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Posted (edited)

Ok, let's talk about something we guys know more about: ze big guns.

Or at least we think we do.

In the past, model guns were mostly rotational pieces, and only larger-scale models were retrofitted with details such as ignition pans and coats of arms. These were custom-made or complex castings. With the printing the excuse of the effort involved no longer applies. That's why I finally finished the new guns for my Victory.

And here starts a new point of discussion about how to present the guns. Not saying that the classical we usually show is wrong, but as an opener for mind and possibilities. Just to stir things up 😉

The version we usually show is with an exposed touch hole and without a tompion is simply how we know these things from museums and recovered from wrecks long time ago.

But in real seafaring life this appearance was probably rather rare, it was probably mostly different:
There are enough orders, records and wreck finds that describe the guns as most of the times ‘loaded’ during the period of 1800 and before. This also means that the powder charge stored inside the barrel had to be protected from water and moisture. For this purpose, tompions, simple wooden turned parts, were used as plugs at the front. They can be seen in many paintings, mostly white.

The sensitive touch hole also had to be protected. Lead covers were used for this purpose, which protected the touch hole of dirt and, if the gun was equipped with one, the gunlock, and above all protected the hole against fire and sparks.

When the gun was made ready for battle, the tompion was removed as late as possible and the cover of the touch hole was removed also only shortly before the shot was to be fired.

Thus, in real life, there were mainly the following 2 conditions:
- Stowed, lashed down, run out with cover over the touch hole or gunlock and with tompion
- Shortly before firing, without cover over the touch hole or gunlock and without tompion

Here we have the triad of touch hole, gunlock and cover in comparison:

Victory-Guns-250810_3393.jpg.739aa796ed6d75e045e7eaf039c99711.jpg
Victory-Guns-250810_3400.jpg.f28003af01e283abf5c741fcd6d01a3a.jpg


And here are the five gun sizes required for the Victory:
32-pounder medium lower battery deck, 24-pounder medium middle battery deck, 12-pounder long upper battery deck, 12-pounder medium aft, 12-pounder short quarterdeck.


The classic ‘pure’ representation with open touch hole
 

Victory-Guns-250810_3481.jpg.3ae3738c9c7260fc70095e8a5df95d4e.jpg
Victory-Guns-250810_3491.jpg.a1b7e2e550e58b0f866ce9e6fff082fc.jpg
Victory-Guns-250810_3500.jpg.643ada07a3edcfe29410ede5ab2257c0.jpg

With gun lock. It is worth considering that the tompion could also be set if the enemy is not yet within firing range.
 

Victory-Guns-250810_3449.jpg.f759227b9e86677143da0a28b98a29a7.jpg
Victory-Guns-250810_3460.jpg.7ca918e05dc2b879ec2251879a0aa08d.jpg
Victory-Guns-250810_3471.jpg.eb1aca9a85c937e43cc65c69e8ccc144.jpg

And with cover and tompion.
Victory-Guns-250810_3414.jpg.6daffdb15ab9e214048e5f581812f767.jpg

Victory-Guns-250810_3422.jpg.e73a8a3d17deeecbb62f0e1f725d3cdb.jpg
Victory-Guns-250810_3444.jpg.97426894d38048d7a33caf04f920b5b5.jpg


I adapted the colour of the lead covers to the artefacts from Thorsminde. The same applies to the fastening holes. This also results in the rear fastening via the ring, as all other types of fastening would slip off.
The colours of the tompions – natural wood, white, red – are taken from the artefacts and paintings and should, of course, be uniform on the model. The wood-coloured ones were probably the most common, as the tompions were carried as prefabricated spindles in sets of about a dozen and simply sawed off as needed. I doubt that they were painted every time.


Side discussion:
Also this involves in my humble opinion the presentation of the tackles. If stowed it is clear that those have to be properly set to hold the gun, plenty of drawings show this. If ran out but gun secured (Touch hole and muzzle protected) those tackles should be secured too but probably not laying on deck. If ran out for "clear for action“ (touchhole and possibly muzzle protected) the tackles should be open, but secured on the carriage, the free ends in a way that it wont become knotted. And just straight before the shot: no muzzle, gunlock or vent hole open and the tackles be held by the crew.

Is there any place for the nice spirals we like to show, especially with an tackle not made fast? Try this in real life and the guns will run amok at the first wave ...


To sum the theme up, here are two scale pictures of the barrels shown above  🙂
 

Victory-Guns-250810_3518.jpg.34c9d75535319883ccf5a6dd68ead38c.jpg
Victory-Guns-250810_3524.jpg.ad27d918da95fbfb0518ce1ccd50ff2c.jpg

Enjoy 🙂

XXXDAn

Edited by dafi

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/76-hms-victory-by-dafi-to-victory-and-beyond/

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit), USS Constitution 1:96 (Revell) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

Posted

Very  nice, Dafi. However, the guns I've seen that were fitted with locks had their mounting holes offset on the right edge of the pan (the rectangular raised area that the vent hole was bored through) as seen from the breech end. The gunlock was mounted there with two thumbscrews.

 

Early gunlocks were experimented with in the late 1720's by the French and were in general use by the British by the late 1780's (Caruana).

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Posted (edited)

Thank you very much druxey.

 

I took the orientation from the picts of Victory´s guns, but without this hint the side shift wasn´t to realise for me. Too much black barrel around 😉

 

victory-kanonen10.jpg.3d4fa7e63e0d3ab28a1202692152d441.jpg

 

No problem to move to the side. The advantage of printing.

 

So the artefact of the cover in Thorsminde also could be complet? I always guessed that one side broke off. But seen the assymetrical position it could be still intact?

Thorsminde_5290.jpg.0e9e5f0a031c2640a6e407eaae31c933.jpg

XXXDAn

 

Edited by dafi

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/76-hms-victory-by-dafi-to-victory-and-beyond/

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit), USS Constitution 1:96 (Revell) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Thank you druxey for your kind corrections!

 

All the pictures that I have from Victiry´s guns are that bad in quality, that I only was able to see it once I knew what to look for.

 

Here are some better ones from the dutch Rijksmuseum showing the principle (Both pictures are not the same lock!)

 

 

f222t10114p238274n3_StzkRxYl.png

f222t10114p238274n2_ItXeqQYK.png

 

A TREATISE ON NAVAL GUNNERY

by GENERAL SIR HOWARD DOUGLAS, Bart.
FOURHT EDITION, REVISED, 1855

Page 397ff
SECTION III - ON LOCKS AND TUBES FOR NAVAL ORDNANCE.

370. The general introduction of flint-locks into the
British naval service resulted from the efficient firing
of the " Duke," of 98 guns, on a celebrated occasion,
that ship having been previously fully equipped with
gun-locks by her captain, the late Sir Charles Douglas,
who commanded her from April, 1778, till November,
1781, when he was removed into the " Formidable," as
Captain of the Fleet, in which ship he likewise intro
duced these and other improvements in naval artillery.
The equipment of the "Duke" with flint-locks to all
her guns was effected in a manner so characteristic of
the ardour and energy of that enlightened and scientific
officer, that the author trusts he may be excused for
adverting to it in a brief statement of facts, which will,
perhaps, be deemed somewhat interesting by the pro
fessional reader.
On Sir Charles Douglas's appointment to the " Duke,"
he brought before the Admiralty and the Ordnance
several propositions for improving, facilitating, and
quickening the service of naval ordnance. The car
tridges were at that time all made of paper, which
required the operation of worming guns after every
discharge, on account of the lower end of a papercartridge
remaining generally at the bottom of the bore
in a state of ignition. To obviate this, Sir Charles
Douglas proposed that the cartridges should be made of
flannel. He recommended, and urged repeatedly, the
full equipment of his ship with flint-locks, by which
the use of the slow-match and the powder-horn for
priming might more or less be discontinued ; and as
tin tubes would manifestly be dangerous and highly
objectionable on the fighting decks of a ship, he recom
mended that quill-tubes should be substituted for them.

371. Neither of these propositions was immediately
or fully adopted ; paper-cartridges, the match, and the
priming-horn continued for some years in general use.
It appears by official documents * that no locks were supplied
during 1778 to the " Duke" at Plymouth, where
she was commissioned in April of that year ; but in the
following year she was furnished, at Portsmouth, with
two locks for 24-pounders, four locks for 12-pounders,
and two for 6-pounders ; total eight locks. Yet the
" Duke " was fully equipped with gun-locks in the celebrated
victory of the 12th of April, 1782, to which that
ship and the other three-deckers, the " Formidable " and
the " Namur," so greatly contributed. By what means
then had the " Duke," in the previous years, been completed
with these important implements ? By Sir
Charles Douglas, out of his own funds and by his own
energies : he bought a sufficient number of common
musket-locks, which being let into pieces of wood, as
into the stock of a musket, might then be fastened with
iron wire to the guns." He purchased flannels sufficient
to make bottoms for paper-cartridges, goose-quills for
tubes, and the ingredients necessary to fill and prime
them.
On Sir Charles Douglas's appointment to be Captain
of the Fleet he was succeeded in the command of the
" Duke" by Captain, afterwards Lord Gardner ; and, in
the battle of the ensuing year, the quick and efficient
firing of that ship was so conspicuous and powerful as
to enable the gallant Gardner to widen the gap which
his leaders had made in the enemy's line, and so open
the way for Rodney to pass to a memorable victory.
That glorious day settled the question of the locks, by
bearing down all further opposition to the introduction
of improvements which the prejudices of the time deemed
useless and unnecessary refinements ;* but that battle
having likewise put an end to the maritime part of the
war, no measures for the supply of locks to naval ordnance
appear to have been taken till 1790, when " brass
locks'" of a new pattern were provided, and continued
in general use throughout the late war. These no doubt
contributed greatly to the efficiency of our practice, to
the accuracy and rapidity of which all French authors
attribute the superiority of our gunnery in the actions
and battles of the early part of the war, the French not
having adopted locks till 1800.

372. The flint-locks of the pattern of 1790 remained
in general use till 1818, when the double-flinted lock,
likewise adopted by the French, of the author's invention,
a drawing of which was given in the former editions of
this work, was ordered for general use in the navy.

[...]

Edited by dafi

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/76-hms-victory-by-dafi-to-victory-and-beyond/

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit), USS Constitution 1:96 (Revell) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

Posted (edited)

So one never stop learning, one never stop learning ...

So, the gunlock has been moved to the correct position, and I hope it's now a little closer to the original 🙂

Flanged to the starboard side of the ignition pan of the barrel, the retaining bolt(s) pass horizontally through it, so the barrel itself does not need to be weakened. The pan of the lock protrudes above the pan of the barrel.
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3597.jpg.8ba32ac52701e24a74a94ba265bba14e.jpg
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3605.jpg.80797323b4cf1e05d066e0da50de89a0.jpg
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3698.jpg.95b2d901706b821b5f7e13124b201299.jpg
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3617.jpg.b48b9ac2d42ad53d3295959713b2d0e4.jpg

There were also corresponding changes to the lead cover, with the cap moving slightly off-centre.

Victory-gun-locks-250819_3644.jpg.5fc6c8d62f4460d8a4e27a2bed0ae6ee.jpg
Accordingly, there are again three variants of the representation, with cover, flintlock and open ignition pan.
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3721.jpg.892401b6c0b2d37181101724e7acee27.jpg
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3718.jpg.8f9217c33ac0b705547ea8b6e67eaeb1.jpg
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3715.jpg.a08843dc76bc3745f7af4ba13fcb0de9.jpg
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3638.jpg.20dc17692a9e77fe2a9f51034a7242cf.jpg
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3635.jpg.803d4f271cbb2a0baddeb1533d63c744.jpg
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3709.jpg.ac684ec7c133922fae9775d6f3257d77.jpg
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3703.jpg.22ad04941b2eb9a086e2699274b06b0d.jpg

The flintlock shows that the printer is at its limit, and when the metallic paint is added, it looks a bit washed out in close-up. Here is the lock with just primer, which adheres better.

Victory-gun-locks-250819_3778.jpg.a5077f7ae115dad2c53905f807ad2e32.jpg
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3763.jpg.c4bbcba3cb67b6587cfc07ae7be0f92b.jpg
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3760.jpg.1db9905689f89919313ee9a24d2b3535.jpg
And here is the dimensions-based visualisation.
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3729.jpg.76d20b5034af57cd14c635548b550120.jpg
Victory-gun-locks-250819_3739.jpg.025442adbe4ce1b7dcb972492ff43f60.jpg
Have fun 🙂

XXXDAn

Edited by dafi

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/76-hms-victory-by-dafi-to-victory-and-beyond/

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit), USS Constitution 1:96 (Revell) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

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