Sail feedback request, Mondfeld method

[travis]

Looking for some community feedback.  I'm starting sails for my third build, Occre Apostle Felipe.  So approx 17th century spanish galleon from the silver fleet (mexico).  Each build I've tried a different sail strategy.  This time, I've used a lot of reference on this build from Wolfram Mondfeld's book,  historic ship models. I noticed he has a unique sail making approach that i don't think I've seen on any posts here.  His approach is press/steam a seam for each panel of the sail and then straight stich those seams.  So a bit more than just using the stitch to create the panels but an actual hem.  It's a lot of work.  Also quite hard to steam the small seams at a consistent width and sew the seams.  In my attempt, I have a 3mm overlap of fabric which results in about 12mm panels (model scale is 1:60).  Interested in everyone's feedback before I commit to all the sails.  This one is a spritsail.  First image is the sample before hemming the edges.  Second image is the sail supplied by occre which is of course to heavy a fabric.  Constructive criticism acceptable!

 

[travis]

Here's holding to the light to see the overlapping hem better.

 

[druxey]

You've done a very neat job, but there is basic problem of scale. You mention 1:60, and one can never stitch that finely to be even close to scale, as well as the material is over scale thickness. What youa re doing is also very labor-intensive. Now, if that's the way you want to do it, read no further!

 

A better way, IMHO, is to uses the material called SilkSpan. It is essentially a thin but strong paper product. The overlaps can be easily simulated with acrylic paint applied using a bow pen. The reinforcing edges are glued and rope also applied using white glue or matte acrylic varnish. An example is pictured below at 1:48 scale. Instructions of how to make sails using this technique are available through SeaWatchBooks:

 

https://seawatchbooks.com/products/swan-iv-sail-making-supplement-from-the-revised-and-expanded-edition-by-david-antscherl

 

 

[Kenchington]

I have to agree with @druxey. In fact, as I move towards sailmaking for my current build, I was going to post something about scales and sails. I'll not put that here but the points I may yet work towards are (1) if you can see the warp and weft of your canvas, then it is out of scale and (2) unless you can make cross-stitches at finer than 200 to the inch, then any sewing will probably be out of scale too.

 

When sailmaking by hand, stitch size depends on needle size and needle size has to match the weight of the canvas. I have a bag made, by the sailmaker on the big Russian barque Sedov, from a fragment of one of his ship's old sails -- so some synthetic equivalent to double-ought storm canvas. He worked four stitches to the inch -- 240 to the inch at 1:60. Good luck trying to replicate that!

 

Anyone who likes the look of sewn model sails should go with their preference, of course, but they won't be to scale.

 

Trevor

[Kenchington]

Maybe I should add some other evidence. These are modern synthetics (probably Dacron) and machine-stitched but a full-size squarerigger's sails, when in use, can look like:

Note that seams, tablings and various reinforcing pieces are visible but stitches are not.

 

Alternatively, in close-up, the same sails look like:

Hand-woven flax-and-hemp sailcloth would have a much coarser weave, of course (and hand-stitching doesn't give the zigzag effect). But an argument for the Silkspan approach anyway.

 

Trevor

[JerryTodd]

There's way too much focus on seams.  The only reason you see seam on real sails is because the material is 4 layers thick (2 layers on modern sails), and that's when the light's behind them.  When the light's in front, you see the shadow of the edge of the seam.  Most kits run in the 1:64 to 1:48 scale range, for square-riggers, and the thread in those stitch-line "seams" scale from the size of a man's wrist, up to nearly the size of a tow-cable in diameter! - a bit much to represent a shadow.
Most kits, especially the ones anyone can afford, are filled with parts-bin parts that don't match the model's scale, and wind up being much to oversized and clunky looking, and in rare cases, under-sized and diminutive.  Any sail-cloth included is usually some burlap looking muslin scraps from an upholstery shop, that sometimes they run some anchor-chain through to save you the time making them even worst.
I personally think the best approach is to imply the shadow of the seams by drawing them on with fine (.03) permanent marker.  I draw all the seams on one side of the sail, and again on the other side just a little off to imply seam width.
My sails may not be fair representations as they are made for working models at a larger scale than most static models (1:36 & 1:20), but they do show the effect of drawn seams, which also don't suffer from puckering the way stitch-line seams do.

(click the pics till you get them full-size)

  

 

 

The actual boat for comparison...

 

Edited Friday at 02:23 AM by JerryTodd

[travis]

Thank all, I keep reading about silkspan but hadn't gotten the initiative to give it a try yet, in part becuase it's not a available at the local hobby shop and there seems to be a lot of "fake named" products online? Just trying to find a good supplier thats in the US (darn tarrifs!) thats not overcharging or excesive shipping.  

 

I did try an interesting aproach on my first build (a schooner).  On that one i used a light fabric and carefully "pulled" a single thread out where each seam would be.  Still of course out of scale but a pretty cool look for a larger scale build (1:40 I think?).  Can't get it to work on a tighter weave fabric though.  

 

I think i will make a try for sourcing the silkspan/modelspan first and if that doesn't work out I'll go for the penciled fabric.

[Y.T.]

Finding a silkspan is not a problem. I got as much of it as I wanted here:

 

https://sigmfg.com/products/sig-silkspan-tissue

 

I just want to warn you that from my own experience I tried making the sail from it and abandoned the idea later. Silkspan is way too brittle and impossible to repair. I spent a week working on one sail and got it torn off in a second. Since then I abandoned the idea of silkspan. I work with very light batiste. You can look at my endeavors here. First picture of broken silkspan sail. Next is from thin fabric. Scale is 1:90

 

 

[travis]

@Y.T. I was wondering about the durability.  I wonder if it can be layered/laminated for strength?

 

That batiste fabric sounds interesting though too.  Going to look that up.

[Dr PR]

Silkspan is the way to go for sails at the smaller scales (1:48 and smaller). The thinnest grade (SIGST001) is approximately scale thickness for 1:48 to 1:72 scale.

 

When wet it is VERY fragile, but when it is dry it is very tough. It became popular for wing and fuselage coverings on flying model airplanes.

 

Here are some links telling my experiences making sails from it. There was a learning curve, but the results are pretty good.

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-finished-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=1035898

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-finished-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=1035392

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-finished-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=1039363

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-finished-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=1049586

 

In my opinion those heavy cloth stitched sails that come with kits look awful!

 

[wefalck]

There have been several threads quite recently discussing the various, closer-to-scale materials and methods for making sails.

 

Silkspan and modelspan can mean different things in different parts of the world: it can be long-fibre paper originating in Japan (going down to 9 g/m2 weigh) and it can be a relative loose-woven light-weight fabric (as low as 14 g/m2). The original use of the latter probably was for serigraphy or silk-screen printing. There was a time, when both material were readily available from model shops, but have been replaced by various plastic films, I think.

 

I first had the idea of using the fabric some 45+ years ago, when working in 1:60 scale. I saturated it with casein-paint (in those pre-acrylic days) and cut the sails from this. Later, I did the same with fast-drying varnish, cut individual panels from them and mounted them to give the sails. Douplings were also glued on using varnish. The assembly was then spray-painted with acrylics. Putting the sail together from individual panels just gives a hint of the seams due to the light shadow along the edge. The sails are not translucent though,

 

In smaller scales (say 1:100) the fabric is too coarse and still too thick, so I used the same method, but with the paper. Although the varnish makes for a relatively strong bond, this method is more suitable for set sails, rather then brailed or furled ones.

 

In all the cases the bolt-ropes were glued on after the sails had been painted.

 

In my new project at 1:160 I will try @druxey's method with seams drawn-on using a bow-pen, as the sails are to be displayed hanging loose and being draped over stays etc. for drying. Sails made from individual panels would be too stiff for that purpose.

 

I think the general consensus these days is that, unless you are building a working model, sewn fabric sails are just out of scale in most cases and modellers should abandon this age-old idea.

 

[druxey]

Curious. I've never known real Silkspan to tear like that. It is, in fact, very strong. Are you sure that this was, in fact, SilkSpan?

[Y.T.]

1 hour ago, druxey said:

Curious. I've never known real Silkspan to tear like that. It is, in fact, very strong. Are you sure that this was, in fact, SilkSpan?

If you ask me, I have no reason to question the product. I purchased Silkspan here:

 

https://sigmfg.com/products/sig-silkspan-tissue

 

As I said earlier. I will no longer consider any paper product for sails unless may be for furled sails. It is easy to tear and cannot be repaired if damaged. The full story of my Silkspan use attempt is here:

 

https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/hms-victory-by-y-t-mamoli-1-90-scale.2397/post-467322

 

Edited Saturday at 02:27 PM by Y.T.

[clarkt]

I have used both fabric and silkspan for sails and a flag on four of my models and agree that the silkspan, following David Antscherl's method is by far the best.   The fabric sails were sewn by a friend of mine, an expert seamstress.  She did a beautiful job but, still, the stitches are way out of scale.  Using the Swan Class books addendum I went through the entire process to see how it would go, even though they are furled on the model.  It is true there are some tense moments while the paper is wet, but they are surprisingly strong when dry.  One other thing:  I bought additional paper to make sure I didn't run out and the new product was much weaker and difficult when wet than the first batch.  That was Guillows brand.  I'll try the Sig brand next time.
 

[travis]

Anyone have a recommended US vendor (besides SIG if their product is possibly not durable enough)?

[Ferrus Manus]

Personally, I swear by silkspan. You can buy it all over the United States, and I'm sure eBay or Amazon sells it. I have used multiple different thicknesses of silkspan and never, ever had any issues even when the material was wet. The only tears I have had using silkspan sails were completely my fault and not that of the product, and were pretty easily fixable because they were small. Making a scale-accurate sail never takes me more than about a day. You can even replicate things like tarpaulins using silkspan- really any cloth product present on a real ship can be accurately represented.