Hi - first post here

[Scrumpymanjack]

Hi all. Thanks for this excellent and informative forum as I work my way through the content. Fascinating. 

 

I was led here by something that my father bought when he was an antiques dealer in London in the 1970s, and which is now mine. 

 

I'm not looking for a valuation since it's value to me has nothing to do with money. But I would appreciate any pointers as to its age etc. I'm afraid it's very dusty and the rigging is starting to suffer a little - issues I'll fix very soon. 

 

Again, any history or information would be much appreciated. 

 

Thank you. 

[GrandpaPhil]

Welcome!

[Scrumpymanjack]

3 hours ago, GrandpaPhil said:

Welcome!

Thank you! 

[Knocklouder]

This is the place to be  , I did a simple Google  search  for your model Bombay Star, I entered Bombay Star model ship, got two model company's with loads of info for her. Hope this helps, welcome aboard MSW/NRG   

Bob  M.

Edited Friday at 03:35 PM by Knocklouder
Guessing typos lol

[Scrumpymanjack]

4 hours ago, Knocklouder said:

This is the place to be  , I did a simple Google  search  for your model Bombay Star, I entered Bombay Star model ship, got two model company's with loads of info for her. Hope this helps, welcome aboard MSW/NRG   

Bob  M.

Thanks, Bob. Yes, I did all of that before posting here. Found that it was most likely an East India Company ship etc. a "grab". I was wondering whether the pictures left any clues as to how old this particular model was. I always assumed it was an antique (my father was an antiques dealer) but perhaps it's not that old. Anyway, thanks for your help. It's a great forum. 

[ccoyle]

Hi, Scrumpy.

 

Your model does not look like the ones offered online, none of which (as far as i could find) are even named Bombay Star. To me, your model looks to be scratch-built by someone with at least a modicum of nautical knowledge, e.g., the deck furniture is positioned correctly, the rigging looks generally correct, etc. In fact, the model also includes chainplates that are secured to the inside of the bulwarks, rather than the outside, a practice that I believe became commonplace in the second half of the 19th century. As far as dating the model, that's anyone's guess.

[Keith Black]

 Welcome to MSW. Glad to have you aboard.

[Kenchington]

3 hours ago, Scrumpymanjack said:

most likely an East India Company ship

I'd say the intent was to model a ship from long after the HEIC lost its monopoly on shipping to the East: As Chris noted, the chainplates are inboard, so later 19th-Century. Then again, she is very bluff in the bow at deck level (though sharp below the waterline), which looks more like the pre-clipper generation of (relatively) fast ships -- "square as a brick, fore and aft" as was said of them at the time. Yet the model has some features reminiscent of Cutty Sark, so I'll guess that the builder was inspired by the last of the tea clippers but didn't get the proportions right.

 

Curiously, while there have been ships called "Bombay Star" in the past half-century, Google doesn't find me any record of a sailing ship of that name. So the model is someone's attempt to represent a generic sailing ship of the (very roughly) 1860--1880 period.

 

I did wonder whether it might have been a sailor-made model. Those tended towards very realistic details but poor overall proportions. However, your model misses too much of the realism (note the fore topsail sheet bits placed on the forecastle head, rather than at the foot of the mast, and the hood over the forecastle companionway that would obstruct use of the capstan ahead of it). So I would guess a model by an on-shore enthusiast. Could have been made at any time in the past 150 years.

 

But perhaps you can make out something on the house flag (near the top of the mainmast)? I think I can see an A and an L but anything else is lost in your photos.

 

 

Trevor

[Scrumpymanjack]

9 hours ago, Kenchington said:

I'd say the intent was to model a ship from long after the HEIC lost its monopoly on shipping to the East: As Chris noted, the chainplates are inboard, so later 19th-Century. Then again, she is very bluff in the bow at deck level (though sharp below the waterline), which looks more like the pre-clipper generation of (relatively) fast ships -- "square as a brick, fore and aft" as was said of them at the time. Yet the model has some features reminiscent of Cutty Sark, so I'll guess that the builder was inspired by the last of the tea clippers but didn't get the proportions right.

 

Curiously, while there have been ships called "Bombay Star" in the past half-century, Google doesn't find me any record of a sailing ship of that name. So the model is someone's attempt to represent a generic sailing ship of the (very roughly) 1860--1880 period.

 

I did wonder whether it might have been a sailor-made model. Those tended towards very realistic details but poor overall proportions. However, your model misses too much of the realism (note the fore topsail sheet bits placed on the forecastle head, rather than at the foot of the mast, and the hood over the forecastle companionway that would obstruct use of the capstan ahead of it). So I would guess a model by an on-shore enthusiast. Could have been made at any time in the past 150 years.

 

But perhaps you can make out something on the house flag (near the top of the mainmast)? I think I can see an A and an L but anything else is lost in your photos.

 

 

Trevor

Hi Trevor,

 

So grateful for your observations, insight and analysis. It's super interesting and very helpful. Here are some images of the flags, which I should have included in my original post, of course!

 

 

 

 

 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  'Looks like this would be a GREAT model to gently restore, and a good way to get some experience with rigging without first having to build a  hull and outfit the deck.  The paper flags have deteriorated, so you could re-create them.  The rigging might also be on the weak side, so replacement with scale rope from Siren or Ropes of Scale can insure a long future life for the model.  Take pictures so you can replace existing rigging the same way. There are fife rails near the base of the masts, but you can also add a few pin rails inside the bulwarks if you opt to add additional lines.  The yards are tied to the masts, so that can be re-done, or you can opt to add yokes/parrels and add halyards.  The sails can be replaced (if fragile) by finer material.

  Once the yards and rigging are cleared (the masts can be left in place if they won't pull out), dusting and perhaps a few touch ups will freshen the hull and deck.  Then re-assemble and think about a case to limit future dust accumulation.

 

Fair sailing !!   Johnny

[Kenchington]

Top image is the Blue Peter at the foremast head -- traditional signal that a ship was ready to sail. (The same flag is now P, or "Papa" in the NATO phonetic alphabet, with much the same meaning.)

 

The bottom image probably began as an attempt to show the ship's own identification "Number" (actually a group of four letters -- nowadays far more often used as radio call sign), plus her ensign. As it has fallen from the rigging, the group of flags has become inverted. The bottom (originally top) is the (British) Red Ensign, with most of its length broken away but the Union still visible in the upper canton. Next is code flag H. The blue saltire on a white field is not a flag of the modern International Code but that has changed a bit over the decades, so I'll not say it was wrong for the era represented. There were probably two other flags (now lost) to complete the "Number".

 

The middle image is the owners House Flag. Someone may know whether any real-world owner used that design, though it could have been the model-builder's imagination (probably with L for "Line"). Alternatively, I wonder whether the builder "signed" his model by putting his initials there. He may have been A.L.

 

 

Trevor

[Keith Black]

6 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

Once the yards and rigging are cleared (the masts can be left in place if they won't pull out), dusting and perhaps a few touch ups will freshen the hull and deck.  Then re-assemble and think about a case to limit future dust accumulation.

 And this is how one becomes a ship modeler. It's a deep rabbit hole but cozy if you like creating and working with your hands. 

Edited Saturday at 08:34 PM by Keith Black

[Scrumpymanjack]

20 hours ago, ccoyle said:

Hi, Scrumpy.

 

Your model does not look like the ones offered online, none of which (as far as i could find) are even named Bombay Star. To me, your model looks to be scratch-built by someone with at least a modicum of nautical knowledge, e.g., the deck furniture is positioned correctly, the rigging looks generally correct, etc. In fact, the model also includes chainplates that are secured to the inside of the bulwarks, rather than the outside, a practice that I believe became commonplace in the second half of the 19th century. As far as dating the model, that's anyone's guess.

Thanks, Chris. This is very useful. Appreciate your knowledge and thoughts. 

[Scrumpymanjack]

2 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  'Looks like this would be a GREAT model to gently restore, and a good way to get some experience with rigging without first having to build a  hull and outfit the deck.  The paper flags have deteriorated, so you could re-create them.  The rigging might also be on the weak side, so replacement with scale rope from Siren or Ropes of Scale can insure a long future life for the model.  Take pictures so you can replace existing rigging the same way. There are fife rails near the base of the masts, but you can also add a few pin rails inside the bulwarks if you opt to add additional lines.  The yards are tied to the masts, so that can be re-done, or you can opt to add yokes/parrels and add halyards.  The sails can be replaced (if fragile) by finer material.

  Once the yards and rigging are cleared (the masts can be left in place if they won't pull out), dusting and perhaps a few touch ups will freshen the hull and deck.  Then re-assemble and think about a case to limit future dust accumulation.

 

Fair sailing !!   Johnny

Amazing, Johnny. Thanks for the suggestion. Given my total lack of experience in this, I think I'll avoid taking any of that on. But I also think this could be an antique so would prefer to keep it original - even if there is some deterioration. I'll just clean it carefully as a first step and take things from there. 

[Keith Black]

 The rigging is more than likely cotton thread/line, it will only continue to deteriorate. I daresay in another 20 years  most of the rigging will be in shambles. The only "fix" is to replace the rotten cotton thread with polyester. If the model is important to you, you or someone needs to see to a proper restoration of the rigging, IMHO. 

[Scrumpymanjack]

5 hours ago, Kenchington said:

Top image is the Blue Peter at the foremast head -- traditional signal that a ship was ready to sail. (The same flag is now P, or "Papa" in the NATO phonetic alphabet, with much the same meaning.)

 

The bottom image probably began as an attempt to show the ship's own identification "Number" (actually a group of four letters -- nowadays far more often used as radio call sign), plus her ensign. As it has fallen from the rigging, the group of flags has become inverted. The bottom (originally top) is the (British) Red Ensign, with most of its length broken away but the Union still visible in the upper canton. Next is code flag H. The blue saltire on a white field is not a flag of the modern International Code but that has changed a bit over the decades, so I'll not say it was wrong for the era represented. There were probably two other flags (now lost) to complete the "Number".

 

The middle image is the owners House Flag. Someone may know whether any real-world owner used that design, though it could have been the model-builder's imagination (probably with L for "Line"). Alternatively, I wonder whether the builder "signed" his model by putting his initials there. He may have been A.L.

 

 

Trevor

Thanks, Trevor. I'm super grateful for all of this information. I remember playing with this model when I was about five years old 57 now). I used to put little plastic soldiers on the deck (carefully, thank goodness!) and play for hours. It's lovely finally to be able to find out something about it - even if it seems impossible to date the build. Thank you. 

[Ronald-V]

[Scrumpymanjack]

10 hours ago, Ronald-V said:

 

Thank you!

[SaltyScot]

Welcome aboard mate. That is a fine old model, one that does need some tlc but, like others have said, not beyond the realms of possibility to accomplish. Have fun with that!