering if that would interfere with the pillars? Rob Quote Current build: Build log: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25382-glory-of-the-seas-medium-clipper-1869-by-rwiederrich-196 Finished build: Build log: of 1/128th Great Republic: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13740-great-republic-by-rwiederrich-four-masted-extreme-clipper-1853/# Current build(On hold): Build log: 1/96 Donald McKay:http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4522-donald-mckay-medium-clipper-by-rwiederrich-1855/ Completed build: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/gallery/album/475-196-cutty-sark-plastic/ The LORD said, "See, I have set (them) aside...with skills of all kinds, to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver, and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of crafts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClipperFan Posted July 26 Share #154 Posted July 26 26 minutes ago, rwiederrich said: Your drawing did not include the fife rail from the front....and its insertion into the portico. I was wondering if that would interfere with the pillars? Rob Rob, The front view only shows the rail itself, since the turned rail stanchions are a few feet away, there wasn't enough room to illustrate them. Side view is where you would see them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwiederrich Posted July 26 Author Share #155 Posted July 26 3 minutes ago, ClipperFan said: Rob, The front view only shows the rail itself, since the turned rail stanchions are a few feet away, there wasn't enough room to illustrate them. Side view is where you would see them too. Oh no, not the railing itself...but the mizzen fife rail or pin rail. Did you draw a forward image with the fife pin rail in place showing where it inserts into the portico front...and possibly where you might include those pillars? Rob Quote Current build: Build log: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25382-glory-of-the-seas-medium-clipper-1869-by-rwiederrich-196 Finished build: Build log: of 1/128th Great Republic: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13740-great-republic-by-rwiederrich-four-masted-extreme-clipper-1853/# Current build(On hold): Build log: 1/96 Donald McKay:http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4522-donald-mckay-medium-clipper-by-rwiederrich-1855/ Completed build: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/gallery/album/475-196-cutty-sark-plastic/ The LORD said, "See, I have set (them) aside...with skills of all kinds, to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver, and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of crafts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClipperFan Posted July 26 Share #156 Posted July 26 1 hour ago, rwiederrich said: Oh no, not the railing itself...but the mizzen fife rail or pin rail. Did you draw a forward image with the fife pin rail in place showing where it inserts into the portico front...and possibly where you might include those pillars? Rob @rwiederrich to be honest, it was late last night that I decided to pause work and share my progress. As a result. I forgot to include the mizzen fife rail front view. I did mention the sketch was "in progress." My apologies for the confusion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClipperFan Posted July 26 Share #157 Posted July 26 Just now, ClipperFan said: @Luis Felipe Thanks for this find. Most of it is a duplicate of the Boston Daily Atlas with some added observations. Maybe I missed it but I didn't find a mention of the 6 ft fore rake of the stem or 2 ft aft rake of the sternpost. That added 2 feet in the stern, makes a difference of the poop deck front being an accurate 7 feet away from the mizzenmast instead of an inaccurate 5 feet away. Meanwhile Rob and I discussed a 39" vs 30" outer keel projecting clear of the garboards. Since the total depth of keel, including shoe is described as being 46" then a 39" outer keel means the inner one would have to be a mere 7"! That simply doesn't make sense. However, an external 30" keel leaves room for a 16" inner one. I also reviewed all handwritten notes by Henry Hall and found no mention of a 39" keel. The body plan in this article looks very close to other body plans. On the other hand, bow and stern appear too stylized. Contrast them to the Cornelius McKay model, which is far more precise, in my observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClipperFan Posted July 26 Share #158 Posted July 26 4 hours ago, Luis Felipe said: Als o, I try to compare the lines of the several references, pls forgive my poor use of digital tools. The lines are those of the Monthly Nautical Magazine, Chapelle, & Crotters. More or less the lines somehow coincide. @Luis Felipe you and @Vladimir_Wairoa are both working on the same project and doing beautiful computer work. I noticed that an overlay of the McKay model is missing. So I've re-posted Vlad's overlay of that Cornelius McKay Stag Hound model bow. We've determined it's the most accurate rendition of this ship. That's due to historic provenance provided by McKay's own son. He confirms that his large 4' 8 & 1/4ths" 1:48th scale hull model was built from his father's mould lines directly off the lofting floor as the ship herself was under construction. Missing on his model is a 30" lower keel and 18" upper monkey rail, as well as an 18" splashrail. While a drawing done by Cornelius also exists, which might have a body plan too, I have yet to find it. Thanks again for your helpful contributions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted July 26 Share #159 Posted July 26 I read that at 16" wide (sided). Two pieces: upper 20" high (moulded) and the lower 12"high. Total 32". Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClipperFan Posted July 27 Share #160 Posted July 27 13 minutes ago, druxey said: I read that at 16" wide (sided). Two pieces: upper 20" high (moulded) and the lower 12"high. Total 32". @druxey That can't possibly be the 1850 extreme clipper Stag Hound as it's settled fact that her keel was actually moulded 46". The vessel you're reading about is a much smaller ship with a 14" shallower keel. I repeatedly go back to the December 21, 1850 Boston Daily Atlas article, written by publicist Duncan McLean. It's obvious from the wealth of construction specifics that they were supplied to him directly by his close friend Donald McKay and his shipyard. "Her depth of keel is 46 inches, dead rise at half floor 40 inches, rounding of sides 4 inches, and sheer 2 feet 6 inches." Later in the same article, McLean repeats this fact: "Her keel is of rock maple and oak, in two depths, which, combined with the shoe moulds 46 inches and sides 16." Thanks to the Cornelius McKay letter, we know the exterior depth of keel was 30" as he specifically says that's the precise dimension which should be added to his fine model. That leaves 16" for the internal keel. We've determined a 39" keel must be a transcription error as that leaves only an impossible 7" for internal keel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwiederrich Posted July 27 Author Share #161 Posted July 27 Good work everyone. We’ll I began making chips,…….we’ll small chips. I carved the Staghound figurehead. Here are some pics druxey, FriedClams, rybakov and 3 others 6 Quote Current build: Build log: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25382-glory-of-the-seas-medium-clipper-1869-by-rwiederrich-196 Finished build: Build log: of 1/128th Great Republic: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13740-great-republic-by-rwiederrich-four-masted-extreme-clipper-1853/# Current build(On hold): Build log: 1/96 Donald McKay:http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4522-donald-mckay-medium-clipper-by-rwiederrich-1855/ Completed build: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/gallery/album/475-196-cutty-sark-plastic/ The LORD said, "See, I have set (them) aside...with skills of all kinds, to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver, and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of crafts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted July 27 Share #162 Posted July 27 Ah! "...with the shoe moulds 46 inches..." that/those are the false keel(s). So, 46 - 32 = 14". Not unreasonable to have a double false keel in 7" thicknesses. Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClipperFan Posted July 27 Share #163 Posted July 27 10 hours ago, rwiederrich said: Good work everyone. We’ll I began making chips,…….we’ll small chips. I carved the Staghound figurehead. Here are some pics @rwiederrich Rob, Wow! now THAT'S a Stag Hound!! So, to be 7 scale feet, that's 7/8ths inches long. Amazing carving at such a tiny scale. I can't wait to see her in gilded gold. Snug Harbor Johnny and uscharin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClipperFan Posted July 27 Share #164 Posted July 27 (edited) 9 hours ago, druxey said: Ah! "...with the shoe moulds 46 inches..." that/those are the false keel(s). So, 46 - 32 = 14". Not unreasonable to have a double false keel in 7" thicknesses. @druxey Now you have me even more curious. If you don't mind, can you share the source you're getting these figures from? It sounds like you're saying the outer keel was 32" including double false keels of 14" total, making her outer keel 18" (+ 14" double shoes; false keels) for a total 32" beyond garboards and her inner one 14" for a combined total of 46"? Everything I've found refers to a 39" keel beyond garboards, yet still maintains 46" total. That would make the inner one 7" which I find too thin. Handwritten notes by Hall (shared excerpts of; including sobco.com site link) show no such 39" outer keel mentioned. That leads me to conclude the Cornelius McKay stipulation of 30" to be most reasonable. 32" only adds 2" but I'd just like to know the source of those figures. Edited July 27 by ClipperFan additional information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick310 Posted July 27 Share #165 Posted July 27 Beautiful figurehead Rob!! Incredibly well done!! Rick FriedClams 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwiederrich Posted July 27 Author Share #166 Posted July 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rick310 said: 1 hour ago, Rick310 said: Beautiful figurehead Rob!! Incredibly well done!! Rick Thanks. I’m going to work on the jaw, ears and make some corrections next. once done I will guild or paint her and leaver her on her mounting. I’ll remove her just before adding her to the cut water. When I get there. Like I did with Glory of the Seas, I’ll begin making the railing stanchions now too. I like to get as much detail work out of the way while I wait for hull conclusions. Rob Edited July 27 by rwiederrich Glen McGuire and FriedClams 2 Quote Current build: Build log: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25382-glory-of-the-seas-medium-clipper-1869-by-rwiederrich-196 Finished build: Build log: of 1/128th Great Republic: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13740-great-republic-by-rwiederrich-four-masted-extreme-clipper-1853/# Current build(On hold): Build log: 1/96 Donald McKay:http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4522-donald-mckay-medium-clipper-by-rwiederrich-1855/ Completed build: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/gallery/album/475-196-cutty-sark-plastic/ The LORD said, "See, I have set (them) aside...with skills of all kinds, to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver, and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of crafts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted July 27 Share #167 Posted July 27 Rich: re post #164, I took this quote from post #119, first page of the manuscript at the top. Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClipperFan Posted July 27 Share #168 Posted July 27 2 hours ago, druxey said: Rich: re post #164, I took this quote from post #119, first page of the manuscript at the top. @druxey the heading of the second two pages, after the title, handwritten refer specifically to the clipper ship Donald McKay. After that, it changes to a spread outline, where it's important to follow the narrative on the top left column. Honestly, this introduces even more confusion. Unless I'm reading it wrong, the sequence goes upper keel, lower keel, shoe. For Stag Hound figures are 20", 12" & 4 & 1/2".... which means beyond her garboards, including shoe, her outer keel would have been 16 & 1/2"... Meanwhile the total of all 3 components are 36 & 1/2" not 46" as recorder and publicized by McLean. To avoid getting even further "in the weeds" my recommendation is stick to Cornelius McKay's 30".... druxey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithAug Posted July 27 Share #169 Posted July 27 20 hours ago, rwiederrich said: I carved the Staghound figurehead. Beautifully done. Does fido have a name? FriedClams 1 Quote Keith Current Build:- Cangarda (Steam Yacht) - Scale 1:24 Previous Builds:- Schooner Germania (Nova) - Scale 1:36 https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19848-schooner-germania-nova-by-keithaug-scale-136-1908-2011/ Schooner Altair by KeithAug - Scale 1:32 - 1931 http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/12515-schooner-altair-by-keithaug-scale-132-1931/?p=378702 J Class Endeavour by KeithAug - Amati - Scale 1:35 - 1989 after restoration. http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/10752-j-class-endeavour-by-keithaug-amati-scale-135-1989-after-restoration/?p=325029 Other Topics Nautical Adventures http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13727-nautical-adventures/?p=422846 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snug Harbor Johnny Posted July 27 Share #170 Posted July 27 There's a racing dog like that on the sides of Greyhound buses ... better in 3D. Quote Completed builds: Khufu Solar Barge - 1:72 Woody Joe Current project(s): Gorch Fock restoration 1:100, Billing Wasa (bust) - 1:100 Billings, Great Harry (bust) 1:88 ex. Sergal 1:65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClipperFan Posted July 28 Share #171 Posted July 28 2 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said: There's a racing dog like that on the sides of Greyhound buses ... better in 3D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClipperFan Posted July 28 Share #172 Posted July 28 (edited) 3 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said: There's a racing dog like that on the sides of Greyhound buses ... better in 3D. @Snug Harbor Johnny True. But since the dashing dog on the bus line was introduced in 1929 and McKay's clipper Stag Hound launched in 1850, it could be said that they drew their inspiration from the earlier ship. Here is possibly the.earliest depiction of McKay's famous ship, from "Some Ships of the Clipper Ship Era" State Street Trust Co, Boston, MA 1913. Look closely, you'll see a sprinting dog reminiscent of those on modern buses. As you can see from Rob's delicate miniature carving, it's patterned after a real staghound photo. When I came up with my stag hound figurehead, it required more than a few sketches to capture the right feel. That's due to the fact that the figurehead's body needs to correspond with the navel hood it's attached to above. Meanwhile, the dog's head needs to face directly forward. To get this pose requires a pooch that realistically simulates leaping up at an angle. Draw a horizontal line at the base of their paws and you'll see what I'm describing. All this and it needs to look totally natural too. Trickier than it looks. Edited July 28 by ClipperFan additional information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwiederrich Posted July 28 Author Share #173 Posted July 28 Indeed you are correct. The head needs to be slightly elevated to accommodate the curve of the hood. I finished guilding the Staghound. what ya think? FriedClams, rybakov, uscharin and 2 others 3 2 Quote Current build: Build log: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25382-glory-of-the-seas-medium-clipper-1869-by-rwiederrich-196 Finished build: Build log: of 1/128th Great Republic: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13740-great-republic-by-rwiederrich-four-masted-extreme-clipper-1853/# Current build(On hold): Build log: 1/96 Donald McKay:http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4522-donald-mckay-medium-clipper-by-rwiederrich-1855/ Completed build: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/gallery/album/475-196-cutty-sark-plastic/ The LORD said, "See, I have set (them) aside...with skills of all kinds, to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver, and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of crafts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted July 28 Share #174 Posted July 28 Excellent result. You now only need a ship to attach it to. FriedClams, ClipperFan and Glen McGuire 1 2 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted July 28 Share #175 Posted July 28 My apologies for confusing the issue of the depth of keel. Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClipperFan Posted July 28 Share #176 Posted July 28 4 minutes ago, druxey said: Excellent result. You now only need a ship to attach it to. @druxey picky-picky..... Maybe if you stop obsessing with structural minutia like the @#$$ size of the keel... 😉 real progress can be made! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClipperFan Posted July 28 Share #177 Posted July 28 15 minutes ago, rwiederrich said: Indeed you are correct. The head needs to be slightly elevated to accommodate the curve of the hood. I finished guilding the Staghound. what ya think? @rwiederrich Rob, man you work fast! I love the fine details, tiny eyes, ears and open jaw. This is going to look dazzling against a black background embellished with more gold carvings... Suddenly, I'm thinking back to a stunning golden girl, splayed out on bed while Shirley Bassey belts out a powerful tune.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClipperFan Posted July 28 Share #178 Posted July 28 (edited) 18 minutes ago, druxey said: My apologies for confusing the issue of the depth of keel. @druxey no apology necessary. You're just trying to help out. I take no offense. I am just truly grateful that Cornelius McKay left us exact dimensions. Edited July 28 by ClipperFan grammar correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANYAN Posted July 28 Share #179 Posted July 28 Hi Rob, I go away for a couple of week's holiday and return to find another wonderful clipper project on the go. Sorry to latch onto the coat tails of the project so far along, but it looks like this will be another entertaining log and great build. I hope there is still room to jostle into the peanut gallery? cheers Pat FriedClams, Glen McGuire and ClipperFan 3 Quote If at first you do not suceed, try, and then try again!Current build: HMCSS Victoria (Scratch) Next build: HMAS Vampire (3D printed resin, scratch 1:350) Built: Battle Station (Scratch) and HM Bark Endeavour 1768 (kit 1:64) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClipperFan Posted July 28 Share #180 Posted July 28 14 minutes ago, BANYAN said: Hi Rob, I go away for a couple of week's holiday and return to find another wonderful clipper project on the go. Sorry to latch onto the coat tails of the project so far along, but it looks like this will be another entertaining log and great build. I hope there is still room to jostle into the peanut gallery? cheers Pat @BANYAN Welcome aboard! We're much closer to nailing this vessel's hull down. We have two very talented computer programming artists, @Vladimir_Wairoa and @Luis Felipe working hard to reconcile conflicting body plans. Once that's resolved, Rob will be off to the races! Just remember to bring enough popcorn for everybody.... 😉 Glen McGuire, BANYAN and FriedClams 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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